envyizm

Doesn't look like we'll be getting an update this week from wyrd. Any of you wyrdos across the pond get a confirmation email for your TOS order? Last week's update kinda expedited my already fleeting patience for delivery of this product.

32 minutes ago, -Loki- said:

Did the people who aren’t getting it join late with backerkit or join during the KS?

Seems they got the email list from the KS. Backerkit gets information from KS but doesn’t feed information to it.

Add one to the pool of bk backers without a PDF download email.

54 minutes ago, retnab said:

Even just up to Canada it's regularly about half the total price of the order again. Whoever they're using for this, I hope they make this a permanent shipping deal, it makes a huge difference.

Guess I can't complain too much about their bulk shipping method as the delay created seems to open things up for people in other countries. It's easy to forget about how ludicrous shipping can be for international customers considering wyrd ships stateside.

If the delay is worth the value in shipping for you guys across the pond (or perceived boarders), it works for me. I think wyrd actually made more sales in the UK than state side. I wasn't entirely aware of just how large wyrds international following was until I checked out the stats on the KS website.

3 hours ago, -Loki- said:

Because, from the sound of it, they're using bulk distribution centers. That's how we got such huge shipping discounts. My order of two full commander pledges plus their entire factions cost me less to ship than my usual gencon order direct from Wyrd.

That means they're bulk shipping the whole areas product to a distribution center, who then break it down and ship individually. Wyrd couldn't give us such cheap shipping if they sent it piecemeal.

Okay, that makes sense as to why they're waiting on the last shipment. I typically do walk in purchases from my LGS, instead of ordering through wyrd just for sheer ease of access. However, I've made Easter/gencon/etc purchases through wyrd, but it's usually combining an order with friends and splitting the cost of shipping. Shipping stateside is usually pretty cheap regardless though. When I got the bill for backerkit, it seemed like a pretty typical rate for shipping at a glance. Might be more beneficial for international backers.

9 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

 This would increase potential members of TOS community and allow youtuber's and painters to start reviewing the product ahead of the release. Generating much needed free marketing.

Its pretty likely that there are some non wyrdos out there supporting the KS and BK initiative for TOS as well as youtubers and painters. If they actually get our kits out before the initial release, the games backers will most definitely generate that kind of marketing without potentially generating resentment from their backers. 

With that said, my pledge was meant to bring a few of my friends into the TOS gaming community. Hence, why my patience for the unnecessary delays and hiccups ran out a while ago (IMO). I do all of my own painting and draw a half way decent crowd when I play at my LGS. I'm sure I'll bring in some new players. The character design is phenomenal. Should be easy to bring some awesome paint schemes to the table. There will be plenty of free marketing when the thousands of backers get their goods.

Wyrd posted a mid week update. Looks like they're still waiting on a shipment from over seas. We may not have to wait till Friday for an update, but it doesn't really tell us anything about an ETA for our purchases. I'm not entirely sure why they couldn't begin fulfilling the KS and BK orders while awaiting this last shipment (perhaps international orders as they tend to spend longer time in shipping), but I'm obviously not the one in charge of logistics for this project. Hopefully we will all get some closure soon.

@renab

Not in agreeance? Based off of the small number of outspoken individuals who claim to be representing the entire community (how presumptuous). 

If you had been spent more than a few moments cherry picking triggering phrases from my statements, you would know that getting you guys to agree wasn't ever my intention. 

To assume some "I want it all" kind of favoritism for paying into a Kickstarter is an absurd exaggeration. 

Wyrd's sheer lack of attention to the satisfaction of their community aside from sending trash minis to their Kickstarter backers hardly excuses the crap we've had to deal with throughout this process. 

They set their own deadlines and failed time and time again. I will fault them for that. As for paying too much for these minis: we'll have to wait and see.

As for miniature market selling low enough to lump them into the parasitic online sites is a poor generalization as they aren't any less expensive than my LGS.

