Passenty

6 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

I think Marcus would benefit greatly from having his Tactical actions affect enemy models too in some way. Heck, add a line to the mutation upgrades for when they are attached to enemy models. Let Call give enemies something too - not sure what. Primal roar should not let enemy models take the Walk action. Freezing then in place with fear.

Right now the only way Marcus interacts with enemy models is his melee attack and that seems boring...

For me its not boring just not effective. All beast need resources to do something during Their activation otherwise they dont do much- cojo nas mininal 2 so needs to hit puncture so its either a high ram or a highcard and mutation(which will need a 6-7 to attach again), Cerber may also eat cards for leap od attack(he needs the lowest investment and i regard him and blessed of december as the best beasts, the bear is a Little more ressilient  but in my opion needs something more to make him the tough beast either some wds or htk).Marcus after giving out mutation dosent have any good action on his card. He needs either a mutation with support action( i propose an adversary one, that would also be good on jackalope as now its not worth the Time to put any on him). A mutated Marcus can deal 4-5 damage with a charge but then loses the defensive mutation for that and still needs a lot of cards for this and after that deals medicore damage, which would also be fine if he had anything to do during his activation. Changing trigger on the call of the wild or giving an addional one could also be a consideration.

Just wanna say ruthless guys are not only good against Pandora herself but the rest of crew as they also use manipulative and terrifying for defense.

If she always needs butterfly jump to stay alive I think something is wrong with her card isnt it? She could at least have engagement to charge stuff nad use the other half of the 2ss upgrade

Turf War, Wedge Deployment Sonnia 5 -2 Marcus

Breakthrough

Power Ritual

Vendetta

Take Prisoner

Outflank

Crews

Marcus 6ss Strategy 2, Outflank 0, Vendetta paul vs sammuel 0

Jackalope

Myranda

Cerber +arcane training

Cojo +Soulstone cache

Order iniatiate

Sonnia 4ss Stratefy 2, Power Ritual 2, Breakthrough 1

Purifying Flame

Hopkins

x2 Queller

Brutal effigy+upg

Witchling Handler

x3 Sanctioned Spellcaster

Report:

Marcus gives out mutation on first turn and pushes cojo and cerber ahead. Marcus flipps both turf markers and Sonnia one. Hopkins pushes and shots Cerber. Cerber leaps and attacks unactivated queller that was to flip the second turf marker in Sonnia's deployment zone. Purifing flame pushes itself and charges cojo for 1 burning. Cojo kills the totem. Sonnia charges Cerber and puts some burning on him. Sancction spell caster all with fast walk and shoot cojo x2 each. Second turn Cerber tries to kill sonnia, fails but burns all her SS. Sonnia changes cerber into thrall. Spell caster put tons of burning on cojo and kill jackalope with blasts, no cards to discard so his demise dosent trigger. Cojo charges hopkins. Marcus fails all his action as due to counterspell and drain magic his hand is empty. Myranda heals cojo and fails to shapeshift. Turn 3 effigy changes into emissary and it blocks Paul Crocket+Cojo combo due to no out of activation action. Paul shoots hopkins and kills him with moderate on minus so no vendetta socred. Thrall kills Cojo. Emissary kills the initiate and sonnia attacks cojo and eats all the SS of Marcus. Turn 4 there is only marcus, myranda and paul left and Fast spellcasters are able to drop schemes for power ritual and breathrough we call the game.

Thoughts of Marcus player:

The crew wasnt the best which can be built but it just shows how underwhelming some models are. 

Cerber- it is the only good chimera beast, it has both speed and damage and its only flaw of beeing fragile can be fixed a bit by mutations. Cant see Marcus crew which dosent include 2 and if it had rare 3 probably 3.

