orkdork

For theme and fun, I LOVE the list. My first malifaux crew was Zoraida box + Waldgeists, and it remains my favorite from a non-competitive viewpoint.

For being competitive, your list has some issues, mostly around nothing terribly good to do with the voodoo doll and too little fight. If you just add trees and gators, you'll be a long, long way toward a stronger list.

Personally, I'd drop the Spawn Mother once you have the other models. She's neat, but the model just doesn't live up to the other stuff in either looks or efficacy.

Chompy dreamer is great. I have been playing both, and I think Chompy dreamer is considerably more fun.

You're still flooding the table with dudes, they're just little dudes (daydreams and alps). But then you get to bring out the big guy, and with melee expert, he's 50% more chompy

I have been running the following list and finding it actually a bit stronger than I want. I intended it to be a "casual" list, because the internets typically tell you Chompy dreamer isn't top tier (might not be), and because I didn't spam stitched/illuminated which the internets also tell you are strong (they are), but I found after a couple games that this list is really darn effective!

Dreamer, Restless Dreams, Tantrum, Aether Connection optional

Teddy, On Dreaming Wings or Retribution's Eye

Coppy

Lilitu

Doppel

Stitched

Madness

The daydreams' -1 WP aura becomes quite huge. You have so much terrifying/manipulative that it is really easy for opponents to find themselves struggling to hit back.

I find Lilitu is especially good in Chompy dreamer because she can pull dreamer out of sticky spots (she's in most every one of my NB crews as it is, since I freakin' love Lure and 4" engagement).

Teddy is also just a monster in this crew. If he is the only major threat, he gets dropped fast. But with Chompy around, Teddy can avoid getting focused (and he loves soaking just a few damage so that he can heal it). I play safe with him turn 1, give him fast before he activates on turn 2, and hold him until late in turn 2. Often, your opponent will have to respond to Chompy, leaving Teddy free to get led by daydreams up to where he can do something nasty like walk + flurry.

Alternatively, if you can land the Lures (Lilitu + doppel), you use Teddy to go "retrieve" the lured target, using his pushes to move him back toward your crew where he can be safe. Opponents will obviously see this, however, so if they have a way to avoid it, they will. If they don't, they're in trouble (a crew without Lure answers won't tend to get very far).

With Chompy, don't hesistate to use a soulstone to keep him up if he hasn't activated yet. Spending 1-2 SS for prevention to ensure he gets to do his thing is definitely worthwhile.

Surrounded by Nightmares can become huge in this crew as well. Really quite easy to land a 5dmg shot with it against something at -2 Wp that has to discard to cheat! It's not your go-to move, but it will present itself more often than you might think because you play your daydreams so aggressively: they need to be upfield to protect dreamer when he comes back and since you summon so many, you can afford to lose them.

Finally, don't sleep on Alps. Daydreams are almost always better (they are amazing), but once you have the WP-lockdown starting (say 2 daydreams and a madness), an Alp can really put the clamps on.

Kirby nailed it, I think.

On 6/24/2016 at 8:10 AM, teegee said:

Reading the Adepticon report the rat player beat a nico and a Hamelin(s). So I don't think those are viable stop gap solutions. 

I think a podcast (before we begin?) goes over the games with 3 (4?) of his opponents. 

FWIW, that Nicodem player is a consistently excellent player. I haven't had the pleasure of playing against him yet, but from many accounts from likewise excellent Malifaux players on the US/Canadian west coasts, he's both super nice and super good! Even if he's never faced Ratjoy, I'd wager that he knew exactly how it works.

For tournaments, I can't see it making the cut. Too unreliable.

For other play, absolutely!

17 hours ago, chryspainthemum said:

I think you're missing that the Ratjoy bomb has a range of 'the board' essentially, meaning he WILL bomb your Nekima or whatever other model he chooses. 

First, let me say that I think the rat engine is broken. Thought so from the first time I read it. It's obviously bonkers to get that many activations for 8 SS. Under-costed by a massive margin. I think it should have been Cuddled yesterday

My questions is whether my current "OP" list has game against RatJoy.

To your point, I do understand the RatJoy range is huge (5 wk 5 walks), but the rat isn't unimpeded, neither is KJ, and the board will have terrain. I'm not saying I can stop it for sure, but I definitely think it is in the realm of possibility  Board dependent, for sure (we use enough terrain that flight is a very strong ability, thus my preference for Nekima over Teddy).

Also, KJ doesn't reliably ace Nekima in 4 attacks when you have soulstones and draw 10 discard 4. Perfect play on the Nekima player's part will keep her alive most times. That said, most players don't cheat/stone perfectly, even really good players. It's hard to get right!

Pardon the egregious threadnomancy.

