Deathinabox

I think his point was that we have less easy access to it, not that it doesn't exist. Ressurs have bone piles and nurses. Thunders have tanuki. Arcanists have their effigy. Bayou have wrastlers, neverborn have bultungin and guild have the steward. All of those are more efficient than anything we have in outcasts and are widely available for any crew to use without losing much efficiency.

Hey is there a pull my finger for M3E? I know that was super helpful in second edition but I haven't been able to find one for third?

5 hours ago, ShinChan said:

This is how a 3pts model looks like:

I think a comparision to a 3pt scheme runner is not the greatest to make. That model is fragile because it should be avoiding contact with the enemy. I'd say a better comparison would be the depleted. They have a similar stat line (-1 def), same health, HtW, HtK, Constriction. and a damaging pulse on death. They have the exact same role (cheap disruption piece) Looking at both of them, I would probably say the abom is better, but not by a lot. Depleted can also be summoned off enemy kills, but are easier to summon. Is 3pts too little for an abom… maybe? But I don't think it's vastly off the mark.

12 hours ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

If my coming post comes off rude, I apologize in advance.

From my very first post in this thread, I have held two points:

1. Levi and Hamelin’s KWs share mechanical similarities in their design.
2. Though mechanically similar, these KWs play differently on the table.

I honestly do not understand how this point has been missed thus far. I do not know if you are trolling me, but I do not know how else to word points 1 and 2 in a more clear way for you. I only do so now for the fourth time because it pertains to your question about my possible concern about spamming.

Yes, I am concerned. A limit 8, 3 stone minion, that can be as much of a nuisance as an Abomination, is inviting a way to be abused, especially if they cannot give up VP for being killed. This is not my chief concern though. My chief concern is that the addition of a spammable nuisance model to the Amalgam KW will be enough to make both Hamelin and Levi’s KWs play too similarly on the table. Implementing your idea without the cost reduction I think will allow them to be summons that are worth the hoops you’ve described while preventing my concern.

Sorry, if I was coming across as trolly. I'll try to explain what I am saying more concisely. The point that I was trying to make was that your point 1, while technically true, is irrelevant. I believe you could replace Levi and Hamelin in that sentence with any two master's names and it would still be true. Therefore, I don't see why it has any bearing on the discussion. I believe point 2 is the relevant one that they play differently and I don't think anything about my suggested changes would alter that. I obviously don't have any data to back that up as they're not 3pt and insignificant and I don't believe that was ever tried in the beta, but I think it's worth looking at.

42 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

The problem I have with your argument is that you are trying to argue that Hamelin and Levi aren’t too similar by bringing up singular mechanics from multiple random masters, all while ignoring the fact that my point was that Hamelin and Levi share quite a few mechanical similarities. 

As I showed earlier, if you want to spend time on it, you can find quite a few mechanical similarities between basically any masters in the game. It's not about how much is similar mechanically, it's about how the models play and feel on the board.

44 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

So both Masters have insignificant totems designed to be sacrificed to keep them alive, but the totems can circumstantially gain bonuses to attack against models based on the attrition given to them; and in the same faction. 

These guys are actually a great example of how models can be mechanically similar, but function and feel very different. You're correct that they are mechanically similar in all the ways you mentioned. However, Waifs are mobile spawn points. They bring Levi to them wherever they are and with plenty of wounds left to spend on killing stuff. They are comparatively quite fragile so it's better to hide them so even though they have a similar attack to the Stolen, they are rarely ever using it. The Waifs really build off of Levi's highly aggressive playstyle by functioning as mobile reset points by putting him in a good position to pop out and continue the murder spree. Stolen on the other hand, exemplify their crew's theme. They are support pieces that help your models. They have a limited range on their save Hamelin aura so they want to stay close to him and the action. You also gain benefits when they die. Hamelin does not gain any real benefits when he is ressed by a Stolen. Then, late game, the Stolen are able to put out a fair amount of damage with their Vomiting Diseases. This mirrors the crew which gets stronger as the game goes on. So while individual mechanics on the models are the same, they play and feel so different those similar mechanics don't really matter.

59 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

The change seems more appealing without the cost reduction.

So it looks like you are concerned about people spamming them at three points. Do you really think that would be a problem?

59 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

Though I must ask, is a change really necessary? It doesn’t strike me as a bad thing that you have to consider whether or not to summon them.

