apes-ma

8 hours ago, Nukemouse said:

Kentaroi could help move levi around to fix that melee problem cant they?

That's a good point - either by ferrying Leveticus into position, or positioning a Waif at the end of the turn.

1 hour ago, Axelst said:

According to the FAQ (question 38) restrictions only apply when hiring crews, and when attaching upgrades during the game you ignore all restrictions that are not mentioned in the action/abillity that is used to attach the upgrade.

So... I CAN attach Suffocating Injustice using Growing Injustice?! Excellent! Back to the plan!

It DOES seem like the best way to do this is to use one of Jack's AP to attach Drowning Injustice to The Guilty on turn one. Or at least, it's the most AP efficient way. I was thinking, then, that something like Jack + Growing Injustice + The Bigger They Are + Drowning Injustice, and then either the other two Injustices, or Oathkeeper (swapping out Guillotine, I think) seems like a good starting point. I think whether or not to take Oathkeeper will depend on the board, the opposing faction and strats/schemes. If the crew wants to spread out, or Jack wants to hunt things down, then I think you take the Oathkeeper. Otherwise I think another injustice is nice just as something to ditch to re-summon the Guilty. In fact, I think this plan is much weaker (and there's a strong chance it's weak already...) without taking all 3 injustices, since the extra one lets you ditch it to summon a new Guilty, and get back the 5SS you essentially paid for suffocating injustice...

2 hours ago, SlackerLM said:

I'm really happy to see this thread active again!

I have a match up against Pandora coming up. Any suggestions? Not really sold on Jack's new upgrades for this match, as I'm thinking a more aggressive approach

Jack: (3 Curses, Bigger They Are and Oathkeeper or Scramble) 

Ashes

2 ABomb

Sue W/ Return Fire

Not sure about the rest of the crew. Was thinking about extra range with Trappers or Gunslinger. Or Vanessa to do some blasting...

You definitely want The Bigger They Are for the extra damage. Jack is pretty fine against Pandora since his willpower is high, and his attack is on a 7 so you're even against Pandy. Ituhjt be worth finding space for Writhing Torment so he can't be paralysed (especially if your opponent likes to play the paralyse Pandora) - possibly Drowning Injustice, since (off the top of my head) I can't think of any minions Pandora might bring that are TOO troublesome. Otherwise, aside from Bishop, she'll be mostly attacking Would, so avoid some of the low Wp tormented models. A&D is a good take - even if he does Pandora will probably have trouble dealing with the core (armour 2 and Wp 8), and he also can't be paralysed. I can't think off the top of my head what has high Wp (Hannah and Librarian spring to mind, and are good even if they don't synergise a lot with Jack) but with Jack and A&D you've got two models attacking Pandora on evens, which is a good start! I'm not sure I'd take Aboms without a Nurse to heal back A&D after they draw you cards, but also a Nurse will melt against Pandora I suspect.

7 minutes ago, DXXXVIII said:

Problem for melee levi is charge 5 and engage of 1

That's definitely true - I suppose I am optimistically thinking about Waif placement and initiative flips. I think I might be thinking optimistically about Wave 5 upgrades in general (Viks and Hamelin aside)...

37 minutes ago, Azrrael said:

Because growing injustice does not specifically say ignoring restrictions I do not think that jack can attach the upgrade. This is due to the fact the emissary of fate restriction is still on it. However much I wish this was true.  

Oh noooo! I think you're right! Well... That was fun while it lasted... I wonder if it's still worth it to get the guilty into play faster. But I really doubt it! And @DXXXVIII, I should have thought of that, but jack's ap are quite useful turn one... Looks like it doesn't matter anyway!

On 02/09/2017 at 1:50 AM, Nukemouse said:

Twist and Turn can copy the bury action on Talos. At 7 WP that can be pretty tough to escape i suppose. Jack doesn't get to do the heal, but that means he doesn't take the damage either. I cant think of anything in outcast to boost his wp but jack could torment the talos first turn with a guilty, then if two enemies are in range of a nurse try and give both of them "downers" for armor 2 and to all flips. Nurse accomplices to jack who obeys talos into burying one of the two targets whilst he copies the bury to get the other one. It would probably require you stone for cards or hold onto some high ones from the first turn and it requires an aggressive opponent but you can activate your talos earlier in the turn and pull this combo off towards the end of turn 2 after some models have charged your crew. In practice it is probably too costly to do this combo but hey copying the bury is still pretty strong, its like getting a second talos!