Has anyone seen a top-tier voices Pandora player vs. Ratjoy? Typically, my Pandora list doesn't care overmuch about activation control due to voices/incite, and the crew on the whole eats Killjoy for breakfast. I would expect the Levi list to be less of an issue compared to the Viks list.

The Pandora list is very much an all-comers list as well.

Not that this is any sort of solution, mind you. I just really wonder if I could take this list down myself, but I don't have an experienced Ratjoy player to try against.

The Zoraida crewbox + trees is only slightly sub-optimal, so if you like it, buy it! It was my first crew, and I still love it

If you ever want it to be a "tournament capable" list, just swap Lilith and Primordial Magic for Zoraida and you're good to go! Not all-comers, but it doesn't have to be.

The only reason I call my above list "competitive" is that it actually does the "blow them up at ranged" game-plan better than any other Neverborn list I've tried thus far, so it has a "place" in my lineup. It's not that Zoraida with melee stuff can't win a tournament game, it's just that every such list would do somewhat better with another master (in my experience).

I haven't faced this yet, but it definitely sounds like something that will kick your butt the first N times you play against it, and maybe more after that as well.

For us NBorn, though, I would expect my Pandora crew beats this list fairly handily once I have a game or two against it. Incite/Voices mess with levi and the beaters, while A&D can be lured to a horrible fate at the hands of Nekima and her Doppelganger. His beaters aren't henchmen, so they can't burn stones on those all-important early duels.

That said, being forced to play a specific list vs. Outcasts is lame as hell  Then again, I think top-tier voices Pandora lists cause the same problems where some masters simply have no hope.

Teddy vs. Nekima is really not much of a contest in my experience, but then meta matters a lot.

Since you have 2 rush of magic and wings of darkness and stoned for cards (do this), you have an amazing hand in most all cases. This makes having DF5 very good.

But most of all, you have flight, min damage 4 and the ability to stone for cards. Plus, Flurry != melee expert, especially when your low card is likely an 8 or 9.

If you want a crew with an amazing skill ceiling that can take all comers, play Greg's list from the podcast.

If you want a very effective, newbie friendly list, take this:

Lilith, Beckon, Wings of Darkness, 7ss

Primordial Magic

Bad Juju, Eternal Fiend, Hexed Among You

3 Waldgeists

1 Silurid

1 Doppelganger

This list is very good at winning schemes. Lilith puts Juju where he needs to be while also locking down what she can with wicked vines (and projecting a charge threat zone). Juju occupies your opponent while your crew does schemes. Really easy to win with. Activation order is pretty obvious when just about every model has a buff that goes away after activation: activate whatever is least threatened. But it doesn't have the all-boards/all-opponents ability of Greg's list.

I actually take this list in my tournament set for when I need the mental break from my more complex crews.

My main issue with the rider is just that doppel can't get his trigger.

I'll give him a try, though!

As far as illuminated, I don't have them yet, but I could see them rocking socks as well!

On 6/7/2016 at 1:16 AM, feagaur said:

I'd say if you're running a Doll dependant list then Tarot Reading is worth it for 2 points. Also the 2 AP action to move scheme markers can be really devastating, especially if someone's trying to do setup on Zoraida.

 

Though I wouldn't call the list doll dependent, I do want to try tarot reading more, since it is only really 1ss in this crew.

Often, if I am going for burning, I need the placement effect from resummoning, so healing the doll isn't really going to help. But that could be an artifact of my opponents' crews more than anything else.

That's why I refer to them as the Neverborn Allstars

What I thought was unique was running it with voices Pandora instead of Lilith, and using lilitu instead of Graves. Turns out there are several of us at least who figured out how well this works.

It is amazingly powerful.

Johan isn't super necessary. I build without him often. I tweak the list slightly based on circumstances most every game.

Definitely a good episode! Some really key points in there:

-Paralyze dora is the queen, and IMO, the strongest NBorn master in all strategies except quarters (Dreamer) and possibly headhunter (Lilith).

-Inflict is what you do to avoid having to use cards. It is very, very powerful, even without Misery stacking. I use it very often. A common activation for dora is to incite next to the paralyze target, paralyze it with a stone and a 13 (you are drawing 10 cards, so 13s are common), then inflict twice, holding your other high cards. Dora is often now in a spot where she is blocking enemies from Nekima and friends, but is nigh untouchable due to the strength of your control hand (especially relative to your opponent's after having to deal with all those flips), Fading Memory and Aether Connection.

I do think they spent less time talking over Voices 'dora than she deserves.

