Carcosa

OH!!! Justin, I do have one question. What is the benchmark of peon/minion/enforcer/henchman for this experiment, or should that too be based on faction?

@ Justin Ok, I accept that it may change no ones mind, and I accept that people will pick it apart. I will read nothing into your choices and treat it as a blank slate. I guess I have some work to do

@ Justin I am willing to take that challenge, how many Masters would it take to make my case?

@Dirial The points get "watered down" to a degree, sure because no one wants to sound like an imperious dickhead when trying to get their point across, but the opposition to any point is under no such constraint to do so. The simple fact is, not ONE person has made -any- argument whatsoever to support prompt in it's current format, and everyone who has even tried to do so has admitted it is "fractured", which to me means "yeah, I know it's busted, but hey, that's the rules and there will be no errata, so go suck a lemon" Better yet I f I brought out arguments to support that contention, and used the crew itself and "did not look at it in a vacuum", the argument merely becomes more damning for the crew.

kadeton I never said Colette was busted!! I never said her crew was busted!! ALL I said that was busted is the lack of restrictions on Prompt in comparison to the other -similar- actions other masters can employ.

Oh come on, you can't get past your first sentence without having to deal with the inbuilt limit of Obey!! Obey says make an attack, Prompt gives you a 3" push and an AP, so you can attack, support, drop schemes, whatever. YES, Lucius can give stuff to non austringer minions (restrictions) and even more on a suit (restrictions), hell, he can even burn 3 wounds of someone to get the suit, but even that has two tiers of restrictions!! This is the definition of disingenuous argument, and I don't mean to say people arguing against the notion are disingenuous, because that is patently untrue, but the argument you are employing is!

Seriously, you want me to compare Colette to Lucius as total models?? I know who is gonna look worse in that comparison As for Obey Vs Prompt, Yes, I can Obey -anyone bar a master- with it, it's bloody great!! I can make you nutpunch yourself -ONCE PER TURN with a certain model-!!! But I can make Howard Langston, or the Duet, or any other heavy hitter in the arcanist arsenal move 3" as a push (so I can get out of engagements) and tear you 3 new holes, and I don't even have to worry about it being interrupted, because even if the model involved stops, it is not them doing the lifting to a degree, it is the master. Believe me dude, I am not looking at this in a vacuum. I -am- talking about it in a vaccum to a degree however, sure.

No, I utterly reject this line of reasoning because I am -not- looking at Colette's ability in any kind of isolation. I invite everyone to compare Prompt to any other master based form of giving out their AP's and compare them as a group, Be it Prompt, Commanding presence, Obey, A new thread, etc etc. All of them have a restriction on targeting, this is a fact I will not argue, but I -will- argue that prompt is uniquely permissive in choice of targets, and it is a point that; again, no one has even tried to make an argument against, and has done quite the opposite in fact, even you!! I don't mind some A-grade filth, go for it, it just makes me want to plot and plan more and try again, but there is filth, and there is busted. When even your critics are scrambling to point out that some thing is not "broken", just "fractured", you know even they cannot say "it's all good man" with a straight face.

Would you be inclined to expound upon your thoughts in the collette thread?

Do you mean the entire available roster Fetid?

I just want to chirp in for a moment and note that I don't think guild minions suck, I think they are very cool actually. As for comparing Colette to Lucius, I was never really comparing the 2 masters per se, but Lucius's Command vs Colette's Propt -nothing else-

@ Blaze Nononono, you are misunderstanding me here dude!! I am not ripping on you, nor did I complain about your crew (I even thought I made it clear enough I was not). My comments are strictly limited to -Colette's Propmt-, no more. I know you agree it is "fractured", I merely go the step further to say that -as the ability stands right now- it goes beyond fractured. Having no restrictions, a good range, a reliably flip-able target number and no drawback for failure, well, that's not "fractured". It's part of the game, and I doubt (severely doubt) that she will receive any errata or anything, but I do think that it is a discussion worth having on the forums of a game that values input from the players. I made mistakes in that game, more than the 2 we discussed at the end of the game when I sit back and look at it, and they were very much my bad, and I don't want this to sound like I am trying to deflect my mistakes. I made some bad choices in crew composition, and I wasted some stones because of that. I also made some bad tactical decisions, and I will admit that as well. What I won't do is say that the -only- thing I had a problem with is just me pissing and moaning about Colette, especially when I have seen not one person defend it as a balanced ability -in the arcanist forum- Still looking forward to our next game, no matter who you take, and I hope it does not take as long for the next one Brother!