Marcus - Frankly what is he supposed to do after turn 2? The only thing he does is giving out mutation which he can do turn one, later on he can push a beast(imo not worth master ap) or make it charge which is useless after the brawl starts unless you push out the beast first, so then you change 2 master ap into one ap of the beast. Dosent seem powerful. The charge trigger should have "even when engaged" clause. Moreover i find Marcus very card intensive, putting second mutation needs about 7, moveing a beast costs a 6, pushing a 5, he has tn on everything and so does myranda and he has no card draw in the crew except for a singel surge trigger. I think lowering his tns by 1 would be ok, moderate of 4 damage would enable him to charge in with +damage on charge mutation because now his no fighter.

Cojo - Why does he cost 10 is a mystery for me. He lost a lot beacuse of change to flying and mutation that used to give rush+2. Comparison to Tealor might be unfair because Tealor migh be too good for her costs, but just look at both cards and tell me why Cojo costs more. He has nice trigger but mass counterspell stoped his tricks. It dosent help that he has a lot of perks when charging but once engaged cant get out of brawl by himself. Minimal 2 damage on a 10ss beater feels really underwhelming. He withstanded a lot more then he should  because he had SS usage upg and armor mutation. Making him a henchman could also be possible.

Order iniatates- Iam wondering who is ever hiring those. For 7 ss they are slow, fragile, deal no damage and need 7 for their support action in a card hungry crew. Never hires on any lvl when you can take Blessed of December in their cost or Paul for one ss less. They desperatly need any improvment ot cost reduction

Paul - This one is beast, if you hit someone with a mask a nearby beast makes 2 attacks and its possible for them to make 3 because of onslaugh mutation or pouncing strike. I Would advice that the bonus action from Scent of blood should not be able to declare triggers.

Myranda - 6s to do anything on all actions again, healing I understand but why does shapeshift has any tn at all i dont know? Discarding a a card to change back to myranda is also hurtful. She was ok but she is expensive. 

Mutation- I would really like the new mutation to give out adversary  beast could do it at range, for example make it give a r18"ca5 vs wp which gives adversary, as cant see to ever use this mutation for a set up. The armor one and camo one seemed good. I cant see why I would ever drop a mutation for a plus flip they are too valueable, the evolution ability needs rework as now its worthless. Make it "at the start of activation" and for all duels during that or just change the ability completly 

Edit- the arc upgrades seem really good,the soulstone cache gave me 3ss this game. But magical training is just over the top- last Edition you have seen this 99% of Time in arc just for the card, now it also give 2 good buffs, an autotake in my opion.

Sactioned Spellcaster- dudes for 4ss with constant fast and a very good attack for this class of minion? Those are just bonkers, they souldnt put burning so easily

Sonnia- dont know why her range was changed to 14"m she was good with 12" which is the same as every other shooting master. The summoning action felt powerful, Most of my crew had at least 3 burning on them and this dealt damage too easily. I think it should have the gun icon so you cant do it in melee. The summons having no slow and beeing on full wounds also felt abit unfair. I do understand that this needs set up but set up is too east with the amount of burning this crew gives out.

Sonnia Player thoughts:

Spellcasters were good they should either lose the burning part in their attack or should have blasts only on severe damage. 

Quellers lack melee attack

Sonnia - i thinl her summoning action should be once per turn. My opponnet had to burn all the resouces not to let me get 2 thralls, it didnt require much set up from me.

Myranda seemed very good with her heals. Cojo, Sabertooth and Paul seemed decent, Marcus and Initiate both didnt do much.

I agree that lucid dreams was too powerful. Iam ok with that beeing fix but nightmares could get something to compensate for this. Like chompy could have gained incorporeal back instead of +1 terrrifying. And stitched need their gamble action changed as now i doubt it will be ever used

She has stats of 10ss beater but costs 9, i dont think she needs any more buffs particularly df6

9 hours ago, Kharnage said:

I really like Nekima being a 'boring' beater master, because I like boring beaters. Someone in the master lineup for this game needs to grunt aggressively and hit it very hard, at the expense of not doing other things very well, and she does that. If you wanna add some other stuff to her then great, but please don't take away brutal violent supremacy as her core identity 😧

The problem with boring beater Masters is that all they get is like 1 point more on moderate damage and 1 ml for the sake of all utility. Look at the savage guys- they dont do whole less damage with 3/4/6 all around but get old ways, tricks with pillars, teports. And i would give up this one point of ml any day to have another usuful ability on the card. It doesnt help that compared to nephilim any crew looks tanky. Guess which crew will you see in the tournaments.

