Joachim

On 21/09/2017 at 12:06 AM, Viruk said:

Should be ready by the end of teh week, only bases, clothes, and some other details to be done 

I love the color on the cyclops. I'm planning on buying them later this year for my titania crew. How did you paint them? Always nice to have some inspiration.

+1 on the emissary and changelings. They're both great models to paint and work well with all masters imo. 

Mctavish is great on the board. But if the model doesn't work for you there are other options. Also less of a use with other masters

10 hours ago, Jordon said:

My issue with toss is that by spending AP doing that your spending even longer to get into the action. Having my 10ss model not see melee until turn 3 or 4 (and in all likelihood, half killed or more) doesn't feel like a good investment. We can get access cheaper pushes without having to sideline our heavy hitters. Besides we have acolytes who can start the game basically where you need them to be anyway.

I agree, but when comparing the ice golem you have to take it into account as to something that he does. I used him in friendly games only, and what I did once is have him throw 2 ice gamin upfield, and then have snowstorm walk forward and do her 8" place on on rasputina so she's in position to cast. That way you have some ice gamin upfield who can put up there aura for the acolytes or take position. Then snowstorm can do the place again in turn 2 and have the ice golem charge. Also, when comparing him to the other beaters, he does benefit from the ice gamins aura giving him a min damage 4 with slow.

However, thats not how i like to play rasputina, and I generally prefer to have the (0) action to reposition rasputina or to get her safe. Df2 definetly hurts him too much as everything is going to hit him, as said you can get around the slowness as snowstorm has that 8" place, which including her base is more 10" of movement. When looking at 10ss models, I'd rather take the emissary and he'll perform better in almost any if not all situations. I also always take snowstorm so there's not always room for another 10 stones, as I also like to take an acolyte. You can even take a december acolyte with imbued energies for 10 stones. He's extremely mobile, and he does less damage but ml7 is nice and he has a decent defensive stat + eat your fill. His mobility allows him to be relatively safe and also allows him to pick his target more easily, making eat your fill more reliant. So yeah, as stated before, I think there are just too many better options out there.

Good point, haven't thought about that! Yeah, I was discussing it with my opponent, the paralyse thing is there so if it comes up it can be huge. 

1 hour ago, Jordon said:

Well #1 worst model for me is hands down Mouse. It's just all around awful on all fronts (except model wise). He's too expensive, insignificant peon, a heal that barely ever works and his lash pulls models to him from which totally shuts him down. Lastly, he barely does anything for Ironsides that she can't get from another model that's better.

Gunsmiths are not great but at least they work. If they were 6ss I wouldn't have any problems with them. Yeah the essence is not great and just can't compete with the masters that it would be half decent with.

Back to my point. I like the golem and what it does - it's just not good at it. It's way too slow and Df2 is just the worst and armor +2 is not enough of a compensation as anything that targets it will hit it - mostly with strait flips.

Heck the Rail Golem is every bit as killy, much more mobile and has armour +2 and TWICE the Df of the Ice Golem and we still barely ever see that model.

I agree, df2 hurts him too much. What makes him unique thoigh is the toss ability to get gamin upfield. 

4 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

I think Incorporeal's biggest strength is in flattening the damage curve of big spread damage tracks, and making random severe/RJ damage flips less devestating.

If your incorporeal models has 4 wounds then 7 still kills you, so.

4 hours ago, WWHSD said:

How much more durable should a 0 point Henchman that buries instead of dies if you take a 2 point upgrade be?

+1

9 minutes ago, Jordon said:

In my opinion it's still ranked as the top 3 worst models in arcanists and even as a summon I'm still hopeful for an errata to help bring this guy back in line.

The first thing that I'm thinking, who are the other sucky two?

So tried the following crew last friday:

Titania

- behold my glory

- aether connection

- fears given form

Mysterious emissary

Thorn

Tooth

Rougarou

Waldgeist

Waldgeist

gorar

Strat: Interference

Schemes: claim jump, ffm, lym, quick murder and undercover entourage

I wanted to try the tooth rougarou combo as I could then stay back and hold my quarters untill the opponent either engages me or I can "lure" something in.

The emissary can stand behind them and buff them and that way also make it difficult for the opponent to kill for quick murder. Summoning changelings is a bonus and would provide extra bodies for interference and also extra semi-pounce. The waldgeists where there to tie stuff up, prevent it from scoring interference, run off for leave your mark, and charging my backline.

