Maladroit

Will the Hoffman nightmare boxes also be available during the black friday sale? I'd like the complete set but paying for shipping to Australia twice so I can also get the riot breakers is unappealing.

So no riot breakers (Nightmare edition) for sale or am I blind?

Edit. Nevermind I see they're not available till black friday. 

Sadly the link to the pdf or printer version gives me this . . . 

22 minutes ago, Azahul said:

Sure, but if you go the other way you don't need to measure at all. And you certainly don't need to go to the effort of measuring to do something you know deep down you can't actually do

But you can do it, on a flat surface it is relatively easy and fairly practical too - it is even possible with less uncertainty than measuring a 2" push. It might be impractical on more complex table but from atop down system it is certainly possible to do.

Edit to add three bases all in alignment. Please note the stick is not strictly a tangent as it is adjacent to the three bases.

26 minutes ago, Azahul said:

It is precisely because I don't get joy from precise measurements that this irks me. An exact 2" measurement being off by a minute fraction rarely matters in the same way. Tangent lines being available for LOS would have the net effect of making this particular trick impossible, which removes instances from the game where players need to bust out rulers and lasers (because you do want each thing on the table to be as close to the intended position as possible) and then resort to rule of intent regardless. 

If they are all on a flat surface you just need a single straight edge to get them in line though, that's it. In practical terms when one is on a box or fence or whatever it might be laser time, but otherwise no measurement is required. I can see that it bothers you - and I'm not going to really say that it shouldn't, but for me it has never been an in game issue, certainly far less of an issue that the is this model in or out of range for example.

To put it another way. It is possible for two models to be exactly 2" apart, but it is practically impossible for a player to place the models exactly that distance apart with any more certainty than they could align three models to block line of sight. So to me, it is an abstraction I can live with - it isn't a game where I get my joy from precision measurement.

23 minutes ago, Azahul said:

 . . .

 

My point is to illustrate that overwhelmingly when you check a measurement in the game you can be a little bit off and it wouldn't change the outcome of any action. You don't need to be precise on microscopic level for most actions in the game. It's weird that there exists an instance in this game of a tactic where you do.

 

. . . .

I don't know about your games, but this does happen a fair bit in games I play in other situations. We might like to get a model as close as possible and still be outside charge range, we'll just measure it up to be pretty much exact distance and state that it is 6.01" away for example, or maybe we want to be within range but as far away as possible we'd use rule of intent for that as well. I don't see much difference. Our measurement devices are not that good that we would ever be able to measure that precisely anyway.

I'm not quite following the issue (or some of them anyway) here - apart from the difficulty in placement which is fixed under the rule of intent. A tangent line to a curved line do share a co-ordinate (they do intersect) - tangent lines do not exist a fraction of a unit adjacent to the curved base, they actually share a single point. I guess if we line three 30 mm bases up on the x-axis of a cartesian plane and draw a tangent line across the top of the bases it would intersect with the first base at (15,30), the second base at (45,30) and the third base at (75,30). It does not "cross" the second base (it isn't a secant) but it certainly goes through the exact point that the second base occupies. Which I had always through counted for LOS etc.

As far as precision goes, many people have resin or painted bases as well - I would imagine that very few are exactly 30.000 mm diameter and the three bases in question are very unlikely to be exactly equal in diameter - but I'm not going to get out the micrometre to check before the game. It seems easier to rule that if my opponent states that all three bases are in perfect alignment I'm going to accept that they are (and if they are taking the time to do so then just say it - you run the risk of bumping and changing the position of models if you try and do it with a straight edge), but if there is no such statement we should assume that they are not going to be. That seems pretty simple in terms of gameplay.

On 2/25/2022 at 12:19 AM, TimH said:

 . . . . .

 

The Models

This is probably what most people are interested in when it comes to the box so is the logical starting point. All are preassembled and as a general rule of thumb do not need much work to clean up. One of the Enslaved Spirit sculpts has a visible join line that I decided to greenstuff over and Ikiryo had some mold lining on the hem of the skirt. Other than that no clean up needed (but other issues present)

From best to worst I would say the number one model(s) in the box are the guild mages. Good facial detailing, clean sculpts and generally just faithul to their art. Old man guild mage's left hand is kinda bad, molded directly to is robes and kind of hard to see but other than that these guys look great.