The problem is with how many hoops you already have to jump through to get the summon in the first place. You have to kill an enemy model with a from one of the three models that has the trigger. You have to hit the tome trigger (the crews most coveted suit) and forego the spike damage from necrotic decay and the enemy can't have any cheesy ways of avoiding death (Demise heals or replaces) If you do all that you get a 4ss minion who is slow in base contact with the target. This already seems like a lot of work for what I'm getting out of it. Now if you add on that this model is often a free kill in Reckoning or a marker flip in Turf War and will be giving my opponent a pass token regardless, it's silly to the point where it almost might as well not exist on his card in the first place.

To flip this example into something a little closer to home for you. Hamelin has the ability to cancel triggers by removing a blight token from a model in range. Pretty decent ability. Easy cost to pay with a good pay off for doing so. You're not always going to want to go for it, but it's an interesting tactical decision. Now imagine that the rule was that the enemy model had to have at least 4 blight on it, it had to be in base contact with Hamelin, and you had to remove a blight token. It's still a good ability to have but the cost is pretty high for the pay off. You're typically not gonna try to force it, but you'll likely do it if it comes up. Now imagine, that the ability also said, that after you discard the blight, you flip a card and on a crow or mask, the enemy model clears off all their blight. Well now, not only are you jumping through tons of hoops to get this ability off, but then it also has a decent chance of hurting you as well. This ability changed from cool, to fine, to just feeling bad. This is kinda how I feel about abom summons. I want to like the ability because I see how cool it could be, but most of the time it just feels bad to not be able to realistically use.

Frankly, even making them insignificant and mindless without changing their cost would be an improvement. It wouldn't make them hired that much often but it would at least fix the summon.

1 hour ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

I was suggesting to avoid the suggested change as that would make the Abominations more spammable. I never said they were currently spammable.

As you say, Aboms are not spammable at all. So all way to make them see more table time would technically be making them "more spammable." My suggestions would likely change the rate of summoning from 1 every other game to once a game. It could possibly also change the rate of hiring from 0 to 1 (There are reasons you may hire 1, for lower TN on Weird Devices to being a wound battery for Levi) You may even see 3 every now and then if someone wanted to be cheeky and get some extra focus on a Deso Engine at the cost of pass tokens for their opponent. I highly doubt people will be spending half their stones running a full set of 8. Rats get better the more of them you have, Aboms do not. They have auras that don't stack and have no pack mentality or similar ability. Suffice to say, Aboms are not spammable and nothing about this adjustment will make that so. It may, however, allow one of Levi's icon models to actually be hired occasionally and make his summon not feel like a trap.

8 hours ago, Alerteddonkey42 said:

That all being said, I believe that Leveticus and crew are in a very good spot right now. Leveticus is one of the best Ourcast masters. A change like this to the abominations would be a bit of a buff which may not be desirable given his current power level. If certain other elements are nerfed, I could see this change as a way to give something back while adjusting other models. 

I definitely agree that Levi’s crew would need some extra work other than this tweak. I alluded to it earlier but I think Levi’s crew is mechanically fine (other than aboms) but needs some points adjustments. Ashes and Dust +1, Alyce +1, Deso Engine -1, Aboms -1. This is what I suggest to help fix the Amalgam crew.

7 hours ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

Thematically they may be worlds apart, but mechanically they share the same zip code. Lets not make them roommates.

 

Both have:

Multiple insignificant totems... (Stolen vs Waifs)

...that extend the life of the Master (Agony vs Pariah’s Soul)

And Chaf... (Rats vs Abominations)

...that can be replaced by a more powerful model (Desolation Engine vs Rat Kings)

Leveticus has even dipped his toes into Nihilism (Nix vs Ashes and Dust)

This is an argument that always irks me because you can do it for most things. Here’s how Leveticus and Collette are basically the same master

Both have multiple insignificant totems (Waifs and Doves)

Which they can teleport to (Showstopper and Pariah’s Soul)

They both have models that are made from multiple other models (Desolation Engine and Duet)

Which turn into other models when killed (Abominations and Mannequins)

They both summon chaff models on a tome trigger (Abominations and Doves)

They are both capable of impressive spike damage (Death Touch and Sword Trick)

However, if you asked somebody if Levi and Collette were basically the same master, they would say “of course not.” That’s because, despite the similarities of individual mechanics, those two masters play very differently.

