Khyodee

8 hours ago, Roadhouse said:

2e Z box has Silurids instead of Waldgeists
2e Dreamer has Alps+ all the 3e contents.

Pretty sure both are still findable and Z Silurids are loads better than Waldgeists. Though if you were to suggest a 2 crew path Titania Box+New Z box+ Emissary Box is pretty golden, though after that they diverge heavily, wanting $50 purchases that are keyword locked.

Oddly the easiest keyword to build out is the summoner. 2e box+Serena Madness Box+Teddy. This is all the summonable models and gives you a very solid list on the table

I agree if you have access to the M2E boxes, the lists change a lot. That said, I'm future proofing and don't want to make recommendations on old boxes when 3 years from now you can't find those boxes anywhere.

On 5/16/2021 at 1:19 AM, Vessien said:

Checking Youko's list, and taking into account what has been said In this recent thread, I'd put Hinamatsu and Charm Warders as green and move Deadly Performance to yellow.

This way, with the green buys you can make a list like:

New Youko Hamasaki Crew (Ten Thunders)
Size: 50 - Pool: 6
Leader:
  Youko Hamasaki
Totem(s):
  Chiyo Hamasaki
Hires:
  Hinamatsu
  Bill Algren
  Geisha
  Geisha 2
  Charm Warder
    Trained Ninja
  Charm Warder 2
    Masked Agent
 

(With space to play with the different upgrades on different models).

 

Additionally, I'd consider adding one versatile box as orange. Here, the Dawn Serpent seems like a good choice from a budget point of view. Being Lords of War and Silent Strike more expensive and less cost effective options.

Sounds fine.

 

On 5/15/2021 at 8:07 AM, Essexkiwi said:

For your Bandit one, I'd switch around the yellow and orange a bit.

Dead Outlaws just don't do it for me in a Bandit crew.  In Tormented keyword they're gold, but in Bandit outside of putting on Staggered or Slow they have minimal use and other minions outshine them.  Their ability to put Fast on a model is only really useful IME to Sue, and getting that to work is situational.  I'd bumpt them down to orange. 

The ones you've got in yellow, the Emissary/Effigy should be top of that list.  The Emissary in Bandit is super good.   
Wokou Raiders come in next for me.  Definitely need bumping up from Orange.  I'd use them far more often than a Dead Outlaw.  

The Paid in Blood box not so imporant for me now that Midnight Stalker lost Demise Eternal.  He was an auto-include before for scheming, now.. not so sure.  The other two I rarely if ever use.  Others may get better mileage out of Hans but I find him near useless.  Can't wait for Catalan Snipers to render him fully redundant. 
  
I'd bump the A Hard Day's Work up to orange just for the option of a Prospector.  Sure Parker can generate soulstones but that's not always a given.  A Prospector is always reliable for that.
Barbaros can be useful for sure, but maybe not enough to elevate to orange.

Agree Bayou Smugglers should get a mention having Bandit keyword, but second from last in red category.  At least their marker drag makes them useful for something, Benny should stay rock bottom.

I still think Stalker is needed for things like Symbols and Prospector feels unnecessary for Bandits, but the other changes seem fine.

On 5/14/2021 at 6:00 PM, CateranLlama said:

Technically the Bayou Smugglers are in Parker's keyword, but I haven't been able to get any use out of them since they were errata'd so hard way back when.

Good catch, I'll add them to the list.

On 5/14/2021 at 1:26 PM, touchdown said:

If you had to pick a crew box to be green, I agree it's Loyalty to Coin, but honestly the only models I really consider core for the Viks are in the master box. I branch to versatile as much as other mercenary models after Vanessa and some ronin. I would bump the starter box up to Orange for sure. Yannic could make Desperate Mercs worthwhile, and the Brawler is amazing at keeping the Viks upright if you have to fight in the middle.

Easy fix.

On 5/15/2021 at 3:04 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, for Dreamer you've currently got 53 stones of models, and probably want to hold back at least 17-24 stones of that for summons, and even that is a big compromise.

Dreamer can do a lot more then just dump cards into summoning every round (especially with nerfs to it) and you still have 15ss of Alps that are going to likely die shortly after being summoned because your putting them into your opponents beaters more often the not.