Primarily, while they did talk about how awesome Nekima is when you can paralyze enemies that threaten her, they didn't go into how impressively Nekima combos with Misery. The Bloody Beauty and Teach Them Fear both pulse range 4 WP duels. It is quite possible for Nekima to pulse 2-4 WP duels (range 4 at TN 13/14) per turn while killing 1-2 enemy models. Furthermore, she can capitalize on mood swing by killing threats while chaff is forced to activate. You often don't even need paralyze to keep her safe. If both Nekima and the Doppelganger get to attack an enemy before it can activate, it will die. I'm sure the guest knows this, and I'd love to have heard him expand on it.

Then, there are some bits I happen to disagree with. At least I've found what I think are more effective approaches (particularly for shooty crews, which I face very often).

First, while the front of Pandora's card is awesome, incite (with fading memory), paralyze and inflict really define her. She isn't a passive master.

Second, I dislike the depression approach, because activation control is king when you combine with Nekima, Doppel, Lure (Lilitu) and Ill Omens. You need that incite every turn. Bring 7 stones and stone for crows and cards. You really only need to paralyze the master and uber killy stuff like viks or howard. Even then, you can often use incite to keep them from activating before Nekima and the Doppel tear them down.

Third, they gave the impression of voices dora as ranged. She really isn't, imo. Getting in close gives you Ca7, no concern about cover, and forces randomization from enemy projectiles. Ca6 that cares about cover is far, far less reliable than Ca7 that doesn't care about cover. I use the projectile attack far less than the close attack. The board has to be really open, or the opponent really dangerous (viks) before I'll use the ranged method.

To get her there, take Lilitu. I really don't think you need Graves (though I do love him). Doppel and Nekima combine for insane killing power (the reason Doppel isn't a scheme runner very often is that she's following the big demon lady around, copying her sword). Turn 1, Lilitu and Doppel pull something into range for dora to incite (and possibly incite again). Now, she's likely half way up the board, engaged with something, and you have two incites down (preferably on stuff that already activated). Getting that first enemy into incite range with lures is really, really strong. Nekima and Doppel will kill it the following turn  Between ill omens and two more incites (up to 4 total), you can have your opponent's entire pile of weaker minions forced to go while Lilitu lures the beater into the waiting arms of Nekima and the Doppel.

In the end, however, the core of the Pandora uber squad is:

Pandora, Voices, Wings of Darkness, and (imo) Aether Connection

Primordial Magic

Nekima

Doppelganger, with RE if I have the extra stone

I personally go for Lilitu and Johan next. Graves is also great. The guest gives great advice on the rest of the models (i.e. Waldgeists and any of our many awesome scheme runners). Lust doesn't make the cut for me I like her, but you have to have enough models to score your VP, and that means stuff like fish and trees.

Lilitu also has awesome synergy with Wings of Darkness. Opponents going after Pandora will usually try to trap her from pushing. Lure is a move, however, so she can fly over enemy models to where she can now push again.

Enough from me! Great episode! Thanks, as always!

I'm about 25 minutes in, and there is so much I want to say about how Voices should be played  He has a lot I agree with, but he's playing her ranged when she's really better in melee, just like brawler 'dora, IMO.

Khyodee was right on about incite + paralyze to get around condition removal. That is huge, and much of why I don't bother with depression.

P.S. I also thought I was unique with the Neverborn Allstars approach

Tarot Reading was errata'd to be 2ss, FYI, so it's generally not worth taking if your only out of faction swampfiend is McTavish.

I wouldn't consider either to be worthwhile ways of going about it.

Plus, Chompy is important for a couple reasons:

1. Mobility

2. Projecting a charge threat zone

Even if he never attacks, his threat range + ability to reposition dreamer is really, really good.

I think you pay the tax unless you take Tarot Reading, right?

She is super fun, and super cool. My first master, and I'll always love her, but just to be clear:

In terms of winning games, she is no Dreamer, Lilith or Pandora. Those 3 are in a different league entirely. Pandora can reliably paralyze masters. Lilith moves models unlike anyone (even Colette). And Dreamer brings incredible summons, mobility and support (all the incorporeal wk 7 and pushing stuff is crazy fast).

That out of the way, I'll talk about what I think works for my favorite master:

-IME, McTavish, Iggy, and Doppelganger are her superstars, hands down.

-Once you have McTavish, it's really, really hard to avoid Waldgeists. They are so awesome for so many reasons, but when you add in their off-the-chain synergy with our favorite gator-master, they become must takes, I think. Only reason to leave them at home is if you go the Gremlin + Rooster route.

-Lilitu makes so many of my NBorn lists. With Doppel to copy and Zoraida's obey, your lure options become enormous.

-Johan is always important to have on hand for NBorn. Plus, his offense is on par with 10 point models, so if he does get into the fight, he's a beautiful Obey target.