Those gamers who will quite literally buy into any franchise wouldn't be capable of seeing the faults here.

Wyrd made some really poor choices that cost them time and now they're trying to recoup at the expense of their backers. I will fault them for that.

I'll try out something positive to finish so my words don't get cherry picked so hard this time: I've always enjoyed playing the games they produce as well as the art style of the game. The franchise is cool and not nearly as bloated, overpriced or ridiculous as some of the other table top games have become. 

Interesting thing brought to my attention via a Kickstarter post: apparently a certain retail gamestore has pre-orders up at a significant discount to what we are 'investing' in building the game for the sake of some community (possibly of suckers). I get that we are awarded free stuff, quality of manufacturing, etc. However, I have aionus, alt Lazarus and the classic Pandora all built from the newer processes they've been using. They look quality to me. Idk about you guys, but I've felt like I was being played by nearly every purchase I've made from gaming companies (paying 50 bucks for 25 cents worth of various polymer plastics). However, it was justifiable through the enjoyment I have gained from it. This experience as a whole has left such a "pay it forward" kind of negative experience, I'm having some obvious issues in being able to excuse wyrd for the sake of anything else. From delays not pertaining to customer satisfaction and catering to the retail market at the expense of their backers. I don't know about you all, but I'm extremely dissatisfied with how they've handled the whole process. 

1 hour ago, -Loki- said:

Bullshit. This only makes sense if the sales primary channel is Kickstarter and/or the point of the Kickstarter was to get a significantly early release. If Wyrd had said 'This game will not hit retail until X amount of time after backers get their rewards' and then broke that, you'd have some ground to stand on. Wyrd never made that claim, and made it very clear the whole point was to help the game get to retail, which was to be the primary point of sale.

Personally, I'd much rather it get to retail sooner rather than later because I want opponents to play against. You can't build a community around the product if the community can't buy the product.

Sigh... I'll close by reiterating the point that it really doesn't seem as if they made any exclusive priority in providing product for their initial investors over the general population, which I believe strongly to be bad form (This was the entire point of my our conversation). Whether their intentions was X or Y, the fact is that we as investors in the production of this new line were not prioritized by the company while they played with over 400k of our hard earned dollars (from the community you're talking about wanting to play with) and failed to meet several deadlines they themselves set for their product. Creating alternative arguments really rooted in the "I want to play with people" mentality to justify their bad business practice may be in other people's wheelhouse, but not in mine. Cycling arguments rooted in this logic is akin to that of arguing with people about their religious beliefs. People choose to believe all kinds of crazy stuff to dodge the hard realities. You have your ideas about building community and I think it was a crappy move for the company to habitually lie to their founding consumer base (gaming community) due to their ineffective strategies. 

Sadly, this really is what gaming companies do more often than not. 

I'm really at an "agree to disagree" point in our conversation. I really am finished here, really. Now, let me leave this forum.

1 hour ago, retnab said:

Actually a few times in the updates they mentioned some of the sculpts not really being up to snuff and having to be sent back to be made better.  IIRC the last month or two before they announced they were done was just them getting the last 4 models up to par.  It seems like getting the factory to get it to the level of quality we expected from their HIPS models took more work than they expected, which is fair enough.

When I first heard about TOS I wasn't super keen on another larger scale wargame since I came here after my group left in disgust over WM/H's slew of bad decisions around Mk3.  I originally pledged low, but when I participated in the open Kickstarter beta and actually got some games in I ended up loving it, selling the idea to some of my locals, and pledging in deeper.  On the one hand I see how you'd be concerned about there being a small window between the backers getting their models and them going to retail, but on the other hand if you get your models and you bring it to your LGS and people get excited and ask where they can buy it and you say "Oh sorry, backers get it 4/6/whatever months before it goes to store shelves, you have to wait" would kill the hype that's naturally going to come from a new game being played in a story.  Not to mention that it going to retail sooner means more people playing sooner.  We get our own special goodies like the special edition cards, I don't feel a need to get more than the 1-2 month early window we're probably looking at between me having models and the others at my LGS.