@ Blaze Remember buddy, I never complained about the rest of the stuff you are mentioning, and even said it was fine as that is the way the crew (not your's in particular for the day) is set up. I am -only- complaining about prompt, specifically it's low cost, no drawback and free targeting of any model. Hell, I encouraged you to take the most broken thing you could think of with her!! I don't mind losing, you know this after way too many years to count, but you also know I will look at things and say "that particular thing is just fucked up", and I even do it when I -win- games and I am talking of my own army!

@ Dirial ALL of Lucius's abilities are tuned to minions (or mimics, all 4 of them), correct? GIVEN this knowledge, would you choose Lucius as a master if you were playing all enforces or Henchmen? No, of course you would not, you choose minions, or you choose a different master. Given that most minions tend to be cheaper than enforcers or Henchmen, you tend to have a larger crew. Assuming a scheme heavy environment, the loss of Lucius will have a far less effect on your crew performing it's role than a crew that has less, but more specialized models.

That still does not address the basic point. Prompt is usable on any -model-, Command is limited to non-stringer -minions-. That distinction plays a major role in crew construction.

Math I agree with your assessment, which is why on the other thread I asked if prompt was too powerful. This thread however is to determine if a Lucius crew is effective in running scheme based strats and schemes -if he dies-. I believe that given the restrictions of Lucius's abilities, a person is more likely to build a crew that -benefits- from his abilities, rather than -relies- on his abilities.

What part of Zfeind's posts do you agree with Strumpet?

If that is what you both got, I did not make my question clear enough, so my bad. If you want to compare both questions, (Lucius Vs Colette) the question would be, is it fair that Colette can target any model, multiple times when Lucius cannot, let alone any model, (and let alone any guardsman)

The question is, does a crew built with Lucius as a master suffer if Lucius is dead. The caveat is, he makes the crew better if he is alive, of course he does. Given those two statements, if Lucius dies, does the crew fall apart? I would say no as the kinds of crews he tends to lead are usually capable of fulfilling scheme based strategies without him.

As a spinoff of the question I posted about collette (prompt), I have faced resistance on the concept that Lucius crews can get the job done without the masked crusader. Personally, I think the kinds of crews that Lucius can bring to the table tend to operate quite fine without him, but are certainly boosted by his presence on the table, and I would say that weather he was in his Guild, or neverborn state (though for the purpose of this thread, let's stick to guild) In all honesty all the times I have played Lucius, he starts as important for his AP multiplication abilities but when the rubber hits the road, the crew because it tends to be minion centric and generally largish nature tend to be able to fulfil most scheme marker or location based strategies all by there own. When you make a gunline, Lucius makes that gunline -better-, but it is more Dashel that makes it really rock and roll. Lucius, to me, makes everything "better", and better IS, better, but better is not always "optimal".

@ Zfeind Start a thread in the guild forum, I will jump in

@ Dirial. I agree, Lucius buffs his crew, but if he dies, well, he dies, and the crew tends not to suffer all that much.

See, I don't even mind the Cassandra/understudy + Child/just like you section of it, that needs more investment of SS's (even if you would probably do it anyway) but the ability to do it over and over again on the one -MODEL-.

Here's the thing, I -don't- see it as too powerful. Giving up a masters AP to give Langston or the Duet a 3" push and an AP is fine, especially for a support master like Colette, it is their bread and butter. What I am adverse to is being able to target the same -model- on a consistant basis. Even Lucius is limited to non stringer minions, once per turn, and can give other benefits to replace the 3" move -if you get the suit-

Oh, I doubt it will be errated either Dirial, I will just be more aware of it in the future. I am just curious if even the Colette players think it is a little OTT.