I would run titania to disrupt their flank initially, in this case it was an ama no zako who turned out to be going for leave your mark and undercover entourage in my backline. Titania was able to charge a low river monk and terracotta warrior in the opponents backline turn 3, tying up their support.

Finally, I wanted to try the gorar again, since my list is very minion heavy. The center of the board was open except for a small patch of forest. The plan was to run up the gorar and to make the opponent commit to killing it, buying tooth/rougarou some more time to murder stuff. I'm still not convinced of the gorar as I feel that any movement tricks that push him outside of 6" just renders him almost useless. Apart from that he's sitting at the center with 4 wounds and df6. I considered it as at least extra ap the opponent had to spend before getting to the rougarou.

It turned out to be a fast win in turn 3 for me. Though the most important swing was that the opponent forgot that yasunori had plus flips, I was able to invest all my resources in keeping tooth/rougarou alive and cheated high to defend rougarou, he was brought to hard to kill twice and was able to heal after that. I also cheated a red joker for gorar to keep him alive longer. It's a lot of investment, but I feel titania is pretty easy on your hand and she was able to hold up ama no zako turn 1 and 2, burning 2 stones and receiving a total of 1 or 2 damage, so the opponent had thrown bettari and yasunori in my face, which hurt (and should have hurt a bit more with plus flips, but the amount of attacks coming back from rougarou tooth and changelings is brutal, cause it all gets plus flips). 

In the end, the gorar did great work this game as it kept rougarou alive (though he shouldn't have survived that amount of attacks). Though I'm still struggling with the fact that you can get primordial magic and an extra stone for something that will consistently do work for you. I made some mistakes this game, I put rougarou too far forward, maybe trusting a bit too much on the distraction that gorar. I also chose to push titania back at the end of turn 2 so we could both score for interference, but my emissary would get destiny, I completely forgot about equality on yasunori, healing him 2. Also yasunori has armor and 12 wounds, but I mostly rely on tons of min damage 2 attacks, so pinging 1 damage a time kinda hurts.

Next game I'm trying out a different kind of crew and see if I can keep on improving my titania play.

12 hours ago, HydroMog said:

there are a lot of good points made so far, but my best success with aeslin is when i was using the entire titania crew box with a few add-ons to hit my 50 stones. this was mainly due to the fact that i was able to place a ton of scheme markers to make use of malifaux provides/leaves on wind/rot and rend. so because of the amount of markers in play she was a mini-titania for me.

The one time I dropped her with Titania, it was with the 3 autumn knights and taproot, the amount of scheme markers that lie around makes it that your crew can make a lot of you use out of them and its a pretty good squad at holding an area. And at 31ss + titania upgrades you still probably have 16ss to hire stuff, which is ok.

11 minutes ago, Jordon said:

Yeah I pretty much rate the wendigo as the best totem in arcanists and never leave home without it in a Raspy crew. It will almost always be worth the 3ss just based on stats alone.

It's almost a bit sad since I do actually find the essence of power to be most effective with Raspy as well since her ability to stay still and use Ca actions works amazing well for the essence (same goes for silent ones). However it just doesn't compare to the wendigo so it unfortunately doesn't make the cut most of the time.

can't agree more.

2 hours ago, Mrbedlam said:

Wendigo will offten be dropping a second Pillars early in the game.

I do that a lot. Wendigo is so strong, he's a minion and significant with wk6, that's already pretty amazing, but dropping 4 ice pillars can really mess up an opponents crew.

44 minutes ago, esqulax said:

You talk about it being good that it gets plus flip from the emissary's base conflux in a Titania crew, but aren't you going to run the new upgrade when it comes out instead of mysterious? 

I'm definetely going to play the new conflux when it comes out, I haven't tried it but it seems stronger. I do believe that tooth + rougarou will be very strong, offensively they might be a little less consistent, but then again the emissary can give rougarou armor, which combined with hard to kill and healing makes him pretty resilient imo. I'll probably run a slightly different list though.

2 hours ago, Ergonomic Cat said:

I think this is probably one of the exceptionally few situations where the Gorar might actually be worth it.  Because taking down either Tooth or the Rougarou turns this from a doom ball to "oh, you have a good minion."  Being able to laugh maniacally and say "BUT WAIT!" is pretty amusing.  Is it worth more than +1 card draw from Pukesnake?  Maybe, maybe not.