I mean, YMMV, but them starting a new wargame at all is kind of a crazy gamble financially.  If they only got that $75k and a few hundred backers, that might have been an indication to not push so hard into it.  But ending at about $400k and a couple thousand backers should mean they're willing to push the resources into the game that it needs to really thrive.

You're absolutely right about a few of their delays we pushed due to quality control. I totally forgot about that. However, that put their deadline for production at that point to May/June if I do recall. This would have given us 2-3 months before gen-con where they would have likely sold their product. I'm not sure if their intent would be to kill the hype surrounded around their new game. As for the reality of the situation, we are well into August and will likely not see our kits until September or even later. At this rate, our shipments will go out at the same time retail shipments go out to their vendors and LGS. I mean, it is what it is. 

1 hour ago, -Loki- said:

Kickstarter projects get delayed. It just happens. Wyrd are using a relatively new (to them) material and production method. Sure, they did a couple of tests with Aoinus and the Tortoise and Hare set, but those were small compared to the amount of kits they're doing for this. Plus they've been revising their material as well (Aoinus and the Tortoise and Hare and Christmas Rasputina all have different levels of held detail and flexibility of the material).

As for 'blindly' supporting a company. They've made products I enjoy year on year. I'm not sure that's being 'blind'. Blindly supporting someone is backing someone with no company history who are bringing their first ever product to market via kickstarter. That's not what happened with The Other Side.

As for "supporting" a company. Support can come in many forms, not just monetarily. Blind support can also come in the form of making excuses for a company rather than holding them accountable. This prevents the company from bettering itself thanks to constructive consumer criticism. Creating an counter claim that is conjecture at best is an insufficient excuse. Getting past enjoyment from an game that is connected by story doesn't mean that TOS is going to be a game you actually enjoy playing. It is my assumption that you haven't gotten a chance to play yet, am I right?

With that said, The overall enjoyment of  the products of a company doesn't excuse the same company for putting their financial backers at such low priority compared to the general consumer market. We were essentially investors in this production and they made the decision to put more efforts into making their production viable for full scale retail than serving their investors first. Considering their project was funded at 75 k, and we (As a community) raised 7 times that amount. Placing the retail release so close to backers receiving their share for actually financing the game from the ground up shows very little priority given to said investors. Their delay was not rooted in the company paying their investors back for making their game possible. There is far more evidence to suggest that they double dipped in terms of their retail supply and the supply for their investors than this passive argument rooted in logical fallacy 

As stated before, you can agree or disagree. Frankly, I knew good and well that some of you guys would chime in to defend the company. However, I'm having a hard time justifying why others would agree with your argument.

I'll let you continue to justify these actions with whatever arguments you decide to fabricate in the future, but I'm going to rest my case here. 

2 hours ago, retnab said:

I get what you're saying, but I'll take a temporary delay over a permanently crap model 10 times out of 10.

I definitely agree. However, they set their own timeline and they didn't appear to have issues with the model's quality in production. At least they never let that be known.

As much as I understand the whole support aspect of building a gaming community, I'm not sure if blindly supporting a gaming company for the sake of "community" is such a good idea as the complacency of your average gamer has been a sure fire catalyst for gaming companies being notoriously bad at many things (customer service, fair pricing, etc). We are building a gaming community here, not a cult. 

As much as I am excited for this game, I cannot help but be extremely dissatisfied with how poorly deadlines have been met through this entire process. Being a financial investor in a game only to receive the merchandise a month ahead of schedule of retail is kind of absurd. Agree or disagree, I really don't care. I just think the ball was dropped on this project and I really hope they are able to pick it up once it's released. 

Think of how much better our games could potentially be if we actually rooted ourselves in skepticism regarding the companies that profit from our obsession with "community"