Next we have Ikiryo. Again very faithful to the art, she's a big lady and is the obvious centre piece model of the set. Can't wait to have her painted up and on the table. My only real gripe is that the claws feel like they could snap at some point down the line but otherwise I'm very happy with this model.

. . . . . .

Kirai has a lot of the same problems with not looking like a master. Her pose is cooler and her kimono is sculpted much better than Sonnias cloak, but there is very little going on with the sculpt to make it stand out as a cool commander/master other than some cool billowy hair and a mask in one hand. On top of this she has some of the biggest problems in the set. As seen in another thread her facial detail is almost nonexistant. Her eyes seem fine and she justabout has a nose but I can barely make out anything resembling a mouth on my copy. Her neck is much too long and offputting (again, discussed elsewhere and compared to that of the Huckster). Finally her left hand is a relatively flat detailing on a large flat sleeve end, not visible from the front but very disappointing to see when viewing the model from behind.

I'm actually happy with the Ikiryo, Gwishin, Enslaved Spirits and Guild mages. All of those models I can overlook the small problems with. Gunners I could forgive the size discrepancies if it wasnt for the fact that the two commanders of the box seem so underwhelming.

Upfront disclaimer: I am a Malifaux player, not TOS, but have used TOS models for other game systems. I also commented on the facial detail for the preview pics we saw of Kirai last year on AWP and got told not to be negative based on those pics, that she definitely had fine facial detail and to wait till I saw her in person.

You've done a fantastic review so just adding some thoughts:

Just got my set, and would totally agree on the Guild Mages and Ikiryo being the best models - and the assembly is good throughout my box, which I have had issues with in the past. I don't think Ikiryo's claws will be that much of a problem - certainly less fragile than something like Iron Skeeters - but fitting her on a 50mm base will be interesting given that the bottom of her skirt is around 65 mm across. I think the key will be preventing the claws being caught on your case in transport - I can't see her being damaged from normal handling. Gunners, yes scale is a bit of a problem, but nothing out of the ordinary from Wyrd. Again these seem to have been designed for TOS basing and squeezing two of the sculpts onto a 40 mm will require a little creativity. Don't expect them to fit within the recessed area of a base given that the base of the model (sandbags plus feet) is almost exactly 40 mm - again nothing new here, Santiago Ortega, Brass Arachnid et al. have similar issues.

The guild mages have very nice depth on the facial detail which makes the issues with Kirai stand out even further - on my Kirai, there is clearly no mouth even under some pretty good magnification - she genuinely looks covid themed, with everything smoothed out from the eyes down. Then there is the design of the neck. I am considering whether I can get a mask onto her face and remove the one she is carrying which is very in theme with the rest of her crew . . . Sonnia's mask comes off and Kirai gains one would also have been some nice symmetry. I guess from a TOS perspective, the lack of detail may be less of a concern due to the larger scale, but for Malifaux those details (or lack of) do stand out. As a guild player this is less of a problem but if I was playing ressers I'd be glad Kirai has not had a base size change so you can continue to use the old model as the new title and if a TO gave me grief, I'd just play another master, which I understand may be of no comfort for newer players given this is a starter set. Sonnia's pose is a bit stiff - I'm wondering if a hot water bath and some subtle reposing might be the easiest approach?

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Tokens, Bases and Tapes

 . . . . . .

The two tape measures are identical to the OS tape measure from the Kickstarter but are white instead of yellow. Better quality than the ones from the 2E Half BloodsvAsylum starter set but was disappointed they were both the same colour as opposed to being in faction colours.

 

Agreed, they are better than the M2E ones, but having said that, they are still not very good. I'll probably never use one - I guess maybe I'll chuck one in my gaming bag as a backup. I get that they are providing stuff for new gamers - but maybe themed measuring widgets would have been a better choice, at least those would be more useful for new and established gamers. It makes the genericness of them even more baffling - at least if they were faction themed collectors might want them. 

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Cards

 . . . . .

The fate decks were problematic. For some reason the lid flaps on both fate deck boxes are incredibly tight and I found it impossible to open either of them without first making a minor rip in the top of the box. I've never had this problem with other fate decks, not sure what was going on here. The backs of each deck are the faction logo and colour, which i like for the guild deck but dislike for the court one (not a fan of the weird trollface logo). Decent quality card stock for the cards with a  glossy finish that means you will have to to go through the deck at least once to seperate the cards on purchase. 1-10 in all fur suits is what you expect (faction colour, symbol, numbers in corners) with no indication for weak/moderate/severe for if you use them in Malifaux. The face cards are a letdown, more so in court than in guild.