I'm currently thinking the pukesnake is just better than the gorar for one simple reason, rush of magic will always give you a strong effect, you can even hide it in the back and it will be worth the 2 stones for an extra activation and at least a couple of turns of card cycling. The gorar has just too many conditions, it has to be in the middle of the board, a minion has to die while it is in that position, it is very squishy, it can't really do anything else, or at least not consistently. When you're really trying to be competitive why take a risk on the gorar while you can spend one stone less and have a model thats always gonna do work for you, and if it can help you score thats a huge bonus.

I am bringing the gorar out in friendly games though, I love the model, I love playing thematic crew. And who knows, I might get convinced. One game asami lured my tooth out of position, which normally would suck pretty bad, she got her assassinate trigger off, but since I was able to hide gorar behind some crates and the emissary it was sitting there and summoned tooth back, he actually got a 3rd ap that turn. The game after that he did nothing though, my emissary and teddy got focussed, and tooth and rougarou were left alone. Right now I'm seeing him as a backup for if they do get to tooth or rougarou and if they target it directly than that is at least some ap gone. Though I believe it's not too hard to get rid of it pretty efficiently.

2 hours ago, Ergonomic Cat said:

You're really selling me on the Emissary.  + flips to Tooth, Rougarou and Changelings is just fantastic.

I have read some mixed opinions on the emissary, but he's been the mvp in some of my guys, I especially love how flexible he is. The only thing he lacks is consistent damage output, ml6 and min damage isn't great for a 10ss model, though the flex range can be nice and it's a cast, though titania and aeslin provide that as well. You can remove marker, conditions, summon a damn good minion for a 7 of masks, control the board with hazardous terrain, and buff all your minions. 

I'm writing pretty long posts here, but to wrap it up. I'm playing a game with titania tomorrow against my regular opponent. I'm bringing the usual tooth + rougarou + emissary and also the gorar. I'll let you guys know how that turns out.

15 minutes ago, Ergonomic Cat said:

For me, the key differences are that 1. The Rougarou has so much more range.  Kade is a 30mm base with a 1" range, which works out to a bubble about 80mm/3.2" (15mm from center + 1" radius).  Rougarou is 50mm base with a 2" range, which works out to a bubble about 200m/6.2" (25mm from center + 2" radius).  That's a lot of increase.  Rougarou has 50% more health, but 5 vs 7 def *probably* makes that a wash?  However, Rougarou can heal 2 or push for free (assuming a scheme marker, which is pretty likely give The Tooth).  He also has Hard to Kill.  So if he's not taken out, he's likely going to activate, heal for 2, and take another 2 AP to kill at least.  And while Kade has a Lure, which is fantastic for triggering his own ability, Rougarou's 0 is pretty useful (and kind of hilarious).  Kade gets a slow on his attacks, which is huge if you don't get the kill.  But I think the reach of the Rougarou (he can even attack over Tooth's head, at 2"+HT3) can't be discounted in how much easier he makes it to get the combo off.

You made a great point here, for the combo with tooth I find rougarou to simply be superior to kade. The 50mm base and melee range 2" is a pretty decent area.

But I think what makes the difference in a titania crew is his ability to eat a scheme marker when he activates to heal 2 combined with hard to kill. Yes he has df5 in stead of 7 but next to tooth there should be scheme markers around, if not from other sources and you can get that heal off. And if you don't need the heal you can get a 3" punch. Which can get you to safety, or set up a charge. 

Kade has a lure but rougarou has a short range lure pulse, which also has his place. 

And indeed don't underestimate the fact that I combo it with the emissary, and i can't stress enough how huge plus flips on that amount of attacks are. I've ran it once with a teddy. If teddy use his built in push to get the target into the rougarou that's probably a dead model.

