Andrew James Princep

12 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Let me explain a little concept called "Diff"...

I like how you think its sensible to cling to a scoring system where differential is really important and redesign/rebalance the whole game instead of just tweaking the scoring system for tournaments. 

explain that maybe?

23 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Lets face it, most round 5s are a bit lame

what if, and bear with me here, instead of rebalancing the entire game you just... resigned? You know, if the result is already a foregone conclusion.

Like, go watch a professional match of any game from Starcraft II to Go, the vast majority are won by resignation 

I would say that pandoras crew currently has very minimal problems with armour depending on how big the model is. Some of them, you should probably ignore (lock them down, push them away, block their charges, slow+stun them) and those are the ones with armour+2 and healing (god damn ice golems). Otherwise you can reliably put quite a lot of damage on a model if you, for instance: self loathing+ slow trigger, fears given form, glimpse of insanity, and then use carver or iggy to put burning on. Assuming pandora is close to the enemy model thats at least 1+1+1+1+1+1+1 = 6 damage spread across 3 activations and minimal wasted damage if you were using bonus actions and low damage AoE attacks to ping and add conditions. Between Candy and Pandora you want to try to slow+stun as many of these big beaty armoured models as possible anyway, and you can use your Misery to either ping them or to move them into annoying positions. 

On 3/8/2019 at 12:51 PM, Nephetina said:

Why are we gone from this...

Misery: After  an  enemy  model  within  4 Cheats  Fate,  it  suffers  1  damage  after resolving the current Action or Ability.

...to this...?
Misery: Once per Activation. After an enemy model  within  6  gains  Stunned  or  a Condition listed in this model's Opportunist
Ability, this model may either move it up to 2" or have it suffer 1 damage.

The crew has many ways to move the enemy around, so i don´t think the 2" are really helpful and alternative 1 damage per activation, if stunned (also other conditions, but mostly stunned) will be applied, is really meh. 1 damage if the enemy model cheates fate is less complicated and more effective. It works in many ways and keeps Pandoras "Don´t do that!" without the negative experience, that the enemy models can do nothing.

The Scales of Justice got back the old effect, so i hope the woes will too.

I say this without reservation but with a lot of restraint - I have not read anything on these forums that i have disagreed with more strongly in the entire beta. 

Old Misery: Maybe ping 4 or 5 damage a turn (usually not, half the time the enemy cheats its nowhere near your crew)

New Misery: endlessly ping models for 1 damage because your crew hands out conditions like candy, or you can reposition models to your hearts content. Someone hits Pandora, gains stunned, is pushed 2" away and is now likely out of melee range. Pandora or Candy does a nice AOE, hands out stunned or slow, everyone is pinged for extra damage or repositioned to block charges, clear charge lanes, or set up future moves. You have a tonne of flexibility, reliability, and finesseability. The new version is so manifestly superior in every possible way I am actually floored anybody would want to go back. 

Also, while I am here, opportunist is MAD good. Pandora and Carver stripping off focused when an enemy tries to hit them to steal the plus flips is beyond delicious. Candy taking someones fast is also ❤️ and unless it was their 3rd action, prevents them declaring a third action.  Boom.

On 3/24/2019 at 6:42 PM, santaclaws01 said:

Both conditions are gained at the same time, so the model gaining the conditions can only get hit with Misery 1 time.

Also, "once per activation" still applies.

On 2/19/2019 at 7:06 PM, lusciousmccabe said:

Well, the average value of a card in your hand is also going to be one higher. So the effect is like +1 stat but with a cap of 13+(whatever your stat is), ignoring jokers. So not as good, but still good.

Random aside, the reason your flips were so good in the game you described was probably part because of your hand being meh. You'd have to have some nerve to hope to top-deck summons in that situation though. 😉

Yeah, I didnt have that kind of nerve so dreamer just ran around shooting people trying to deny strat  

I guess what I was driving at is that the *really* key things come down to *i cheat  a 13 and you cant beat that without a RJ so my action goes off* once per turn, and also holding high cards for summons or other tactical actions. I think having a +1 is usually going to take your opponent to a tie rather than failing actions in general due to the imbalance between offensive and defensive stats. 

On 2/19/2019 at 8:08 PM, Fixxer said:

 

Because I think it feels dumb to attack yourself and defend yourself especially when, in game terms, we have a representation of that attack action with Pandora and Candy. Makes the narrative confusing. 