Tealor is ruthless

1 hour ago, ADrake said:

It's really interesting reading this point of view. 

Over in the TT forum people were comparing McCabe unfavourably to Marcus. Saying that Marcus gets easy access to his upgrades while McCabe has to jump through hoops and use scrap markers to get his. 

It's seeming people are never satisfied

Yeeah what hoops? Using his totem? Even then mccabe has Rider with me, decent attack and is much harder to kill. Mccabe is good enough to be taken as second master while marcus needs his keyword models. Even when played in theme, marcus would swap all cerbers of the World for a single Sidir.

Even when you finały get it off you still need to hit and get a minus so in the end you deal what 2 damage? If they really want to keep it just make it auto 2 damage you save a lot of space on the card nad time flipping.

If Pandora has terrifying as her only defense cant she get the mourners no ruthless aura istead of the useless defensive trigger?

Just give her df6 again and make her bury after the swing and see what happens

And decrese the sword trick damage a bit

Or maybe finally print a second action on her card besides her sword?

Iam not asking tangleshadows but she could have either a zero which is not situational or decent 1ap support action besides hurl corpse.

Something like pulse of terror giving slow/distractred/stun or a shockwave attack.

The ability to gain suits for 1 hp seems powerful but might be what is needed for the family.

Frontiersman are undercosted for 5ss, 12" stat 6 gun with 2/4/5 - some 7ss beater models dont get such a good attack and he has a lot of good perks, just show me any other so efficient minion for 5ss.

Austinger are too durable for their cost, and they leave 6ss worth of models on demise? thats plain stupid

Is it strange that supposed gun crew gets shoot by Basse? No, because basse crew just deals too much damage, everyone having this 2/4/5 gun.

If you give pistolero 5s where is it possible he looks like any other 5ss minion except he has reckless which i think by  this time is considered one of the best abilities in the game. Mv5 and def5 is fine but leave his att at 4.

I think both of those crew are far from done. Basse needs quiksand reworded(especially when there are large terraon pieces like forest on the board), and his low ss minion need serious tonning down. Perdita crew needs some tonning up, not sure what, i like the suit for damage stuff at least on Perdita herself. 

Yes aeslin needs armor since 2e;p

Or just better df

9 hours ago, esqulax said:

I have had some thoughts about the faction that I didn't post in the closed beta forums since they were just about to shut down at that point. I feel like Neverborn still has some models that need looking at and overall I would love it if the models in the faction got a bit more unique and thematic rules. 

Masters: 

Nekima: 
The only master in the game that I feel could use an entire rework. Nothing about her says master anymore than it says 3ap henchman and even though the whole Nephilim grow mechanic is a lot more interesting than it was in m2, Nekima herself is a boring excuse for a master.
She needs a lot more options other than hitting things with her sword and she needs more flavour mixed into her rules. One Idea I had was that she could start the game a bit weaker than she is now, but power up when a friendly nephilihim dies. This would be to illustrate her rage at losing one of her kin. 
It would be thematic and could also help the nephilim player not get too far behind if his models get picked off before he has a chance to grow them. 

Titania: 
Also a bit boring, though not as bad as Nekima. Still I feel like she also needs more options and flavor packed into her rules. I would love to see her given some sort of scheme marker manipulation again to give her more of a distinct role in the faction. This could probably be made to tie into her underbrush markers somehow. 
I also felt that her upgrade from wave 5 that made her take reduced dmg from minions and enforcers was hugely thematic and would love to see something akin to that be brought back to illustrate how she considers herself far above mere minions.