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If the idea is to be remotely competitive, I think the current state is fairly misleading. 2 boxes is not enough.

I think your on a different page here. Competitive here isn't building a list to win a 50 man event, its aim is at a new player going to his local meta 8 man event, probably with a wide range of skill. People aiming to win a larger event will buy what they need and don't need my advice on what to buy....they probably own the faction anyways.

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I also notice Titania only has 39 stones.

Plus upgrades and stones. Sure you have no flexibility other then upgrades, but it works and yes its a playable crew.

On 5/15/2021 at 7:06 AM, wizuriel said:

Kin

Feel Merris should bump up when pig fly for Kin to at least yellow. Merris is really helpful to kin and Sammy can summon in flying piig

Easy fix.

On 5/15/2021 at 7:06 AM, wizuriel said:

Tricksy/family

Gluttony can be really nice these keywords. Family has lots of corpses and moving people into pit traps can do a lot of damage.

I'll never recommend a new player buying a $50 model that they may use.

On 5/15/2021 at 7:06 AM, wizuriel said:

Wizz-bang

Unfortunately I feel they really need Sammy. The rest of the box isn't helpful but she is needed.

I originally had her higher, but I was told by several players that she isn't needed/worth buying for just her model *shrug*.
 

On 5/15/2021 at 7:06 AM, wizuriel said:

Tri-chi

Akaname should be at least yellow. If you want to run Cooper you will probably need akaname for both poison and they can be good scheme runners.

I'm not sure if Cooper is a high take and as scheme runners they die to a breeze with no defense tech other then hiding.

On 5/16/2021 at 9:06 AM, belorey said:

I would change the order of priorities with Hoffman boxes, Basse and Nellie boxes.

1) Hoffman Core box > Support staff > Rift in the Union > Keepeing the Peace

I can see flipping Support Staff with Keeping the Peace, but I do not understand everyone's love of Howard in Augmented as he is worse then the Peacekeeper in every way imo and you already have tons of healing so you don't need the Steamfitters unless you really want to drop lots of markers (and honestly they get sniped out anyways as they die easier then most in this list).

On 5/16/2021 at 9:06 AM, belorey said:

2) Nellie Core box > Pale Rider > Guild Steward > Scooped = Lucius Core box (or get a Lawyer from a friend)

I feel like at this point, why are you even playing Nellie? I would rather just suggest picking her up after another master if your just buying versatile and out of keywords.

On 5/16/2021 at 9:06 AM, belorey said:

3) Basse Core box > Sand Worm > Trappers (1 box) > From Above > Pale Rider > Fool's Gold = Trappers (2nd box)

I'm fine with putting Sand Worm before the 2nd Trapper box and dropping Keeping and Steward to red. Austringers are fine, but I there are plenty of pools you don't take them into, hence orange. As for Rough Riders, they die way to easy for their cost and just never end up being worth their cost from what I've experience with them and from what other good players have said as well.

On 5/15/2021 at 7:22 PM, dancater said:

OK, my 10 cents worth..

Academic:

I am torn, Heavy Metal certainly makes the best economic sense but I prefer other models with Sandeep. Not having Kandara hurts my soul, admittedly partially as a pre-errata holdover, but I still consider her near essential and on that alone would grade her yellow or orange. I'd drop the Ice Gamin/Golem down, they simply are the least useful Elemental choice for mine.

I'm fine with moving Ice Gamin/Golem down to bottom of Orange. As for Kandara, I honestly think she isn't needed at all right now as Kudra does a similar job, but better now.

On 5/15/2021 at 7:22 PM, dancater said:

Augmented:

I'd move Langston and the Steamfitters up to essential. A Steamfitter boosts your crew and is an excellent Magical Training placement. Langston is the premier beater Enforcer choice with the Medical Automaton as a Living/Construct. Core+Support+Rift and you've got your solid Hoffman crew, I'd like a cheap fast scheme runner but you have Watcher's in Yellow, although for that reason I'd move Arachnophobia up to Orange.