About the changeling: I'm not sure but I think i forgot to mention, that what I plan to do is, the changeling gets a sort of pounce once a turn, but he can copy tooth's attack, which has a push in it (not from a trigger!), which then again triggers rougarou's pounce. It's at ml4 but if it hits, that's again 2 attacks. So if tooth lures, thats 1 attack from rougarou and changeling, changeling's pounce attack if it hits is another push, so a second attack from rougarou and then tooths attack from the lure and can spend 2 more ap attacking, if everything hits that is 3 more pounce attacks from rougarou. You can then even attack it with the changeling during your next activation and maybe get some more pounce attacks, but that would just be an added bonus. So assuming tooth doesn't miss, with the plus flips and cheating thats not automatic but at least probable, then you get 8 attacks. If the changeling hits his pounce you get a 9th one. It is minimum damage 2 on all of these attacks, but if even just half of these hits thats 9 wounds and that kills a lot of models in just tooths activation.

There's a lot of hypothetical stuff going on here, but I also believe a lot in threats in malifaux. The sheer threat of that 25ss trio when it does lure something in is simply something you can not ignore. So the opponent has to stay outside of the lure range, or invest some of his offense into breaking it up, etc. And then I'm a big fan of putting a second threat out there, say nekima, or teddy, or maybe a cyclops if you want to spend less, and than you make the opponents make decisions real quick and then he can also make mistakes.

I'm throwing another question in here, if you're investing in this tooth/rougarou combo, is there a place for the gorar? I've read a lot that he's not very good, and I agree that he actually doesn't do anything, he's an insignificant peon, so he can't score anything, and he has to be in the middle of the board and wait till something dies. But then again, the opponent can't really break up the combo untill they take down the gorar, which isn't that hard to do, but he still has to spend (at the very least 1) ap on it.  So maybe in some situations he can come out and be a sort of extra distraction?

going gunline against the neverborn is not always true though. I like playing zoraida, and if I deploy 3 waldgeists from the shadows I can quickly engage stuff while mctavish is shooting back at you. If you kill a waldgeists, bad juju pops up in your face and still engages your shooting. Silurids that can run schemes as well as waldgeists have perfect camouflage. I also play titania and there's quite a lot of hard to wound and armor in her crew, though the def 5 hurt them a bit.

I want you to just take shooting against me.

But I agree, against the average neverborn crew it will be really effective.

Rasputina was my second master and I initially bought snow storm and blessed of december.

Snow storm is quite a ss investment for your crew but you get so much work out of her. I've actually taken her in every game with rasputina so far.

Just her (0) 8" place on frozen heart models is so great. 

Next, I bought december acolytes, they're just too good. It seems like december acolytes, silent ones and to a lesser extent ice dancers are models that can work really well with other arcanist masters, so there is some stuff that you can use with others. I've so far never felt the need to include non FH models, though arcana effigy seems really strong with her.

I've felt that rasputina is fairly strong, and surprisingly flexible through her choice of upgrades in combination with her choice of crew. Also, rasputina can be a nightmare for low defense models, and crews that have a lot of incorporeal models. Rasputina is also the only blasty master I play and blasts can be really strong to bypass defenses as well. For example you can blast your own ice gamin to and make them blow up for another ping of damage, or you can target them to spread paralysis to stuff you don't want to deal with. I'll gladly spend an ap per turn to paralyze the opponents big beater model (which often have low df).

Don't forget that if there are 2 scheme markers close her minimum damage is essentially 4, or even 3 with one marker is pretty good.

That's resource intensive but it can allow for a big hit. Don't forget about taproot if you're running at least two knights. If you need to hold ground, that combined with her (0) that doesn't allow pushes and such, though that makes her 10 stones.

12 hours ago, Ergonomic Cat said:

I'm bringing Rougarou any time I need to move people around or any time I can move 2-3 models as a unit and not sacrifice my scoring ability.  Given that we're Neverborn, that's about 90% of the time.  There are very few pools where "Move people where I want them" is not a path to victory.

I find it *really* hard not to put the 15 point Tooth + Rougarou package in almost every crew.  The amount of devastation those 15 points can dole out is crazy, especially given how tough Tooth is.  

If you haven't done the math, assuming all successful duels:

Tooth uses a 0 challenge to lure an opponent.  Rougarou gets a pounce.  Tooth gets an attack and pushes the opponent .25".  Rougarou gets an attack.

Tooth uses 1 AP to attack, pushes opponent .25".  Rougarou gets an attack.

Tooth uses 1 AP to attack, pushes opponent .25".  Rougarou gets an attack.

Opponent has to flip to avoid slow on activation.  