 

I've had the same problem opening other fate decks from the new starter boxes - the flaps from the "lid" get caught behind the smaller box flaps. I found that if you use a blunt knife or similar to work the flaps forward you can get them open (not easily) without damage. Once opened I didn't have much of a problem getting it open again. Quality seems similar to the decks from the other starter sets, decent quality but wont last without sleeving - and once you've sleeved them you don't have to worry about the box again. Probably not as nice as the decks from the M2E starter.

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Conclusions

While it does include everything needed to get you started in Other Side the starter set is ultimately left down by the quality of the sculpts for the commanders. From a cost perspective the box is cheaper than purchasing two allegiance boxes for seperate factions but for anyone looking to get into the game I would still recommend one of the allegiance boxes over the starter set as a first purchase just off of the fact that you get 'more' in most regards when it comes to the plastic you are purchasing (an allegiance box is only one faction but has more models for that faction than the more expensive starter set has for two factions). More scrip of models, more units for your preferred faction and more models within those units. With the exception of the Burning Man Allegiance box every other set contains one commander (of higher quality than Kirai and Sonnia) plus three squads of 9 models, bringing the total to 4 units and 28 models each (burning man being 4 units 25 models) compared to the starter set which has 3 units per faction with 10 models for guild and 14 for Court.

I don't hate the starter set. I like that it comes with the tokens for a 2nd enslaved spirits unit, I like that it has 2 fate decks and 2 tape measures. I like that it shows that wyrd is still putting out models for Other Side and that we are getting new toys to expand the envoy factions for use with our existing companies. Ultimately though for what you are getting in the box the pricepoint either needed to be lower or the models needed to be better quality. As it is this is a product for those who really want everything for their chosen faction, or for the people who will be getting maximum usage out of everything in it (for example people who play guild in faux and a Malifaux allegiance in other Side).

 

Pretty much agree with your conclusions, value seems fine for Malifaux players (even with the surplus models) - works out to be a bit less than two faction specific starter boxes and they only come with 4 models each. Having aid that - that is as long as you can use both halves or split the box with someone. Slightly disappointed with the Master models, but the guild mages and Ikiryo are wonderful and I can live with the Gatling gunners.

2 hours ago, solkan said:

My apologies, I forgot which version of the working text had been approved.  😕

First, let me express my sincere skepticism on the "technically an additional master" point.

 

 

That's fair - I guess I will just read Step F as selecting a "different master" and all is as intended - and treats those two crews in the same way as any other, which is a fairer outcome. Thanks for the responses everyone.

30 minutes ago, TheUnseemlyOne said:

This is covered in the last paragraph in step G. The Master station is cited in the list of being able to hire multiple based on the number after their station. So masters follow the same rules as any other model in this regard without needing to declare the same master twice in two different steps

Maybe you are correct here, I'm not sure I see it that way for the leader step, which I believe is always a single model - afaik you only have a single leader model regardless of how many of that type of master you hire. I'm pretty certain that my interpretation isn't what was intended, but at the moment it's the best interpretation I can manage of RAW. 

If step F read:

"After Leaders are revealed, each player may secretly choose whether or not to hire any masters with a different name to their chosen leader into their Crew." 

I'd be very happy it was nice and clear and I'd be happy that it was fair too.

3 hours ago, solkan said:

Your premise is that the Outcast player is proceeding as follows:

* Declare as Viktoria Chambers

* In spite of the fact that they have not chosen a title yet, declare Viktoria Chambers as a second master, in spite of the fact that doing so violates the hiring model limits.  (Because the rule allowing them to do so is on a model they haven't chosen yet!)

instead of the more practical approach:  The rules which allow a second copy of a master to be hired when the model of that name and title are the leader are an exception to the sequence.

?

Your disadvantage scenario isn't a valid start of the game sequence, as far as I can tell.

 

 

I agree with the practical problem, but I guess my interpretation of what is written is first Vik is the leader and second Vik is a second master so must be chosen and declared during Step F. I have not seen any exception written anywhere, but would be more than happy if it exists. Prior to the FAQ I was choosing the master title when the original master was declared (during step E) because of this exact reason. 