I've always felt people overvalue Langston as he is worse then the Peacekeeper and Joss in about every way unless your playing MS&U. Steamfitters are ok, but I honestly still don't take them very often unless you need lots of marker dropping as you have tons of healing between Hoffman, Attendant, Toolkit, and Automaton. I'm fine with bumping up Arachnids as 4 Action models can really get work done and I still love them since I got so much work out of them pre-nerf.
 

On 5/15/2021 at 7:22 PM, dancater said:

Chimera:

The only thing here is I'd move December's beasts up to Yellow, the Blessed is supremely flexible, a healing Silent One literally never hurts and the Hoar Cats, while maybe not first class, are functional cheap scheme runners with actual bite potential, I could even see an argument for them in Green, but not quite with one OOK and Hoar Cats being sub-par.

I've been back and forth on the Blessed since the Cerberus can fill the same role, but I agree that Hoarcats are fine cheap "filler" model when you need more AP.

On 5/15/2021 at 7:22 PM, dancater said:

Foundry:

I don't really play them but with the Sparks changes and given I love the Mechanized Porkchop I'd move them up to Yellow. Not much else to say, that's likely a flawed personal preference anyway.

Another one I've been torn on is how good Sparks actually is now. I think bottom of Yellow is probably right since he can heal and make things fast consistently now.

On 5/15/2021 at 7:22 PM, dancater said:

Performer:

I simply wouldn't get two boxes of Coryphee, although I know why you did. I'd switch one of the Coryphee down to Yellow and put Angelica and Carlos up to Green, if only for variety, flexibility and pure fun, although Ice Dancers are pretty bad sadly. God I wish Harata Ngaatoro was better value, he is an amazing addition to a Showgirl crew, but you're correct, on a budget with two basically totally useless Explorer models he can't climb higher on the list, but if you could get him alone cheaply he'd be Green all the way.

I disagree on the Coryphee since you need two boxes to even run a Duet since you want to option to split them (yea you can magnetize, but I don't recommend messing with it for brand new folk) and barring Colette, Coryphee are why you play performer. The models are just crazy good for their cost and you lose a lot of power without them. It doesn't hurt this is also one of the few crews I have 20+ games with as well, so I can speak from experience on her.

20 hours ago, SEV said:

I agree with Alcathous for Fae and for Carver (especially in woe).

In Fae the Howling should be in orange. 

Orange seem fines for Howling.

20 hours ago, SEV said:

In nightmare you really need the 3 minions boxes so they should all be green. 

Pre-nerf I would be more inclined to agree and as heavy as I run on Stitched with dreamer, I think yellow is fine for it to keep things on a budget at green.

20 hours ago, SEV said:

In Swampfiend, I don't see neither Hinamatsu or the Rider as mandatory (they are fine versatile, so orange)... But the Bolor box and probably the Silurid box can be green. I hired the Emissary way more often than Hina or Rider. I would put him in yellow. Vasilia worth it mostly if you go for BBS as well, if you don't WW is definitely better (Ilin the spirit of you budget list, I think they can all be red, since you also need the Stitch box with them). Spawnmother and Gator are also useful hire in some context,I think they can be move to Orange as well.

The Bokor and Silirids are solidly yellow since they are out of faction models that can't be used in other NB crews, while Hina and Hooded can fit into anything. Zoraida imo is one of the worst masters for following my guidelines as she tends to favor out of faction models, taxed models, and awkward purchases (like buying Zipp box for a single model).
 

20 hours ago, SEV said:

I understand why you put Teddy in green for Woe since he's a natural hire with Kade... But most of the time this is not the best way to invest 17ss... The Rider and Hinamatsu will make the cut way more ofter. than Carver (usually better than Teddy). I think all those options have their merit (so all yellow for me). Lyssa should be orange (they can be useful as a cheap scheme runner). Serena, Wrath and The Emissary are also all valid options and can be orange as well. 

Moving Hooded green and Teddy as bottom or orange makes sense (it was my original thought that someone argued against). Moving Lyssa and Serena up is fine.

23 hours ago, Alcathous said:

Fae: Emissary should be green and Killjoy should be orange. Emissary should be in your main list over KJ. KJ is much more situational, harder to use, and would need to be flexed out sooner. Hooded rider and rougaru should be yellow. Serena should go down to orange.