Whilst I agree that it's probably too costly, this seems like a lot of fun! I can't wait to try it out... Also I love it when Downers become particularly useful!

On 04/09/2017 at 5:23 AM, Azrrael said:

50 SS Outcasts Crew

Hamelin + 5 Pool

 - The Piper (2)

 - Sewer King (1)

 - Oath Keeper (1)

The Stolen (2)

Ashes and Dust (13)

Bishop (10)

 - Oath Keeper (1)

Crooligan (4)

Obedient Wretch (4)

Crooligan (4)

Malifaux Rat (2)

Malifaux Rat (2)

 

 (exported from CrewFaux)

50 SS Outcasts Crew

Hamelin + 6 Pool

 - The Piper (2)

 - Sewer King (1)

 - Oath Keeper (1)

The Stolen (2)

Ashes and Dust (13)

Desolation Engine (13)

 - Oath Keeper (1)

Obedient Wretch (4)

Crooligan (4)

Crooligan (4)

 

 (exported from CrewFaux)

 

50 SS Outcasts Crew
Hamelin + 6 Pool
 - The Piper (2)
 - Sewer King (1)
 - Oath Keeper (1)
The Stolen (2)
Ashes and Dust (13)
 - The Bigger They Are (1)
Bishop (10)
 - Oath Keeper (1)
Obedient Wretch (4)
Crooligan (4)
Crooligan (4)
Malifaux Rat (2)

 (exported from CrewFaux)

games 3-5 of nova open in sequential order. Opponents were outcasts rezzers TT. I will be doing a theory rundown of all my games on the podcast Max Value in the week to come. 

Looking forward to that! In no small part because I love to see Bishop actually get some table time!

I am trying to think of a way to leverage Growing Injustice to attach Suffocating Injustice to Jack at the start of the game by killing a friendly Guilty. Suffocating Injustice is a brutal curse, and I think access to it without spending 10SS on the Emissary is pretty good, but also pretty hard to do. The other thing is that I don't THINK that it's totally stupid to kill your own 5SS minion to attach it, since later that same turn or early turn two Jack will hopefully be killing something, and can ditch a less useful curse to re-summon the Guilty, ideally in a more useful part of the board - essentially just teleporting The Guilty. For example, once Suffocating Injustice is in play there are two curses that increase damage, and perhaps ditching Firing Squad is OK? Or Guillotine Injustice might not look necessary and can go? Then Jack will still have 3 curses, one of which is the nasty Suffocating Injustice.

The problem is Guilty are Df6, 6Wd and Hard to Kill, which makes removing them effectively pretty hard! The best I can see at the moment is to take Marlena Webster (which seems like a good take for beater Jack anyway) and use her first two AP to score two moderates against the Guilty (ignoring Hard to Kill). Alternatively the Emissary could put Monkey's Paw on the Guilty to get rid of it, but then the Emissary would be hired and Suffocating Injustice is likely already in play... Anything with a 5 on it's damage track could kill one with 2AP, or two models could share the burden with a walk and a "hit the guilty" AP each. The problem is the Hard to Kill. The advantage of using Marlena is that a) she will be able to use the 2AP to kill the Guilty and still put up the protection on Jack, and b ) that she won't want to be coming to the front lines anyway, so the lack of walking turn one might not be too bad. I feel like this whole idea is PROBABLY not efficient enough to be anything other than a cute interaction, but I was wondering if there is anything I have missed?! 

4 hours ago, Cedar said:

Obsidian Statue for damage buff to respectable 3/4/5. Kentaori as expensive taxi for Levi. 
 

Don't forget that now Iron Levi can swap Pariah of Iron for new limited upgrade to remove scheme markers. I think that his two new upgrades are more important now than his new hiring options.