"* In spite of the fact that they have not chosen a title yet, declare Viktoria Chambers as a second master, in spite of the fact that doing so violates the hiring model limits.  (Because the rule allowing them to do so is on a model they haven't chosen yet!)"

As I read it this is incorrect, you do not hire the second master during Step F, you only have to declare that you are choosing to hire a second master during this step. You hire the second master during Step G, which would make their hiring perfectly legal as you now have legally chosen your first master. You only choose and declare additional masters during Step F, you Hire them in Step G.

From the digital rule book - end of Step F.

"When hiring Crews (step G), each player that chose to hire an additional Master must hire those chosen Masters. (including the cost of 1 additional Soulstone to hire.)"

So the FAQ clarified that Master titles are selected at Step G, however this isn't really an option for Viks and Nexus. If I am reading it correctly, OG Viks choose one Vik to be the leader then the second Viktoria is chosen and revealed in step F when additional masters are chosen. Second Vik is a second master after all. This means that the player is effectively choosing and revealing which Vik before their opponent has chosen their master title or crew. Same for Nexus "one of Many", the other 2 Nexus masters are chosen in Step F and hence the title is revealed. So rules question - is this correct? Is there an additional problem that you cannot choose additional Nexus masters until after you have selected a title - which breaks the crew hiring process?

I'm not sure if this is game breaking but it does not quite sit right with me . . . . I mean it was already kind of the case already in terms of crew selection, but now the opponent gets the added bonus of tailoring their master title as well with that extra knowledge.

On 11/27/2021 at 2:57 AM, Adran said:

Not that I know of. I haven't read Into the Bayou, which is probably the most likely place they would have put it, but I don't remember anyone mentioning it. 

Nothing that I can see in there, no . . . 

On 11/27/2021 at 1:12 AM, Adran said:

. . . . . I think Dr Dufresne (Alt McMorning) might have been in a Story with Bishop and Barbaros (Or Emiline Belarose (Miss Sybelle)or Amelia Bathoy (Nicodem) have shown up , I can't remember which). 

I can't remember reading any others, but they may exist.

If it is the story of how Bishop and Barbaros escaped the fighting pits, then I don't think that was Dufresne, the Dr in that story was scarred horribly by a Nephilim and was employed by the fighting pits to treat the fighters - from memory the Nephilim in the story wasn't specifically identified as Barbaros, but had damaged wings with cut tendons (which I think is similar to Barbaros's story). I don't remember where this particular story is - chronicles I think.

Dufresne is definitely in the TTB In defence of Innocence book, where she is the town doctor. There is quite a good description of her on page 59. Not in this one, but the diary of Emiline Bellarose is an extensive feature of some TTB books - I think you will get a very good understanding of her character from reading even one of these - Into the Steam is a good one to try if you can get your hands on it.

Off topic: This thread did not go how I thought it would . . .

When I get mine, what I'd like to do, but my modelling skills are probably not up to it, is to take the mask out of her hands and put it on her face. Doesn't solve the neck . . . but I could live with that.

As Adran said, focus on scoring, but also be aware that the armour two is only part of the problem. Hoff has one of the best heals in the game and does a decent job of condition removal too. If you think about an armour 2 model you've spent resources hitting for a severe 5 damage - probably focus, cheating to win the duel and probably a severe cheat on the damage - Hoffman just heals a construct for 3 on a relented duel and you're back to square one. (It is so good I've had at least three opponents ask to look at his card to confirm). But to do this he needs to be close to his crew and he can't heal himself. So a big part of killing Hoff models is to get them to spread out away from the bubble and then pick them off, anything near Hoffman is incredibly resilient. 

On 9/29/2021 at 3:29 AM, captaingrizz said:

Ok, so I've no idea who is good with what, so far Ive been just buying the stuff I think looks cool. Outside master starter sets and the new forthcoming alternate masters, what are some good units to go with what I have so far?

Original Ramos box, electric creation, Ash & dust, Lazarus, 2 mechanical spiders, Scorpious, Blessed of December, Marcus M3E starter, Misaki 2nd E starter, Mei Feng, 6 metal Gaimen, rail golem, Dawn serpent, yan Lo 3rd ed starter, 1st edition arcanist effigey (book headed book guy), stuffed doll, and a single fire gamin

local store has some clearance bundles for ten thunder that have some Jorugomo and river monks but other than that Im not sure what non masters to pick up, or are more masters the best way forward?