Moving Emissary, Killjoy, and Hooded seems fine. I'm not a big fan of rougaru and think Serena is a better fit.
 

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Savage: Crew looks good for the cost, but Cyclops are pretty much mandatory. I'd leave your core the same (it's good for learning) but move Cyclops to green. Lyssa should be yellow; no one should be buying changelings before Lyssa. The Howling should get on the list, either red/orange.

Top of yellow for budget reasons I think are fine for Cyclops, which are you first secondary purchase. The Lyssa being yellow seems a stretch to me. As for The Howling, I just have to disagree on them as Bultungin are crap really and I would sooner go out of keyword for something in that roll (or heck pay the tax on the Insidious Madness).
 

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Nightmare/Woe: Carver should be orange at least. Opportunist (Focus) is definitely tech worth having in rotation.

Sure

1 hour ago, Da Git said:

I would 100% of the time be putting Lampads & Restless Spirit in green and Draugr in orange.

both models are basically auto-takes in my crews, especially post errata.

Lots of debate on this choice, so I just deferred the top ranked Reva player I know and he said Draugr.

18 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Drowned are often the best summon for Kirai, so I would definielt make that box Green.

Its already a $142 base box and your still missing options. So for budget reasons, I'm keeping them at yellow. That said if budget isn't an issue, then sure you should go ahead and pick them up.

22 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

Pretty good, but I'm not a super competitive player. I do think the Dead Rider is sometimes a bit higher than I would suggest, but I know others swear by him. 

Experimental I think you are going to want those Nurses before Dead Rider. Sad part is the rest of the box isn't great. 

I could see it going either way, but if you already have Rogue, the support models probably are a better first purchase. The original lists the boxes of the same color were just alphabetical and everyone thought it was purchasing order so I just changed it to be that.

19 hours ago, Sweet Tooth said:

Was wondering when you'd make it to Guild.

I think Internal Investigation is a must buy, I bring Alan, an Investigator, & a FW in nearly every list with Lucius. After that it's tough since I like a single changeling, or Grimwell, or the Rider.

I find that version of the list is to parasitic (this models needs to do X first, before Y model can do Z sorta thing) and it needs something to hold up against a aggressive attacker. I personally like the Guardian version as it gives you lots of options and a bodyguard whose armor is unlikely to be countered since most people don't associate armor with Lucius.

19 hours ago, Sweet Tooth said:

For Lady J, I think for a new player, her core box, Six Feet Under (LM & Exorcists), and Stewie are what I'd recommend starting with. While Jury is great, she's more a tech piece and Domadores won't shine unless you're bringing the Rider/Emissary for Undead Obeys. And Recruiters stink, plain & simple.  Meanwhile Lone Marshal is a near auto take for J and Stewie can help focus stack early while providing heals & roadblocks late game. Lone Marshal & Stewie are both good picks with other keywords as well.

I had this discussion with another guild player and the problem while the LM is clearly one of the best models in guild, you struggle to make a decent 50ss list (exorcists die to a breeze in my experience) if you buy it first. I disagree to the Recruiters as I think the model may be slightly overcosted, but its a fine model in the games I've seen it. It dissuade attacks into the Domadors since most people know they just replace.  Domadors are stronger just attacking to injury and heal your frontline (or the Recruiter) at the same time.

20 hours ago, Corwin said:

Yes and no, in guild I really like using Lucius as my a damage dealers with Hidden Sniper and Expert Marksman. Pump up him, Agent 46  and the Doppleganger up with Lawers and changelings and kill whatever gets within 12 inches of anything. You can Lure things in with the Doppelganger and beat them up one by one using there own attack against them.

Sure that works against a passive meta, but any opponent worth their salt that sees that list will have a beater model into your crew turn 1 killing before you can really counter-punch them.

15 minutes ago, Corwin said:

I'm not a top tier player by any means but as for Lucius I would change familiar faces and protect and serve. I am not sure if I have ever made a list that did not have at least one changeling or the doppleganger.

Sure, but that leaves you with a really awkward 50ss list with a bunch of support models that die to a breeze.

Updated the lists.

Updated lists.

Updated lists