Marcus: 
Right now it seems like he does two things mainly. Hands out upgrades and makes beasts charge. If this is supposed to be his entire gimmick then I feel like he needs a couple of more upgrades to dispense. Preferably some that do other things than "make this beast kill harder" and "make this beast harder to kill"

  
Henchmen: 

Aeslin: As it is right now I am pretty certain that she needs a bit more defense to be viable. 

Enforcers: 

I don't have much to say about any specific enforcers, but I do think a small problem within the faction is that right now we have A LOT of 9-10ss beater models. Obviously they all have different abilities, but still I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more variance here.  

Minions: 

Razorspine rattler: This is more a complaint about m3 as a whole, but the Razorspine Rattler used to be a swampfiend and got the keyword removed with the reasoning that "it had no role in the crew" 
I feel like this is a very wrong approach to take as I would like all the different crews to have a ton of options when hiring and this is achieved by handing out keywords to models where it makes thematic sense rather than remove them. 
If the model has no role in the crew then give it a role. Don't remove its keyword. 

Autumn Knights: They recently got a defense boost which is very nice. I would love it if their challenge also got buffed and became the main focus of the model. It is a very unique ability in Neverborn and one that I would like to see be more viable. 

Bultungin: These models need direction and maybe also a little bit of a defensive boost. Right now they are scheme runners/scheme hunters, but they have the ability pack mentality which really doesn't match what seems to be the whole purpose of the model. I get that it is supposed to be thematic though. 

Bloodwretch: I feel like these guys could use some sort of buff, they seem really squishy right now. 

Nephilim: I am just gonna lump them all in here because most of them share the same problem. They are very squishy for their cost. I feel like they either need some more defense abilities or they just need a flat out reduction in cost. The Mature right now would at most be worth 9ss when hiring. This is fine if they are supposed to be grown into and not hired at the start of the game, but this also means that you are attempting to grow your squishy young nephilim into them to get what is essentially a 2ss bonus. 

Stitched together: With any kind of healing stitched were crazy good in M2, so I don't mind seeing them changed, but I just have a hard time imagining that an ability as random as gamble your life will ever be viable. 

Geryon: Cool to have them push ice markers around, but I can't help but feel that it is an awful lot of work to line it up and then just have an enemy take 2 damage if they fail a simple duel.

Aversions/Sorrows. Maybe it is just me, but I can't really seem to understand the point of these models. In M2, it was obviously that their use came from stacking misery, but since auras no longer stack I don't really understand their use.  

Anyway tell me your own thoughts. What models do you think need changing within the faction? 

I agree with nekima. No beater master was competetive throughout 2e and because she lacks any kind of utility i dont think she will be good this edition after few months of playing into it no matter how hard she hits.

I hate the growth mechanic! Not because its not thematic but because of it all nephilim pay tax for their models because they one day can turn into mature nephilim. Mature nephilim is also a disaster, they nerfed him too hard. He is far worse then any other 10ss beater in the fraction(just take rider) but also when you finally grow your young into a big mature you gain No boost to survivality(now you get combat finesse but i think its not enough and where the hell is matures nephilim terrify ability?). So your big guy dies as easily as 7ss model(7ss fragile model). I get that nephilim are fast and made of paper but mature is a bit of extreme. 

Titania is powerful, has some tricks and utility. I think she is in good place. Knights with def4 were never takes, it was better to pay 1 more for the werewolves. Now they are good to hold ground but i doubt their defensive stats wont change.

Bultguins are really good for their cost, good scheme runners with utility.

Marcus has too many tns in the crew, him and myranda need a 6 for almost anything they do. Shapeshift needing a 6? Really? That should be automatic. Here i would make a comparison to mccabe. As both masters give out buff but Marcus is not doing anything except for this while Cabe can do some other stuff.

Bloodwretch needs rework nothing exciting here.

Stitched together ability is real powerful when you remove some weak cards with lucid dreams. If they change lucid dream this ability should also be changed.