Going back to Levi and Hamelin, Amalgam is a tough, kill-based crew that has heavy attrition elements. Plague, on the other hand, is a slow-burn crew (builds up power over time like Dreamer and Yan Lo) that has some good control elements and swarming.

Levi being able to occasionally summon does not make Amalgam a swarm crew. Rats and abominations do not functionally compare, even if aboms were insignificant and mindless.  Rats are summoned by a variety of ways (Triggers on a number of models, Benny, Voracious Rats, Inevitable Fate) and you’ll always see some hitting the board. Aboms are summoned by a single trigger on three models in the crew and requires you to kill the model without using the built-in necrotic decay.

With Levi, I typically have the option of the summon come up maybe once a game. Sometimes, it’s me looking at dropping in the resources and sometimes it’s just something that happens. But if I’m not doing it in Reckoning or Turf War, that’s half the games as well as not wanting to do it so much with a couple other schemes. Basically, it feels bad to have that once-in-a-game opportunity come up and then, more often than not, decide it’s smarter to just ignore the trigger. People really wanted Levi to be able to summon and technically got it, but if it’s something that happening once every two or three games, does it really feel like he can still summon? At least with McMourning’s super situational summon, if it comes up, it’s something you pretty much always want to do.

  So, I have a few problems with abominations in my Amalgam crew. They don’t seem to be good hires, (They’re cheap, melee-oriented models who are horribly slow and fragile) You lose 2 stones if you hire three to turn into a Desolation Engine as well as giving up some pass tokens. As summons they’re tricky as well. 3 models can summon them (Levi, Ashes and Dust, Deso Engine), all three summon them with a non-baked trigger on a melee attack requiring a kill. Honestly, all this would be fine if it wasn’t for the last fact: they’re significant. This means your opponent is able to kill them to flip turf war markers and score reckoning points. As well as being easy targets for things like dig or detonate charges. They come in slow and unable to interact so the turn they come in they’re unlikely to be contributing anything in way of points. On the flip side, they often provide your opponent with easy ways of getting points, not to mention the pass token that the opponent gains. I’ve actually found myself forgoing or wishing I had foregone the summon, even when all the pieces were effectively given to me. (Score a hit with a tome that I won’t need necrotic decay to ensure the kill). With how difficult this summon is to get off in the first place, I feel like it should be something I should just do if it comes up and often be willing to put resources into making happen. I’m also a resser player and zombify is a pretty common trigger. I never find myself wondering if I should summon the mindless zombie because it’s insignificant and mindless. Aboms feel like they should be the amalgam version of a mindless zombie.

                Basically, my suggestion is this: Make Aboms 3 points, mindless, and insignificant. (Also, Deso Engines should be 9 points. They contribute less than Ashes and Dust, who should be 10) This would make Aboms a slightly more attractive hire and more importantly, would make them useful summons as well. What do you guys think? Am I underrating Aboms? Are they fine as is? Have you had any useful interactions with Abombs (either hired or summoned)?

My thoughts on Yan Lo purchases. I think you need Manos, Chiaki, and komainu. You do not need Toshiro and the Ashigaru as they don't bring a lot to the crew and play somewhat counter to it's strength

Sorry, but it's models that are enemies of Greed. It doesn't count Greed's allies. Friends/enemies is always calculated based on the model taking the action, not the target.

Whisper is also cool on Seamus because CCK can have Seamus claim his kill and draw a card

Fun little thing you can do. Take Archie (The great scheme runner this crew needs) then have Jack how him turn 1 to attach the upgrade. Archie becomes tormented and can be moved about by Jack and what not, but he had numb skull so he can't gain the staggered

Edit: Jack can no longer do this

22 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Not two belles, two models with scarlet temptation within 1”

Oh my bad, I read that wrong

Played with Seamus recently. He's a lot of fun, probably not the most competitive, but he makes for a very enjoyable game. Sybelle doesn't really seem to be worth her cost, I'd rather take the carrion emmissary at the same cost as he provides good support for the crew and can make markers that Seamus can jump to.

The Belle's attack is extra cool as it targets willpower so the target will be on a negative.

15 hours ago, CrimsonWraith said:

I really like Tara in my Leveticus crew, and also Void Hunters, but she brings those for a stone or less each

What does Tara bring to your Levi crew? Is it just summons?