 

I guess you never watched Fight Club

6 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

Chiiiilllll Steve 

Outcasts have generally higher stats so not as urgent an addition to the faction IMO but in m3e condition removal will be important so I can see why everyone wants it

1 hour ago, katadder said:

All? What about outcasts? Who have Johan, who needs a suit at range 6 when he's move 4 and costs 8 out of theme

As people pointed out in that thread, Outcasts also have a load of models that have limited condition removal  (i.e. Drache Trooper) and the ability to end (Shrug off) or ignore (Nihilism) conditions . 

Also, people even sure that so many other factions have "lots" of condition removal? Nvb has: Titania can end conditions on herself (via a trigger on an attack that isnt built in), Serena is versatile and can remove conditions on her heal, but that has a 3" range (and is a bonus action) and she is quite squishy, Bad Juju can end conditions all day long but... thats not what you brought him for so its a huge waste for him as a model and also if you hire out of keyword thats 11 stones, Rougarou have Shrug off, and bultungin have the same ability as bad juju but nobody is taking them out of keyword. Honestly Serena is the only one you would take, costs 8 and is not particularly good outside of her theme, so I dont see that Nvb are in any position different to outcasts. 

17 hours ago, Fixxer said:

Ignoring targeting restrictions would be if he Sined off a Charge attack to Serena who cant be targeted by attacks generated by charges. The Sin would ignore her restriction and she'd take the hit regardless of her Disguised ability. 

I dont think a model attacking itself really does any good. Its not an obey, so the acting model would flip both cards, if Im not mistaken. So what, they cheat down to miss themselves? Its kind of a silly interpretation of the rule, IMO. 

 

I dont think this is the intent at all and would ask for clarification.

 

They could cheat down even if you made them attack one of their other models though, what do you imagine is the difference?

10 minutes ago, Red_deff said:

I don't think it's true to say increasing your deck average by 1 is the same as increasing all your models stats by 1. Increasing your deck average gives you a better chance of winning the initial duel but when it comes to cheating if your opponent has a higher card in hand then it really doesn't matter how good the rest of your deck is.

VERY much this. It helps you clutch things towards the end of your turn, but it has a fairly minimal impact on crucial actions (yours or your opponents). 

Also probably worth mentioning that even with the cards i removed in the image above and the absolute FIRE flips i managed in some of the later turns, in both the final turns my starting hand had no cards better than a 9 so i couldnt summon with dreamer and my two stitched (the best way of cycling cards) were dead. 

If it was a bit easier to get sin tokens on enemy models I think it would be hilarious to have in a crew with Pandora and candy, making your opponent tear their hair out

13 minutes ago, lusciousmccabe said:

Does this mean they don't heal from standing in underbrush markers?

If they get concealment then they should also heal. They are not being affected by terrain in any case, they can be in it without being affected by it.

It fixes some overly squishy models (carver, I'm REALLY looking at you) and makes them much less likely to get smooshed. This is very comparable to things like Servant of Dark Powers on a Hanged, you pay a hefty price and in return you get a model a lot more likely to do what you paid for.

4 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

People don't really use Gamble with the current version though, not unless they've set it up first with the trigger on their close attack or have something else assuring it. With last edition it wasn't as bad because they had H2K, could cheat the flip, and would get reactivate if they got brought down, and then just heal again from Dreamer. But there's a people weren't using Gamble in other crews and even with Collodi they were only uncommon takes.

What people? I use it, and its awesome. Like, REALLY awesome. with Rake the Eyes its actually abusive, and in a crew with lucid dreams its extremely likely you will win the flip. It also cant be resisted which is really excellent. 

23 hours ago, Bluefyr said:

I disagree on the simple fact that averages dont play into any given game as they require large amounts of data. It becomes luck based to a certain extent and if you get 3 or 4 flips with no low cards you have just set your deck back a chunk with no gain. Yes you can also flip thw opposite but it comes down to luck. Being forced to get rid of a card that you dont want to is a NPE period. 

I agree, abilities that can turn against you are terrible which is why stitched are garbage and nobody ever uses Gamble Your Life, right? I mean really 🙄🙄🙄

It doesn't "come down to luck" like somehow it could easily go either way. It overwhelmingly goes in your favour, your have a VERY low probability to make your deck worse after several uses of the ability. Like 1 in hundreds of thousands. As an argument against the ability as written that is frankly bullshit. 

This was from my last game with dreamer, cards removed from my deck, I can tell you I didn't give a shit about losing the 12 or the 9: 

43 minutes ago, bsm86 said:

Yes. I don't have the page at hand but there is passage in the rulebook that states that one action (and all its consequences) must be resolved before a new action can start.

