Liched

8 minutes ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

Crocket + blessed 13ss. 

Fair. I could argue that it's 13ss and not 12 xD

I've faced that combo (I think) and it wasn't too impressive. But my opponent maybe wasn't tag teaming me correctly or Parker might just be dumb as hell

The heal has always been 6" range or target a buried model. As it is now, since you need to spend an 8 to heal, you'd want at least a moderate or severe result and if you need to unbury that's another card from your hand. I would argue that it's a heal+unbury that requires 3 cards from your hand, but for simplicity I'll say 2.

I like most of the crew (except Aionus). I just wish Tara wasn't boring and that one of Karinas top 2 abilites is insignificant

4 minutes ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

God how I love the open beta, where all you can do is find a crew to play that is unnoticed by the community, because all the people theorizing and crying will lead to a nerf anyways because people prefer to force changes to models they find challenging instead of finding ways to deal with them. 

Honestly, play games, try to find counters, play the so called op models yourself and then logical discussions and battlereports will help. There are a lot of things to handle the Duett. Some factions have more, some have less, but it’s Malifaux, without a Little Rock Paper Scissors the game would be boring.... 

just a few things as inspiration about dealing with the Duett:

wp, obey, focusing one coryphee, black blood, vengeance, stampede, blade dance, burning, poison, analyze weakness, model blocking, joss, levi, anti heal Resser things, misery, hazardous terrain. 

If your whole crew is min 3 beaters with 0 utility... yeah then the duet is a bit good. But honestly maybe your not that good of a crew builder then. I want to see the general that only used tanks in a war and then complained that whatever anti tank unit the enemy braught used was op.

Adapt. Sometimes simple tactical concepts win games aswell. Like baiting, juking, missleading the other player. Fake a scheme, if the Duett uses all his gloryfull ap hunting expandable unnecessary fake scheme runners it can have all the rules in the world to be op.

I play with Colette and against Colette and the Duett and both is a pleasure to me because it’s challenging, komplex and rewarding and I cannot bring just a random hey this is all models from my keyword let’s see how they work crew because it’s a strategic game and if I want to win I should try to bring the models for the right job.  

I'm fully aware of how to counter it, but that does not mean I enjoy playing against a def 7 armor 2 model which can't be killed through a thousand cuts. And by the way, Levi is not an especially good counter to it, the best outcast counter being Mad Dog.

Most of the things you are suggesting don't really work and don't come at me with M3e being more about scheeming when it's a more aggresive game with harder to do schemes. At least the crew doesn't just lock certain schemes from being valid picks anymore.

It was a worse problem when you also had Colette being basically untargetable, I'm also not suggesting nerfing it hard to the ground and I don't think tying so much of the crews power into 1(/2) models. But if you don't think that there's any problem with it, then fine. But could you also find me two 6ss models which gives you an equal amount of things?

So, can we just talk about the coryphee duet and how dumb it actually is? Sure, it's the only 12ss (think) model in the game (or two 6ss models at my friend pointed out).

Defensive

• 10 wounds

• Df7

• Armor +2

• Can easily heal itself for 4/5 (if you can even deal that much damage in a round) wounds of damage with the price of 2 bonus actions (which you have) and being a bit weaker to AoE.

• Can heal in an 3" aura around them for 2 without needing to flip for healing and a 6.

• Gets replaced by 2 models for additional tarpitting and scheming when they die.

• Average WP of 5

Mobile

• Can leave engagement as they wish

• Bonus action to move

• Can jump to other models (only needing a 3 to jump to other performers with the potential of handing out distracted).

• Can be presto-changed

• Move 6

• Can charge trough models.

• Can split into 2 models for scheming or support.

Offense

• Stat 7

• Decent engagement range

• Average damage track of 2/4/5

• 3 different triggers, critical strikes, handing out distracted and.

• Execute. And with stat 7 and a probable -flip for opponents makes even makes weak crows in your hand valuable.

• Blade Rush for extra damage, with the possibility of 2 charges a turn.

• Can be split for a +flip to disengagement strikes and an engagement area of around 5".

They also have 4ap or 2ap and a bonus action (which is pretty much only used for nimble).

Is in the Colette crew which means that the opponent basically have two models that most opponent will have a hard time dealing with. But with the recent nerfs to Colette you might actually be able to deal with her (Tbf, the fade away change is harsh, especially to other users). I do think that the power needs some redistrubution within the crew

I think the new ability just makes the Deso Engine better if most people are using unmaking instead. 

I'm also a little confused about the "once per activation". Does it refers to once on every models activation or once on Levis?