3 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

Big Jake to cheat Vendetta

As far as I'm aware, Big Jake doesn't dodge Vendetta. The new Jake is a different model for all intents and purposes.

The other factions are doing this so I thought it's be cool to do one too. For each keyword, which models are good to take? Which aren't. This is a good discussion to have to help players who are looking to expand their crews or improve their play. I'll start

Amalgam

The Good:

     Rusty Alyce: Alyce is an excellent ranged piece. She doesn't require any keyword synergies and is incredibly self sufficient.

     Ashes and Dust: This model is such an amazing value. Without splitting, he'd probably be worth about 8 stones. Then add in the fact that he splits into two decent models and can even possibly reform into his normal awesome form again and he's a bargain at 9 or 10. Useful if you want a flanker to both run schemes and kill everyone he comes across.

Medium:

     Marlena Webster: A versatile piece, Marlena does a little of everything. The main flaw with Marlena is that Alyce is much better, and only costs 1 more stone. However, Marlena had a couple useful OOK combos. With Jack Daw she can reduce the 1 damage he takes for Undying to 0, making him truly undying. Bandits can force scheme marker drops to trigger extra attacks for Marlena.

     Scavengers: A useful toolbox, the scavengers have a lot of utility they can bring to a variety of crews. They can card cycle, scheme run, and hand out fast, among other things. 7 stones might be a bit much for them, but they can give you access to tech not found in your keyword.

The Bad:

     Leveticus and Waifs: This is a hefty price tag. If you take Levi, you're going to need his Waifs. You're also going to want servant of dark powers. This comes out to a price tag of 22 stones. At this point, the question is really well aren't you just playing Levi as your leader. Pride would likely be a better choice for the same role.

     Abominations: These aren't worth 4 stones, let alone 5. They are good as summons, but not much else. Don't hire these.

     Desolation Engine: Seem to be in a similar boat to the abombs. They're too expensive to hire but are great to have if you pull off the summon. Without Levi in the crew, it's unlikely you'll get enough abombs to summon one of these however.

On 6/8/2019 at 5:21 PM, 4thstringer said:

I like them, though I'm sad they don't get to use the 2"self push.  I am incredibly concerned about the efficiency of adding a 25%tax on them.

I don't really look at the % tax of a model. I add the as to their cost and simply look at the new cost and ask myself if I would pay that for that model in that crew and what that would be replacing.

17 minutes ago, solkan said:

I imagine that everyone gets to find out which of the other existing models are grand fathered into the faction on the 28th, if they haven't spotted icons on any of the other boxes yet.

As only masters and totems are dial faction now, I'd actually look for keywords that don't attach to any other known master. 

8 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Guess we'll just have to play them out and see how they go!

Oh yeah for sure. I'm not overly concerned about it. Best case, I'm wrong and everything's fine. Worst case, I'm right and Henchman Hardcore needs a rework. Either way it's not a big deal and we won't know for sure until it's played some. It just seemed like a weird foot to start on.

32 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

If you can't avoid archie, how do you ensure you drop an explosive token every turn (including the first)? You get 5 explosive tokens and 5 turns to score points with them. If a single model is killed or your opponent snags one off the ground, you're behind again.

Also you can't take the fate upgrade.

I've always found plant explosives to involve heaps of interacting with the opponent (between trying to kill the explosive carriers and snagging them after they drop).

Archie can catch me but undergrads can be placed anywhere with 2 of Val, so he can't stop the drops. Also, if Archie is there alone, he could be killed by the crew pretty quickly ( or frankly just stunned to slow him down, then abandoned) Also, if Archie is chasing me, then that's one or two explosives you're not dropping.

I don't see anything stopping me from talking the fate upgrade?

For example, if I took valedictorian, 2x undergrads, and a carrion effigy with Fate upgrade against that list, I would be fast enough to avoid everyone except Archie and could simply place my markers deep in your lines. Then if I score a single scheme point, you would have to kill Val to win the game.

Honestly, the more I think about, the more I feel plant explosives was the wrong choice. It's a pretty easy strat to score and requires no interaction with the opponent. This is made easier with less models on the board. I think a common tactic will be to go low points on scheme runners with upgrades and to take an expensive Henchman. Then you can simply drop all bombs for four points, and play cagey to eke out a single point for vendetta or assassinate. I feel like a modified, more centralized, certain of corrupted idols to get the fast paced feel of Henchman hardcore.