Agreed - I think the scheme marker removing one seems like it will be extremely useful as an insurance policy against waif removal and as a scheme denial tool. I am not so sure about the other one yet - I like the idea of working off death touch rather than unmaking and leaning more towards a focus on abomination summoning, but I'm not sure yet if it makes the Waifs too exposed (or if Aether Shackles will be enough to make up for that, either through enemy schemes or ensuring I have some of my own scheme markers nearby for just that reason). I am very keen to try it out, but I feel like I can't really get an idea of it's use until I've actually played with it!

6 hours ago, Gnomezilla said:

Why not skip that step and just hire 6ss worth of armor +2 in the riotbreaker?

Oh yeah, Riotbreaker looks pretty tasty actually! It looks like a nice denial piece.

@KID55 do you have a particular role in mind for kentaroi or are you just keen to try them out?

Obsidian Statue looks like it could be VERY useful. I haven't looked much else around the other factions though. What looks good to you?

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

Actually, summonig IS placing. In fact, the rulebook point summonig and unburying as the most common ways of placing. 

So he will get a free shot against a summoned model? That's pretty cool actually!

Well, Killjoy had black blood... But I'd say that even as a potential scheme runner she's outclassed by Midnight Stalker (although a stone more expensive). I feel like the healing is about the main draw, but it's suit dependent and probably not worth the hire just for that. I think that the tormented is there to reflect the week Outcasts won her scenario, rather than to open up some interesting play with Jack.

2 hours ago, Cedar said:

He requires 4+ Masks to do both of his (0). Attaching upgrades requires enemy scheme markers or soulstones. His push needs 8+ to work. He generates soulstones, but only from enemy scheme markers. Until now, he had to be close to them to get "free" upgrades, but Emissary fixes few problems for him.

@PositronMike Exactly this! Parker CAN generate a lot of resources, sure. The problem is that all of the bits and pieces that contribute to that are too fiddly. He generates a siulstone but IF you're in position to use an enemy marker, which is likely turn two or three. He CAN push your models around but needing an 8 each time puts too much pressure on your hand to focus on. He CAN obey (ish) but at very short range, and if it's not a bandit you have to lose a stone or drop the upgrade. He CAN cause trouble with hands in the air, but it's just until end of turn so he has to go early, and then you end up eating soulstones to keep him alive, after spending a bunch of effort to generate the soulstones. He CAN do all the things you've said, but the circumstances need to be SO so specific that it's only worthwhile if you have fun playing Parker (which I do! Don't get me wrong, he's just definitely not close to being a competitive master).

The emissary helps to alleviate the problem of being near enemy scheme markers early, but, in true Parker style, you have to jump through a bunch of hoops to make it work, and also take the Emissary tax (I don't think the emissary is THAT good with Parker. I wish the conflux also gave the mask to his attack, since then he'd fill the role of a big spendy bandit that supports Parker and is an outlet for the 'obeys').

I've played Parker a lot. Playing Parker feels like trying to write an essay using a broken keyboard. Some of the keys are mixed up, and you have to use alt codes for some of the punctuation. You CAN definitely write the essay, but it takes ages, there's loads of hoops to jump through, it's super frustrating and sometimes you just can't write the words you want.

Essentially, Parker has a lot going on, a lot of moving parts, and needs a lot of resources to make those parts move together. After thinking about how you want his activation to go, executing it and it all going off even then it feels like not a lot happened... He IS fun to play, but almost everything he does is expensive, ineffectual or inefficient.

I can't specifically comment on Hamelin, but I feel like the Wicked Doll summoning is basically trinket text for Marlena. There isn't really any synergy with poison in outcasts, and since she needs the suit AND a scrap marker I don't think it will come up a lot at all. I'm sure it will be crucial in the odd game, but I won't be buying any wicked dolls for her to summon...

15 minutes ago, Gluk said:

Really? Where I can read about it? Fast searching tells me that he is neverborn and has no mark at the card that he can counts as killjoy....

It was in one of the more recent errata - just added Carver as a legal killjoy proxy. Presumably so that the model actually as SOME functionality in the game.

3 hours ago, Virtus said:

No, Hamelin is not about to be busted. If people would read the Gaining Grounds 2018 rules, they would see that Nihilism will no longer work on Strategy conditions and that summoned models don't count towards the Strategy. If anything, Hamelin took a big hit and may see less play during GG18.