The term "win more" refers to if you get ahead, you have an easier time getting further ahead. If you gain board control, the enemy really can't do anything about it since they'll just get thrown around or killed because of bury. You could argue that this extends to most crews in the game, and that's fair. (Sorry for what sounds like passive aggresiveness, but I feel that it can be necessary to explain what I mean with the term as to avoid confusion. Sorry)

And how are you moving fast to your own models in any form of effective manner? Are you paying 10SS to have one model go around and hit your buried models? Or are you suggesting that "Temporal shift" is a good action? Because I can't recall ever seeing it being used once in a battle report and I have used it once or twice just to reposition Tara. 

I have an insane problem with the master being reduced to a scheme runner because 1) It's boring, especially when it's literally just walking with very little thought of actual strategy. 2) It doesn't feel especially master like to just walk around 3) It feels awful to have your master, the centerpiece of your crew, the model that is often times you reason for playing a crew and the one that has a huge responsibility in conveying the fantasy of the crew, be a scheme runner with barely any interesting interactions - and no, using the same bonus action the rest of your crew gets twice a turn is not interesting, walking four times and dropping a marker is not interesting, looking at your hand going "Do I have an eleven?" is not very interesting. 

Out of those three examples the only one that can be fun, is being able to do a mad dash for a vp, but it's just not very engaging if it's what you're expected to do with your master or do because you have one reliable action on your card.

I'd ask you to take a look at the seamus threads about how angry they are at Seamus being a glorified scheme runner - and he at least has an ability on his card to allow him to do these sort of things. 

In the edition advertised to be about thematic crews and their synergy I would appreciate if it mattered wheter or not my crew synergised beyond having the same keywords... Because it's not the same thing

5 hours ago, dzlier said:

I disagree on it being one of her few strengths, but I'd like to know more about why you think that. I also didn't find it boring, but my opponent did say that he was mostly spending his time stopping me from doing things. While denial is very clearly an intended part of the gameplay just as much as scoring one's own points, playing a denial master isn't for everybody.

I guess I should say one of her more interesting abilities. 

Because she's basically a win more master that also doesn't do a whole lot and her card requires so many hoops to jump through to ever be used. 

You can summon once a turn, and the other 4-5 app will be spent on walking or hitting people in melee. The fast redstrubution requires you to active and target models in a very particular order, have both you and the enemy be clumped and her deck flip will be used like once every 100th game. 

You don't have much in terms of a game plan more than just hope that you "win" the beginning and then just hope that you flip tomes.  

I don't have a problem with control, but I have a problem of 1.5 (2) actions and generic bonus action. (There's also that the only unique synergy that Tara brings to her crew is summoning and 1xtra activation). 

I think that removing one of her few strenghts would make the crew even worse to play. It's pretty strong, but also super boring. So something needs fixing, but I don't know if that is the thing that needs to be looked at first. (But yes, I'll agree on it being pretty strong)

The more I think about it, the more I believe I have an issue with how many of the crews work and not as much with the hiring system. But that's a bigger discussion that is constantly touched upon

I think that is a problem we've commonly seen throughout the beta. Or maybe we misintpreted what they meant when they said that they'd focus on thematic cresws.

10 hours ago, OhRlyeh said:

I think maybe you should play some M3E games against several different crews before making a judgement that extreme. I think you will find that you can still play a crew in different ways. They are more versatile than you think, and your hiring options are more impactful than you think and the play styles of crews. 

Being a game designer by profession I can promise you that balancing crews as groups with a lower hiring pools is easier than how M2E was designed. 

I haved played a fair few games of M3e and whenever I saw a crew they picked what I'd expect from that crew, whenever I played a crew I've fought against I found myself picking most of the same units because of their power levels (tbh, this might be an issue with Parker more than anything). Hiring picks will matter, but you just won't hire certain models and not every model hired is gonna make sense. I believe that crews will mostly be stale with a few faction models being switched around for schemes or counter-picking. 

Sure, you won't need to balance every model for every type of hiring situation, that's straight up impossible (I'd still say it's pretty damn close to with the new system). Now however, you still need every crew to be balanced to such a degree so that you won't just cycle out of keyword hires and that all the crews are about the same power level. (Made even harder with their focus on thematic crews, because now you have a whole new level of interaction to balance and make enjoyable for the players).

I guess it's an inherent problem when you have around 400 models to balance - but if they want me to want to hire in keyword models: Make the theme enjoyable and make me excited about hiring the model.

Cool. Do you have any tips for a junior game designer?

1 minute ago, Andrew James Princep said:

But they are all different now? Like, No more will every single neverborn crew include Nekima, Dopelganger, Graves, and Puke worm, irrespective of which master it was. Now If I am facing Zoraida or Pandora or Euripedes, I will face a completely different set of models that play in a completely different way. 

I know what the wording sounds like, but it's about how every Marcus crew or every Tara crew is just gonna look very similiar and with less option. I fully understand the change and their reasoning behind it. I do not agree that it would ease up balancing however

Is there a battle report coming?