I want this to be true but it's not entirely clear to me that the charge is not an action in its own right

1 hour ago, Kouzelnik said:

I think it is bad and undeserved nerf.
Misery now is almost useless compared to old version.  And Pandora was always about dealing damage.   Now ve have a strange and not needed trick.
Opportunist is bad and, more worse, overcomplicated.  Additional things to remember for me and opponnent, and I don't like the idea we must put a condition just to remove it for +flip.
I don't like new Woes. Before this rework it was one of my two favorite crews.
Now I just don't know why I will play them.
Please return it all as it was before. 
Or make Misery like in M2E dealing damage for Wp duels.

Opportunity sometimes removes conditions your opponent is putting on like focus or fast. I dont see how that is bad

And Pandora hasnt been about dealing damage for the whole of M3E, and I dont think that is going to change, nor should it. Embrace pandora as a control master - if you want to just deal damage then try nekima. 

11 hours ago, Bluefyr said:

I like this one a little better but im getting tired of neverborn being picked to have a negative effect with their abilities. Why are we forced to get rid of one if we flip a 13 / 13 / 13 for example or even a 9/ 9 / 9. Why cant it say "you may remove up to 1 card. Discard 2 if you dont remove any, then shuffle 1 back into your deck." Or even discard all cards not removed from the game. Why are we forced to hurt ourselves on an unlucky flip??

Chances you will flip at least 1 weak : approximately 75%

chances you will flip 13/13/13: approximately 1 in 6000

Why are you even complaining about this?

11 minutes ago, Hawkoon said:

You're not taking the opponents action like you do with Obey and similar actions that generate new actions. Not generating a new action means you don't get to the step where you can declare triggers on the opponents action. The only action taken is Self Loathing, and thereby the only triggers you may declare are the ones on the Self Loathing action.

Except for the self-loathing trigger which declares one of the enemy models triggers

2 hours ago, Rift said:

Must say, I initially only skimmed the Lucid dream rework and read it as reveal 3 cards, remove one, discard one and I read “set aside” as place back on top of deck. I thought that’s pretty good, helps the nightmare stack its next duel and after wards the deck gets shuffled when its activation is done.

 

Now though, it just seems more of the same, reveal 3 remove 1, discard 1 and shuffle at the end… I still think at the very least it should have “may” in the wording for in case you draw 3 good cards.

 

Still would’ve preferred the way I initially thought it was

That would be more than "pretty good" that would be amazing, and therefore far too good to have on a bunch of shit minions.

5 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

I think you have the auras confused, I started the topic because I think cheating face down is too weak and I said pride is a mistake because the aura is too strong...

Ahh, sorry, trying to do too many things at once so i got them mixed up. Tha'tll teach me for using this at work

1 hour ago, Angelshard said:

 

Well it's the same aura as it was in m2e so it's been tried and tested for several years. If you go back and look at Colloddi itwas one of the only effigies he (almost) never used. And that was when the aura was always on and it gave an extra push to your master.

The game hans't changed in any way to substantially affect cheating face down.

 

Equally, as other people have pointed out, it was what made Cheating Bastard Lynch such a ridiculous powerhouse late in M2e, if you are trying to claim that the ability is not good. several of the top players in the UK piloted this very successfully

I love how there are people claiming this ability is completely OP and others that it is garbage. Reading through this level of hyperbole is better than a morning cup of coffee. 

Perhaps, people should have more time on the table before making their conclusions. 

1 minute ago, Raging_Iggy said:

I don't need to answer to my question. I already have my opinion and shared it in this thread.

That's a question that all of us should ask ourselves, to judge if Ldreaming is balanced or not. Just an extreme example: if you always start thinking that you would like another FA instead Ldreaming, then Ldreaming is bad. If you are thinking " I would never trade Ldreaming with anything", than it's too much strong.

I think it's important to consider in this that most of the models with lucid dreams probably wouldn't get a different bonus action if the ability was removed.

1 minute ago, Adran said:

I'm not sure you do have diminishing returns (until you just have a deck of 12s and 13s anyway). The improvement is small per use,. but will keep going

There are some diminishing returns but it doesn't cut in till about 20 cards removed from the deck. What you see is an appreciable departure from a linear increase in the average value of a flip per card removed (plot 1 in my post). But it does still trend upwards very steadily.

You're definitely right that people have a lot of weird perceptions about spoiling the deck and so on. It's like the idea that if you flip three heads in a row you're more likely to flip tails next. The deck is random, and it's finite sure but you get to the end and then you shuffle it and start again so actually it's not really finite. It's an infinite well of cards, and you should treat it as such.