Pete

1 hour ago, 7thSquirrel said:

If I have a piece of paper colored in different shades of blue, I would say the paper is blue.

If I section off a corner of that paper, I would say that section is blue.

even though it is the entire paper that is blue, a section of it is still blue, even if it is no more/less blue then the rest of it.
paper = society, blue = sexism/racism/other "...ism"s, section in the corner = gaming ( a part of the greater whole of society)

Now if we decided that the color blue was bad I would try to erase it anywhere I could on that piece of paper. However, the scope of this forum doesn't apply to the whole of the paper, so we fix it where we can, even if it is just a corner.

Edit: Its not about assigning blame, its about making it better in areas that we can affect.
Edit 2: not to say we shouldn't try to make it better everywhere, but we know we can start here because everyone here has common ground and a way to communicate

The piece of paper is entirely inanimate so it's a really bad comparison.

2 hours ago, Dirial said:

Ah. I think this is the point where we have to disagree: Gaming is part of society. I don't see the benefit of making a distinction there. If there is even one sexist person in gaming, we have a problem with sexism in gaming, regardless of the norm outside of gaming. Assuming that the rate of sexism in gaming is lower then the norm in the society (a horrible concept, by the way), that is in no way reason to pat our collective backs and stop striving for improvement.

Also, I'm not trying to demonize any group, especially not my own. I'm saying that my group has to change its ways. Reluctance to do so, I perceive as clinging to our ingrained sense of privilege. I honestly feel that that won't do for a society (or a small part of it) in the year 2016. It just won't do.

Why is it an horrible concept? It's an observation of reality (or asking for one if you prefer). While gaming is part of society it's not all of it. Key word being part. If you're sick and you've got a fever, there's no point in focusing on the fact that you're filling cold. It's a symptom, your flu is the problem. Same here. We can sooth the symptom of sexism that pop up here and there, but if you want to "fix" the problem you are most definitly looking in the wrong place.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: I don't believe our culture or "subculture" is sexist.

48 minutes ago, Kbonn said:

When you say X is a problem IN GAMING, it implies that there is something above and beyond what you would experience in life otherwise.   Framing the discussion as a call to action, rather than laying blame at a communities feet is likely a better way to go.

This. A million time.

1 hour ago, Dirial said:

Could you please elaborate? What does the statistic whether the gaming culture is more or less unequal/sexist/racist/etc. have to do with the distinction whether I want to save the world or the gaming culture? What does it have to do with realism? What does it have to do with the question if even one such incident is one too much?

Especially since you claim that the gaming culture is the one we talk about and have the power to change.... Why does it matter if its better or worse than the rest of the world? Would the result that it's statistically better mean that we don't need to change it?

I'll be happy to. If we, as gamers, happen to be less sexist, or as sexist, then the average person then we don't really have a problem with sexism in gaming. We have a problem with sexism in society. On the other hand if we do happen to be more sexist thensociety at large then I would agree that we do have a problem with sexsm in gaming.

I just happen to think that demonizing a group that would be better then the rest is a good way to antagonize them as well a push them away from you cause.

Math nailed it. Section 3 is what he's talking about.

And no, I have zero sympathy for you, Tez, that systems like laws protecting minorities or affirmative action laws give a group that isn't you an advantage that they wouldn't otherwise have. A half-century of legally patching our culture with things that support minorities or women* doesn't count for more than the time before or the ongoing racial profiling and general violence that goes on in this country.

*No, affirmative action isn't perfect or even close to it, it's a mess because it's more efficient and fair to make broad generalizations based on numbers than for government organizations to go case-by-case, but it's better than nothing.. Not to bring this full-circle, but I think you were saying something about statistics being an argument you'd believe?

In terms of "white guys need protection"... Are juries not going to believe you when you say someone hurt you? Are people going to use your identity in place of an insult? Are cops going to assume you're violent so shoot you when you move strangely? Are you going to be lynched for what color skin you have or who you like to sleep with? Do you have groups who claim it's their right to hate you and wave a flag proclaiming it as their heritage? Are you going to have to have states pass laws saying that it should be fine to hate you? With the most recent trend, are you going to have hoards of internet fanatics hound you from afar until your company fires you?

 

 

About affirmative action. You are wrong. I'm sorry but you are. As I said before, there are affirmative action in place in the STEM fields. There is also a study that shows that women are favored for a job in STEM's when compared to a man with the same qualifications.

Gringos and Cracker do exist as derogatory terms

Look up #killallmen

no need for laws it's already fine to hate white men.

And as for the last one... Look up Tim hunt, dunglegate, shirtgate, etc.

Alright quite a lot going on and I don't want to derail too much. Also I suck at multi quoting so my apologies in advance

About being envious of women. Yes in some part I am. I've been looking for work for over a year in my field and everytime I apply for a job I see that part asking me if im disabled or a minority. This part is there only to discriminate against me. It's even said plainly in the form. This is unacceptable and I wouldn't stand for it, if it was the other way around. Also those quotas don't mean that there's a imbalance and it corrects it. It means that at some point there was a perceived imbalance and the mesure put in place are still there.

Should it matter if the sexism in the gaming community is more or less prevalent then in the rest of the world? yes. We're discussing the gaming community. We have an impact on our community. If you want to change the world, go for it, but I don't believe the gaming community is by any way the good place to start this "revolution". We can fight sexism in our ranks but, unless we screen new player, someone racist or sexist can always enter our community. This means that even if you could change everyone's mindset, it would only take a couple of new player who are sexist to destroy your perfect score. This is why we do our best but hoping for a community exempt of sexism is an Utopia in our society. Being realistic is important if you wanna achieve anything,

9 minutes ago, Dirial said:

Just to address this one point:

It's not about every white man being powerful. Your privilege is that you do not have additional shit piled onto you. That is not generalisation. The argument is not "All white men oppress other people". The argument is "White men don't even realise how lucky they are not to be oppressed in addition to their socio-economic situation". (I know that some white men realise that indeed, and that this wording is kind of a generalisation. It's still pretty hard to even imagine what it means not to be a white man in this society.)

Being a white male I don't have access to the same financing for studies, I run the risk of being passed for a job because of quota's, a study shows thatwomen are twice aslikely to be hired in STEM then men, should my spouse start beating me up I have virtually no shelter that will accept me nor would people step up to help me if she did it in public. And I could go on.

That looks like a lot of extra shoit piled on to me. the point being, life can be shit for anyone and we're not participating in the oppression Olympics. We need to look at people like individuals.

About the subject at hand. I think it would be beneficial to make sure we're all talking about the same thing exactly.

Are there sexist, racist or homophobic people in gaming? There are in real life so it's safe to assume that some of those end up in the gaming community. Are there more or less of those people in gaming then in society at large and are they more tolerated? That's the question that's worth discussing in my opinion