So 2 AP from Tooth gets you 7 attacks and a slow flip.  And Tooth has 2" melee (right?) armor +1 and hard to kill.

<3.

And it's not a game changer, but if you have an emissary behind that, every one of those attacks is at plus flips, and stat 6 with plus flips is generally gonna hit pretty consistently.

Also the emissary can bring in a changeling which has a sort of pseudo-pounce. Ok, this is not really what you're going for, but the changeling(s) will get you an extra attack here at ml4 with plus flips, it's an added bonus when it comes up. And tbh, in malifaux any way of making yourself usefull without spending ap is awesome.

With the emissary, rougarou and tooth, I'm spending 25ss and i'm getting a lot of offensive threat out of them and a lot of utility out of the emissary. So far I'm really liking that 3 man team. Changelings summons will depend on my hand and if I need them, cause the scheme markers should be around in a titania crew. The hazardous terrain again depends on the map but add in a 1/4/5 damage flip when challenging someone through the hazardous and then triggering 7 attacks is usually a dead model. Though a lot of things have to go right for that to work, it is devestating when it does.

I've also been thinking about aeslin aura where people can't move any of your models. As that is something that counters this combo pretty hard. That is a 34/35ss investment though in this group so I'm not convinced on this yet, as you're having 35ss that has to stay grouped to be effective, it is easy to outmanouver.

10 hours ago, whodares said:

I learned this the hard way with a generic Conflux Emissary behind those guys. All those attacks on + flips really killed me there

Yeah, that was a fun game for me

That is exactly what my question was.

They're both 8ss, when are you bringing a cyclops, when are you bringing a rougarou and are there situations when you fit in both. Obviously each one has their own role.

Hi guys,

I'm trying to focus a bit on titania as I love the new cyclops miniatures, the general aesthetic of the crew and the way they play.

I really like the rougarou in the couple of games i've used them in. Especially one rougarou and tooth can really dish out a lot of attacks for 15ss and be a threat that the opponent has to be aware of.

But now the cyclops is coming, also at 8ss. So I'm wondering how you guys see how they compare. When would you bring a cyclops (or 2), when a rougarou (or 2?) or do they both fit in a crew? The thing with 8ss is that you often can get a really hard hitting model for a couple stones more, or just some cheaper stuff like a waldgeists or even 2 changelings.

Thoughts?

Yeah, I agree that adding the spawn mother box to my swampfiend collection would make me very versatile with zoraida. I just don't really love the models at the moment. I might get it eventually but it's not high on my list at the moment. A doppleganger I might have to try as I can borrow one from a friend.

I usually really like bad juju, mctavish and then 100% swampfiends with zoraida. Everything brings out bad juju, and everything can give mctavish +1 on his sh.

Together you have two really nice threats, of which bad juju just comes back and mctavish should at least be a considerable distance away from your enemies. And usually a waldgeist or 2 can provide enough roadblock for mctavish, at least for a while. There are certainly ways around this setup, but if the opponent needs to be in the middle of the board, for example extraction and show of force, then it can be harder to dodge. I do find that mobile crews and strats that force you to spread out can be harder this way, cause mctavish and juju eat up about half of your ss. I tend to rather drop one of them and get some mobile stuff, like silurids or gators (but in this case popping gups could be nice). 

I'm more comfortable with zoraida but i'm getting in some games with titania. I think she can be really good at killy strat/schemes, not because her crew is extremely killy (though tooth + rougarou can sometimes be very brutal) but she has a lot of good minions that are relatively difficult to put down. She has some stuff that can help set up a big beater, though I'm not really convinced that that's the way to go with her. I'll find out the next couple of weeks.

There is a local tournament coming up (18 november) where i will be playing neverborn, so switching from my kirai crew back to getting everything from zoraida and titania painted.

This month I'll go for the autumn knights, but since I'm making good progress I'll probably add in the rougarou as well.

Here's some WIP as well. Lighting ain't great at the moment so picture quality is not great. For the tooth and thorn I'm thinking of redoing the base as they are such awesome miniatures I don't want to build a base that's too big and takes the attention off of the model. I mostly still have to do some details, the base and the skin, which I'm liking a darker tone in stead of more white as the artwork, dark grey/brown with some purple hints seems to fit.

How does a typical titania list with them look like? 

How does a typical titania list with them look like?