It looked like the strats don't use conditions now anyway?

Doesn't Blood need the Soaring Dragon upgrade?

14 minutes ago, Memnaelar said:

Yes, the upgrade lets him divide his charge attacks among anyone in range once he completes the initial movement of the charge.  So you could theoretically charge a model, gain LOS on another model within VS's melee and attack both.  Or, if there's a third model in range, charge model 1 but throw your knives/punches on models 2 and 3 respectively.

(the verbatim post above missed the line of the upgrade that does this)

Oh, and yeah, the exact wording allows him to take a Cursed Upgrade - no specification that it has to be a Jack Daw Cursed Upgrade.

Both of these things are incredibly rad. I can't wait to try out the improved recipe Von Schill! And the Jack upgrades are really interesting, especially Growing Injustice - my feeling is that it's utility hangs on how often you can get back the curses that you turn into Guilty. Parker upgrades also seem very exciting, and although I am not well versed with the Viks the burying upgrade might be super cool - ping blood in, kill some stuff, then bury to saftey?! That sounds pretty great...

2 minutes ago, Memnaelar said:

3) Von Schill amuses the heck out of me with his new clockwork arm.  He can now charge into a pair of models, punch both of them out of melee with him, and then shoot them both with plus flips.  And then burn Oathkeeper if he wants to make a second charge and do it all over again with another pair of models.  And then give himself back Oathkeeper afterwards if anyone's still standing.  Just the picture of that motivates me to play Von Schill, who's usually lowest in my interest list.

But yeah, Tara sure does look neat.

How can he punch both of them on a charge? Is that part of the upgrade? Also, I am not sure if I am reading it right, but with growing injustice can jack gain access to Suffocating Injustice without hiring the Emissary?

56 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

Ah ok but, which upgrade would you remore? Writing torment? Twist and Turn? These two i think are fundamental..

I often play without either of those upgrades (3 curses, the bigger they are and Oathkeeper) - but writhing torment is a lot better than twist and turn. The pushes for tormented crew members and immunity to paralysis are both great, and twist and turn, whilst good, is extremely card-hungry I find...

Edit: or you can take the bigger they are and drop drowning I justice (I think... The one that effects minions and peons only).

19 hours ago, Viks_Masamune said:

You could be right.  I took it to mean that you could only be damaged once on the given piece of terrain that you traveled thru.  I was under the assumption that you took damage since they are separate HT.

I've always understood it to mean that you cannot do:

Example-Model is paralyzed, and is lured down a long strand of barbed wire.  Model makes one damage flip since he/she is continuously traveling thru said HT.

But that you could do:

Example-Model walks thru barbed wire, takes a damage flip.  Model then walks thru fire, takes another damage flips since its a separate HT feature.

It's been a minute since I've played so I very well could be mistaken. 

Oh I see what you mean - each of the 50mm markers is a seperately and independent piece of terrain. I hadn't thought of that...

8 hours ago, Viks_Masamune said:

Parker activates and drops Hail of Bullets (back to back) behind enemy model.  Once Mad Dog activates he can then rapid fire and use the built in trigger to push the enemy model backwards into HoB.  I think Parker has an upgrade that will allow him to "prompt" a model to make a 1AP action, so this might be able to be done on just Parkers activation.

It's a simple combo but can work if you pull it off.  Mad Dog has a pretty decent damage spread, so if you rapid fire and hit them twice, then thats a minimum 6 damage, plus being pushed thru HoB twice for minimum 4 more.

 

I might be wrong - but I think a model can only take damage from a given hazardous terrain piece once per turn, after which they are immune to it. So a model would only take a damage flip the first time it is pushed through the hail of bullets marker.

33 minutes ago, Davos said:

Can Hannah give out paralyze through take your meds? Her "Make a New Entry" Cannot declare triggers, so its my understanding she could not be able to give out paralyze (or any of the other conditions) from "Take Your Meds", because they all relay on triggers.

Hahaha you're totally right, she can't do that at all! That means I definitely cheated by mistake on a game or two a few months ago! I'd still take her with Jack though, just for general utility and another Lure.