Aversions are good. Scheme runners that push your models around, i like em a lot.

Sorrows are bad. Take lyssa for less or aversion for more. Maybe they are fast but they dont do anything and they cost 5. They could have a nondamage attack that discard cards to be useful or just the trauma c trigger somewhere(probably built in the zero) or an ability that amplifies missery by 1 or like anything intresting that other models dont have.

Bad juju costs 9;) teddy is a close call but dreamer can push him and give him shielded, with Pandora i would take rider instead. I dont mean to neef them into the ground but I think ride with me push range should be reduced a bit or it should cost them a mask, or just take all general perks like ruthless, unimpended, no obey(and change token use so opponent want use all of them qith singel obey).

In the end KJ just needs to do something with titanias markerer(or have any kind of crew synergy) or just cost 9.  And give him his rush back!

The problem with adding a second master to even a really bad match up is that you pay a lot of tax for what you would accomplish just bu selecting the second master as your first, so dont see it as viable solution

Keep the suits to prevent damage. They have a x2 ap worth of push as a bonus action, mv 7 6ml with minimum 3(so you dont need to burn tokens for offense) plus dozen of addional perks - ruthless, no obey and if you dont target them they gather tokens for lategame zero. Its rare for a beater model to have more then 5df a lot of them has even less. Dont know what the in theme beater would have to do to beat that as they have superior mobility and offfense and are quite survivable- just look at mature nephilim who has similiar moblity and damage but still is far more fragile then a rider. I have no problem with making killjoy better but for now riders are a go to 10ss model

Not saying KJ is ok as I only plated with the previous version but I think riders are default choice because their are too good, 90pc of time they are better then any high end theme option.

I played some kirai games, and i liked the synergies, though i wasnt using seshins. What i found lacking was damage as there is no urami beater(all models have min 2), shikome may deal some damage once they kill something and get the adaptive upg but still it costs a lot of resources. Looking at the crew i got no idea what was he slingshooting at you that you couldnt deal with. I think kirai is ok(dont know about the seishins as i havent used them) but it dosent change that zoraida feels underwhelming

Yes lilith is bad in m3e, but probably because she is dmh that was the intension. Its pity as she was one of my favourite master in m2e. She does nothing, no defense tech and bad defensive stats, not doing trees anymore, she has ok offense but so does Nekima. Tangle shadows is only ok as you need los and it has terrible range so difficult to use effectivly.

A lot of melee 7ss models have 2/3/4 damage spread, so i agree 6 2/4/5 is a bit much for 5ss

I dont like that from 2e when nobody knows what to do with a guild model usually its damaged output is increased. Give Perdita some utility, no matter how much damage her crew does it wont be picked when basse also has high damage but provides other stuff. Where is for example Nino's interact blocking aura? Maybe some ability like 2e rellocate would serve them good, each guy can for a card push few inches toward other friendly member? They need to do something apart from shooting. I also dont like the new tough as nail ability, as whole crew has 12" range shooting so when something gets to them they should melt, I dont know why their resilence got buffed. Normally when playing against gunlines you should rush them but if they can withstand melee what should you do? 

Just now, kaintxu said:

I’m not saying shockwave is bad, but not the necessary much better than the bolt. Remember if enemy keeps models 3.5 apart you won’t be hitting both. Also depends were your pillar lands it is not as easy. Also if you want to kill 1 model you won’t do it with shockwave unless your opponent has cocernor concealment and they can still resist it

3.5 is the same for single blast,  to get more blasts you need 2 severes and usually a focus, the shokwave needs a 5 and it drains 9+ from opponent and if you fail once you need a face card to pass, you can also easily spam much more shockwaves due to onslaught. Slow has always been a strong debuff. I dont see why allow Rasputina to cast up to 6 of those/per activation.

Has anyone ever discarded a mutation for a + flip? This seems useless as mutation are usually better then a singel +/suit. I agree with card problem, a lot of the action in his crew should not have a tn at all, at least in arc you can take +1hand upg