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7 hours ago, 74legion said:

Just a reflection.

The faction does not have a model of mining Soulstone (well, we are stupid for 100500 years did not think to do this). Whether it's People.

This is right on the History of the world and does not break it in any way.

I honestly hope we wont see more models mining stones the ones we already have a problematic enough

Surprised that some people have any faith in nekima after the changes-even saying she is better now. She was quite bad before, her only viable play was packing huge amount of focus for hitting her moderate of 5 but now with max focus 2 what is she doing titania dosent?

Dreamer while beeing worse will still be the top fraction master just widow weaver will be seen more for stitch summoning. 

Zoraida looks promising with everything else getting so many cuts.

Serena is bad now i dont see hiring her for 8ss. Cant understand why she got hit as hard- they shouldve fix either her durability, damage or healing why she lost all of those?

Who is it possible that for 2 turns he couldnt draw A single 12? Wasted his hand or some bad luck? he has arc res and tools4job so cant imagine beeing beaten 12s. Your games against Ivan are strange. It seems Molly needs some nerfs as she is too good;p

3 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

Hey! Hey! You two, go make an Ivan thread. We have to compartmentalize the flow of salt, lest we sink the whole ship. 

The salt must flow!

2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

True, but iniitally I was just talking about the idea that Ivan is an auto-summoner. He is not, and has to work quite hard for it.

He dosent need to summon though as he can just dish out 9+ damage with + and ignoring concealment/engagement.

3 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

But he has more counterplay than Cadmus as far as I can see.

Oh good thats really comforting!

1 minute ago, Plaag said:

which counterplay to ivan u have?

He takes only wp5 or wp7 models. He hides wp5 and tanks Ivan with wp7. Draws some cards with molly and schemes with croolingans. 

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

It does not (although with Dead Rider he actually needs a 14).

However, some of the time it does. As I said, he still gets about two useful summons off against me per game so far.

It just seems far from automatic compared to Kirai for example.

Kirai has no draw engine apart from whisper so turn 3+ summons are far from automatic if you pressure her. Even skipping summoning  I think Ivan does quite a bit more then Kirai. Also its usually a lot easier to win initiative against Kirai as she usually has some seishin and Ivan has archivist:P

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Although I do run Molly, and the card draw really helps. Some turns he just can't beat my hand.

You drawing a lot of cards somehow prevents him drawing a singel 13? Its not like Ivan dosent have card draw - easy access to arcane res, archivist and flush with cash. He also does have some more draw options with surge triggers, prospector or operative.

Yeah other keyword concentrate on doing something fluffy or usuful while mercenary on beeing paper. Not every model has to lack defense, cmon that just encourages so much to take ook and versatile and IS a bug. Viks and most of keyword have that feature dosent mean ALL of them have to

Student of conflict is supposed to be an expert fighter yet in rules she has ml4 and min1. Frankly the fast thing should be a bonus because she never can keep up with the crew.

As for tealor i think welcome to malifaux should work on places and unburying and the card discard should be removed. I bet she would see far more table time but unfortunatly not in mercenary. For me she lacks hard to wound- with htw, htk she would be give mercenary some staying power. As Viks are paper thin that would fix some holes in keyword.

Von Schtook with x2 necropunks is good for symbols

Zoraida is good but far from needing any adjustmemt. With gg1 obey became much worse. She is nice but folds to a lot of stuff (shooting, concealment generation and has problem with resources as her bonus is not always safe play). Far from powerhouse like colette, yan lo, von schtook, Sandeep, Sommer or dashel who are usually safe pick. Dreamer is the best nvb master period. Main reason is that nvb suck at generating resource every nvb master apart from dreamer- poor healing(serena in every list), poor durability(hinamatsu in every list), poor card draw, no soulstone generation, no summoning, no bayou two card, lack of draw for killed models,  no easy access to focus(black blood shaman is hired ook and his not realible ook). Nightmare have damage, durability and generate resource with lucid dream. Because of this he may just brute force against a lot of things(and he does have options for other play). 

As for the tournaments you mention. First example is really bad. Its not like 100pc of masters from other fractions are better then nvb. Other fractions also have bad masters which you need to use in that kind of event. I think that problem start arise when you need to beat dashels, colettes and sommers with other stuff then dreamer and zoraida. And I also think that people dont play 100pc cutthroat on those events- i dont mean they are bad but due to lack of real life games they might want more enjoyable masters then "the best", managing some crews on vassal is also very tiresome and games on vassal tend to be longer.

17 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

Ruthless is an issue for the entire faction, which makes running into TT or the like miserable anyway.  Poltergeist is in a bad spot because if it gets a defensive buff it becomes stupidly good (not that stupid good totems don't exist), but without defensive buffs, the insane supporting buffs never actually get to be used in actual play.  I don't expect Wyrd to make any changes to him though with their current mindset.