5 hours ago, 0tto2000 said:

 

I played him almost exclusivly last edition and was a bit shocked to find my baby massacred. He used to be a lot of fun, because of the amount of options he had. It felt like a brain aneurism to play him in last edition, but I honestly enjoyed keeping track of so many things at once.

 

Me comparing the old and new Tara

The emissary Mad Dog combo is legit gold!

Oay, cool. Thanks

In closed beta there were discussions about if the Scions "Mark of Obliteration" allowed you take interact actions for things like 'Deliver a message' or to drop a scheme/bomb marker. I don't remember there being an official conclusion to it. 

"Mark Of Obliteration: This model may take Actions while buried. It may target Buried models or draw range and LoS for its Actions from friendly Obliteration Minions. After this model takes an Action while Buried, it suffers 1 damage"

If you consider the the thread about the Coryphee duet you would combine the 2 health totals of the models being replaced. 

Sounds like a super cool idea

6 hours ago, cbtb11235813 said:

Yes you "lost" a model. Most people lost at least one or two. Its a new edition, these things happen. But the game is better, and maybe you'll find another use for her. Cross faction hiring and bloat was killing the game, something needed to happen. 

 

No, you're missing it entirely. Sure, one Von Schill crew may look more or less like the other, but a Vonshill crew will not look like a Jack Daw crew. 

At Gencon, between the four arcanist players I saw, there were:
3 different masters
9 Oxfordian Mages
4 Captains
3 Amina Naidus
2 or 3 Medical Automatons
Sprinkle in Slate Ridge Maulers to taste

Now that was with 3 different masters, and every crew looked more or less the same, and every one of them had multiple models in common. That is a problem, and as far as I can tell, it has been fixed with 3e hiring 

The thing I was referring to was that every crew is now gonna look the same. Every Schill crew is gonna look basically the same. You're punished for hiring out of keyword and are not in any way incentivised to do so. This means that if the crew you play has less tools than your opponents crew, you are at a severe disadvantage even from the beginning where you either have to pay more to counterpick them or just accept the fact that they have access to more effective things than you. 

I completely understand why they did it and I'm not gonna claim that M2e was better. I just don't like the fact that Wyrd is pushing you to play a crew in one very specific way and the crews that are more powerful or have better inhouse tools are simply gonna come out on top, since the option is to pay more for a model that doesn't synergise with your crew (less bad for some). 

(Since counter-picking is easier in M3e having a larger hiring pool gives you an advantage that was present in M2e, but one not as signiificant as in M3e)

It's not a very efficient use of ap and you're also putting more models in precarious positions. 

But I will try it next time I play Tara. 

My biggest issue with Wretches is that they are just scheme runner, in an edition that favours aggressiveness. So I sometimes wind it hard justifying spending the recourses on them

9 hours ago, SuperFly TNT said:

Eh. As a cheap scheme runner the flea is fine. In M3E 4ss minions are all pretty bad. 

Yeah. The only exception seems to be Colettes mannequins

15 minutes ago, SuperFly TNT said:

As a summon I like the Void Hunter but I would never pay 7ss to hire one. 

I kind of feel the same about wretches

My biggest issue with Tara as a summoner is that she can only summon 2 models. Both which are kind of lack luster to me 

50 minutes ago, Caspergad said:

You argue as if the plus flip is both relevant for concealment AND hitting your triggers AND making you more accurate, at the same time... what I mean by once, is that if the enemy is in concealment, it's not like you still have the plus and then highly accurate is a very relative term. yes you win duels when you tie as attacker, but that is simply not "highly accurate" to win a tie... please...

 

furthermore, take it out on your friend not me, I just pointed out a valid fault in your argument as you used the plus flip in multiple instances as if you had more than one plus... if you think convicts are too good make a battlereport/post about it, I didn't argue the specific stats...

I can't see where he said he had multiple uses of a plusflip, only that it negated the cover. 

And he is making a post about it. TBH if making a post is not considered a valid form of feedback, then I think there's no reason to actually have them activated. 

26 minutes ago, S4lt said:

Having played a few games with her I think she's one of the stronger masters in outcasts.

 

The bonus is essential to her crew working and you need as much as you can get. It's an easy unbury on a model that has activated or it's a pseudo incite on a model that hasn't. Put it on one of their weaker models and watch as they have to choose between activating a fast scheme runner who could be about to get a nothing beast to the face or a precariously placed beater who really wants to activate now. 

Glimpse is insanely powerful. Possibly too good. 

I'd say that Tara is just maybe over decent considering she has no real strengths (or theme for that matter). Parker  is by far stronger, because of the range, damage, "free" interacts. Not too mention more enjoyable to play since you actually have options that don't require ridiculous luck or set-up.