 

There have been a couple of thorough answers so I'll just add a couple of points. You say you have Mei Feng - is that her core box or just the single model (you seem to have a couple of odd models there)? If you only have Mei herself then you could consider using the fire Gamin as a proxy model for her totem for the time being (ask your opponent first). @Regelridderen makes a good point - if your hobby mojo is scratched by painting and modelling, then sure, it is best to stick to a single faction and build up crews by keyword, but sensibly buy whatever excites you as a modeller/painter. And don't forget to look for Versatile models from your keyword, if you are unsure which masters you might end up liking you can generally add some of these and they'll get used by several masters. In Arcanists, the Mechanical rider or Arcane Emissary/Effigy are worth considering (and they look great) and in TT again the Emissary/Effigy box if you can get it cheap - TT has plenty of useful versatile models. These can let you start playing with a full crew without committing to any particular Master (that isn't to say they work equally well with any master).

The last part is that you'll probably want to play using the M3E cards (any M3E box you buy should come with them and some retailers are giving you the cards with the M2E boxes as well) - you can use the app but that isn't great for playing the game. Cards can be printed yourself by downloading the cards from here:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wicc6rs8kg46bt7/AACUSxdWhyaHQYaD1cGf0nzga?dl=0

You can also get them printed by a professional:

https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/5162/Wyrd-Miniatures

Or you can buy cards as in faction decks - the problem for you is that your might need to get a few cards from several decks (which is why I've listed this last). Ramos and the electric creation are in their own specific Dead Man's Hand Deck.    

16 minutes ago, Adran said:

(Also there is another "killed" definition which is caused by execute and similar triggers that is not based off health. Being reduced to 0 health "Kills" you, but it is not the only way to kill a model )

That would be in the section titled Killed for anyone who wants the reference (Page 25 DRB):

"Killed
Models are most often killed as a result of being reduced to 0 Health, but some game effects can instantly kill
models regardless of their Health."

To add another one, a model can also be killed by being buried at the end of the game . . . .

17 minutes ago, Durza said:

Looks like the new Lazarus sculpt from the Cutting-Edge Technology box. 

Thanks, I only checked the app to be honest, doesn't appear like the new art has been added yet. Does look better than the old model though.

I don't think this is a new Arcanist model, but did anyone identify the model chillin at the back at Gencon? It kind of looks like Lazarus . . . but it (admittedly it is hard to tell) looks like it is in the same paler plastic as the botanists in front of it (certainly looks lighter than the hard plastic model just sneaking in to the right of frame). The starter box models are much lighter as well and outcasts (where you would expect lazarus to be) already have theirs. So assuming it isn't Lazarus and is a started model, would either be Guild or Arcanists out of what is left.

Slightly weird one, because it doesn't really matter (you can just choose two different schemes), but I don't think assassinate and vendetta are a good combination of schemes in Henchman Hardcore. They are too similar and there is usually not a mystery about the vendetta target. I get that a 3' x 3' board is a lot of space and they probably wanted to use schemes that forced crews to engage, but I'd like a bit more variety.

On 9/23/2021 at 11:53 PM, admiralvorkraft said:

Lucius was the character that sold me on the game in 2e. 

Was the same for me. First master (and may have been the only master I played through M2E - or about a year). I was going to like your post but then read . . . .

On 9/23/2021 at 11:53 PM, admiralvorkraft said:

His 3e incarnation doesn't ooze the same amount of character, but Nellie absolutely does, the sculpts for Elite and Marshal keywords are awesome.

How dare you mention Lucius in the same sentence as . . . her! But yes great sculpts, particularly the Marshal ones and new Justice looks amazing. I'm much more of an M2E sculpt fan for Lucius and the lawyers than M3E, to me his mask is far less elegant. I'm still crushed that we have not seen the pantomime cow models (undercover agents) yet. 

6 hours ago, Hipper Hopper Table Toper said:

Where can I find the Pilot upgrase? In the app (browser) is no such upgrade.

 

It should be in the app, there is a thread to report issues though if you still can't find it. This is from the browser version.

10 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Understandable. With Nico gone I don't think anyone else in the faction even owns a top hat. 

I was going to say that Mortimer has one, but then checked and he has a new model I completely missed. Lots in  Redchapel (Dead Dandy and copycat killer, Rotten Belle kinda, Dead Doxy etc). Maybe sloth is the only other one then.