Shooting is also an issue for most of the faction, that's just been life as NVB since 1e.

7 for a shockwave isn't that uncommon.  Fears given form isn't really the play you should be making with Pandora since it's just 2 damage and possibly a push.  It could be useful sometimes, but on the times you want to use it you'll almost certainly be saving a 7 for it.  Box open should have a 7 because it's a 14 wp with both damage and condition effect.  Agree on the card draw problem though, but again, that's the faction not the crew.

They have ranged options they can do regardless of being engaged, along with auras to punish, them not having melee really doesn't hurt that much, especially since charge + melee would be shorter than the 10" on self loathing.  I agree there's some wasted AP to get closer when you want to use your shorter range things like Box Opens, but that's not that bad.  Rider does help the crew alot though, usually with Candy.

I mean comparing any crew with Dreamer is just unfair since he's the only thing keeping the faction relevant (which is why most discussions about NVB competitiveness have the qualifier "without Dreamer").  Like I stated before in this thread, Pandora has very few middling matchups.  Either she's very good, or very bad, into whatever your opponent brought.  There are safer picks besides Dreamer (Zoraida and Titania have less matchups they lose hard, but much less they should run away with too), but Pandora has her place, particularly if you can read your opponents pick.  The faction needs work, and Pandora needs work as part of it.

Don't you mean a missed opportunist? XD

Poltergeist just shouldnt have the antiruthless aura so you dont have all your eggs in one basket. Any other keyword model should have the ability- either aversion or sorrow would get a nice buff by having it.

When fear given form is once per activation you almost never want to use it. But having an ability to use it 3/per turn would make it much better. It would work a bit like old incite.

I think you dont consider that shooting often can be bad- concealment and stuff. Would it hurt that much if self-loathing had 1" range? Its not that back breakering by itself but master loses some efficiency here and there and the sum is a bit mediocre result. 

I do see the problem with the fraction as the whole but unfortunatly i suspect wyrd just to nerf dreamer without any compensation elsewhere and just throw the fraction into oblivion. Most models lack any defensive tech "compensated" by their damage. But damage is as good as beaters in other fractions but other fractions get the defensive tech. Thats why you see Serena and hinamatsu in every list, they are durable which the fraction lacks(apart from fea but they have other problems).

Nerfing inhuman reflexes was really weird. Was it because of nekima? Even with the upgrade a would not choose her instead of dreamer. It was actually nice that a pure melee master had some play as those are usually easily outshined by support or summoner masters. Nvb need some card draw somewhere in my opinion a not by putting 2ss upg on minions that are made of paper.

Pandora for me is totally bad design. She wrecks all the condtion master like brewmaster or mcmourning making them never takes against nvb particulary in multi-master games. The keyword should work only with stunned and gain buffs elsewhere. On other hand on her own in singel master games she struggles against a lot things:

- ruthless - turns off most of her defensive tech, most crew has either manipulative or terrying for defence. As you declare master before crew selection its easy to counter Dora by most of fractions. For unkown reason the anti-ruthless aura is on a def4 totem which is priority target anyways due to his wp aura.

- most defences like dora trigger+misery, candy stun aura+her trigger dont work against shooting. Ruthless shooters like fuhatsu are very problematic

- while master has some strong abilities like mood swing, shockwave or box opens they have stupid restrictions. Moodswing or Despair's Influence are cool but there is no card draw in the whole keyword, you need to use Ancient Pacts on minions which is bit meh for card draw.  Fears given form and Box open need a 7 to go off,  again in keyword with no card draw. So you either do nothing or get rid of your hand which would be ok If you could for example spam your shockwave to drain opponents hand but for some unknown reason its restriced to once per turn. Why the shockwave needs a 7 is a mystery for me. Some totems have better shockwave then Pandora with lower card needed -compare Master Ap to Research asssiatant ap?

-I completly do not understand why both Pandora and Candy have no melee. First off both have a lot of hostile auras but opponent can just leave them without any effort. Second they both cant charge - they lose a lot of efficiency across games because of it. Candy at least has on your heels trigger on her bonus, Pandora has nothing, mv5 and no unimpendent - she needs to hire a rider each time because of it and it sucks.

Is she unplayable? I dont think so. is she cometetive? Definetly not. Why bother at all when so many things can go wrong when you can take a safe pick with either dreamer or zoraida.

The whole keyword is a missed opportunity in my opion.