-All our scheme runners fit nicely. Silurid/Gupps give you more McTavish friends (each + to hit matters a lot when you're going to also be using Obey for more shots). Tots give Doppel access to sprint. Madnesses are the masters of any board with lots of impassible terrain (though on such boards, I'd go Lilith or Dreamer if I'm playing competitively).

-Finally, the Nurse is great, but I find she often has to stay home. By the time I have the correct number of Waldgeists and scheme runners, I don't have space for her. 

And then there is Bad Juju, who simply doesn't work with Zoraida Lilith is his master.

Zoraida was my first master (love the aesthetic), but after I started playing other masters, she quickly fell off my radar. There simply wasn't ever a time I could imagine playing Zoraida, other than for nostalgia (ah, the newbie days!). All Zoraida could really do is voodoo tricks with Iggy, which if your opponent could counter, left Zoraida really weak. (Paralyze is done infinitely better by Pandora with Voices).

But then I read McTavish, and I realized that Neverborn could have their own ranged crew, something that none of those other masters really does well, using Zoraida!

The core of the crew:

Zoraida, all upgrades optional

McTavish, most likely Hexed Among You

Doppelganger

Iggy

You now have two very effective ways to attack at ranged: voodoo/iggy and McTavish. Doppelganger and Zoraida let you get more of whichever is working that turn.

If your opponent has both the activation control and condition removal, voodoo tricks won't work well. The good news is that Iggy can at least put down some gator snacks for McTavish, and you can pour your Zoraida/Doppel engine into McTavish instead.

Furthermore, you have very distinct ways of dealing damage: a ton of 2/4/6 flips from McTavish for taking down small stuff, focused McTavish shots for cheating in severe 6 to get around armor, and the Iggy burn pile for a pair of 6 (or more on one) damage ticks at the end of the turn (read up on condition resolution order, because you can do something nuts like burning 10 and have it resolve BEFORE the voodoo damage, based on who is first player, resulting in 10 damage THEN the 6 from voodoo, getting around Hard to Kill).

Henchmen and Enforcers are easy pickings for this crew. A henchman per turn is quite easy. Masters can even be taken down from the McTavish duplication insanity (snack + dopple + zoraida means up to 9 "McTavish" AP if the cards are flowing).

Typically, you'll want to take Hexed Among you and put in Waldgeists. They are always awesome, but especially in a crew that wants to keep the opponent away from the backline. Gupps, Silurids, Lilitu, a Nurse, Johan, etc... are all worth considering as well. If you can do your schemes without the extra runners, I prioritize Lilitu and Johan over the nurse, because Lilitu is amazing with Doppel and obey (potentially 6 Ca7 lures per turn), especially for pulling things into range of the kill squad, and Johan is Johan  The nurse has awesome tricks with Zoraida, of course, but I don't think you'll find you can fit her in.

So now I can take Pandora for cluster missions, Lilith for boards with lots of LOS-blocking terrain, Dreamer for quarters missions, and Zoraida for boards with little LOS-blocking (you don't care about cover)!

Or I just take Pandora for everything cause Voices + Nekima + Doppelganger makes for win...

I haven't listened yet, but when I contacted khyodee about doing Pandora, he said they had already recorded it and the guy uses a list like mine.

If so, the list is bonkers. Absolutely crushes anyone that doesn't see it coming, and most who do. I have stopped playing it lately because it gives my opponents fits. My first major tournament, she went undefeated with an average win diff of 6, and I was not playing for diff.

Excited to give it a listen and learn new stuff!

6 hours ago, Jordon said:

Maybe if it were a DF trigger (like the molemen), but having it naturally reduce to 0 would probably push it too much in the other direction as lower costed models essentially become completely ineffectual.

That would be the intended effect. As for if it'd be too powerful, I really don't know. Malifaux has that awesome property of "you don't have to kill your opponent's stuff". But then anything absolute can be problematic. My instinct is that it'd be a bad approach for that reason.

I think I like your 14 Wds suggestion the most.

I wonder if letting the ice golem armor reduce damage to zero would work. Would definitely give him a unique feel.

I think Colette is more all comers than Ramos. Ramos has a bit more versatility on strats, but Colette owns the schemes.

The real reason Colette crushes headhunter, for example, is that she can easily go for a 6-5 win. It forces your opponent to over extend.

On 4/8/2016 at 8:54 AM, Breng77 said:

a list I just tried with devastating effect was the following.

Colette 4 cache

-practiced production 

-seize the day

-cabaret choreography 

myranda

-imbued energies

2x coryphee

december acolyte

performer

malifaux raptor

3x mechanical dove.

This is a monstrously good list, FYI. There are very few masters than can put together a single list this flexible and powerful.

(Of course, lists don't need to be all-comers, which is part of what makes Malifaux such an awesome game).