The most important part imo is to learn placement of your models - Shiledbearers x2 and restless spirit are the core for me and they put a lot of restrictions on where your models can be. You need to put out a corpse with restless spirit so the shieldbearer can eat it for the ritua, the same for candle. After your shiledbearer eats candle for the ritual you place the pyre through which you charge with shieldbearers and push reva through. As the ritual has 3" and there usally is some terrain on the way its not the easy. Remember that shieldbearers have "take the hit" ability so when you have 2 its very difficult to kill reva- just dump your hand take the hit with one until his in htk then protect him with second then heal both with reva or grave spirit touch upgrade, when you take the hit place into pyre so you gain shielded and burning which reva can use. When placing from tth you can hide behind ht3 reva so they cant finish off your shieldbearers. You wont have cards in hand usually but reva will hit with ++(burning and focus) so she will do some damage. I advocate carrion emissary and anna lovelace for the crew. The emissary is crucial as he puts out corpse at range increasing your threat range.

He is not too good unfortunatly - def 3 really hurts, no Terrifying must be a misprint:P I still think he is a must for zoraida because of sz4 - perfect node for her.

46 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

On the topic of Misery, it always felt so strong to me. A 2" push is super good, especially in a faction with loads of 2" engage.

The 'once per activation' limitation is pretty meaningless in my view, given how many auras you have. Far more relevant is that the auras don't stack, so there are pretty bad diminishing returns on woe models. The more misery you have, the weaker it gets.

So a model that offers misery isn't really adding much to a crew that already has a few sources of it.

I think misery is plainly bad design on many levels. The ability should work only with stunned (so dora doesnt counter some masters just by exsisting) , should stack( so there is an incline to take keyword models) and should not be restricted to once per turn. That would make the woes work as they should - putting and removing stunned with a crew for benefits - instead of counter your focus or other condition you need and sometimes dish out a ping. Misery working with stunned only would also disable all unwanted synergies like iggy+kaeris without restricting misery itself.

The twins are garbage. After you do the zero with Lelu to trigger BB you are at 6hp so you die in one activation, lilitu is even worst no stuff to do except for lure (which is much worse then it was in 2e)  and bad defensive stats. And no stat 7 dosent help when your action is bad (if you want to lure somebody pay extra for hinamatsu or doppelganger they do SO much more). More over the cost of 7 is really prohibitive for such narrow models when you get good models(youngs) in the same keyword so they are never worth opportunity cost. As most of the crew is combination of matures/shaman/youngs the twins also seem very slow in comparison to the ultra fast crew. They are never competetive choice - and no lelu is not a "tech" against armor to be a tech you either dont need to be close or be able to survive where you are needed.

On 3/14/2020 at 8:49 AM, LexLock said:

So why did they nerf Enraged By Insolence? Has anyone ever had it affect their games to any meaningful degree?

That aura is pretty much the only thing Nekima can do that isn't hitting it very hard on her turn. I mean, it's still based around hitting, but it at least makes your opponent think.

As it is now Enraged By Insolence needs too many things to go right to be effective. You need a minimum of four different models in the right spots to get a pretty mediocre effect. Nekima needs to activate the aura, one of your models needs to be killed (oof) by an enemy model within pushing range of another one of your models. All you get is one attack for all this setup, it isn't worth it and it is too easy to counter.

Nekima really needs something to do that isn't just hitting things with a big stick.

They didnt want Nekima to do anything cool besides swinging sword but blank card looks bad for masters so they gave her "enraged.." as it takes a lot of space to fill her card.

When: 29.03

Where: StrefaMTG Polna 30a 00-635 Warsaw

50ss GG1 3 round event

entry fee: 20zł

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Could you post your lists with some insight why you used what? What your opponent used against you in Nekima list?

When: 26.01, starts at 10

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10 hours ago, Starrius said:

I think bad is subjective. I'm sure you can throw out more expensive models to get the job done  but I've not been unhappy with the twins yet. They certainly.arent the best models.but when push came to shove they got the job done.  And when you have multiple large threats from mature nephilim indinthink these models can sneak in under the radar because they arent as good and can be underestimated

Bad is subjective but twins are just plain bad;) If you want to sneak and scheme you can do it much cheaper then 7ss for 5mv- yet another insult as the twins could at least have mv6 to keep up with the rest of the nephilim. If you want to sneak and actually do some damage youngs will always be better then lelu while having superior mobility. I cant see any reason to ever hire any of the twins even in theme list with only nephilim(and nvb versatile options are quite good).  Twin synergy is yet another problem because now you have to take 14ss of subpar models. Frankly is anyone who says they arent that bad actually hiring them? 7ss is a lot, and drawing a card/turn will never add up to this investment- just take wicked doll with ancient pact - wont die to random shots and can actually achieve something useful with creep along, spreading adversary, accomplice and still 2ss cheaper.

Both models are bad- never hires unless you want nice models on the table in non competetive enviroment. Nobody wanted to fix lilitu in beta because she has ca7 lure and thats soooo broken that now she is totally worthless. 12" lure is just not the same as 18" lure and her defensive stats are so bad that she just dies after her first lure, if you need to misposition enemy look to doppel and hinamatsu. Lelu with pact is ss cost of hinamatsu while cards are nice and all try to guess which model actually does the job done.