SW_Neverborn04

I've always seen it as actions causing actions vs abilities. Last game I had a warpig with 11wounds on it talking damage from its attack trigger (Rams Stampede)before my Young's blood kicked in, so I did not get the kill. I don't remember the page for that in the rulebook on what comes first, but, with Nekima and the growing, we've always treated it as even though her black blood may kill a model, she did not land the killing blow, so no immediate tot to young growth. It's an outside effect of, her ability, and as it's a specific ability (black blood) it should not count for growing to a young. Black Blood is not a kill. It's a defensive ability/deterrent. The shaman casting pustule or even having a tot attack yourself as it's low damage and you can get a new tot while Nekima while heal the 1 dmg you put on her next activation, or your opponent hitting you is not nekima actually doing damage. the wording can be interpreted as her getting the kill, but I think the above shows that she can't make a tot and grow to young on that upgrade less you flip cards after Born of Blood where you kill an enemy It's like the McMourning poison debate with Sebastian. The good doctor's skills do damage in expunge, however given the wording, one can use armour or SS to lessen it. Not going into specifics, but Sebastian does amplify poison, and from the errata, poison which kills, does not go to the crew which put on the poison. The model simply dies and no crew gets the benefits. It's an ability, and same can be said to reason how Nekima can't just grow a young

Graves and Tannen work well with Lilith, especially Graves, but they are not to be used with a grow list. To use a grow list, at least for me, is very specific. You would have to have the right mix of strategy and schemes, although if it is a story encounter where you can pick schemes (page 77 rulebook under choose and reveal schemes), all the better. It's best done when your opponent has to come to you. In a 50 SS game, as a generic grow list, I'd Have: Lilith: Beckon Malifaux +1ss Wicked Mistress +1ss 3 tots: 12ss 2 young: 12 ss Nekima with True Mother: 15 ss BB Shaman: 7 ss That's 48 points, 49 if you want to give Lilith Rapid Growth, or 50 if you take primordial magic as drawing up to 8 cards (P.Magic and Lilith's Rush of magic), even if you have to discard 2, helps to stack your hand The above list gives you versatility in what you want to do. Don't forget about Lilith's speed and her manipulations. Most enemies see her as a melee master/damage dealer and that's it, but if you use her tricks, she is much more than that, and it tends to surprise them. Last game I had was a 60ss Treasure hunt strategy against Ulix who wanted to play test a bunch of things. In that game, Lilith herself used wicked mistress upgrade to pull 2 rooster riders off a ledge to their deaths for falling damage (HT 6-Ht 0 ='s pain), took out one bayou bushwacker in melee, Tangle shadowed P. magic so it could use it's " I'm a scheme Marker" rule and get me 3VP for plant explosives, then high tailed it to my enemies deployment zone for a full 3VP announced entourage scheme. In essence, she took out almost 1/3rd of models in initial hiring costs and gave me 6VP. Not bad for a model built for melee though was only engaged with one enemy over 5 turns. There is a reason why she is the first neverborn (2nd edition fluff), she works well with everything, though better with Nephilim and Swampfiends. Lilith also makes you look at terrain in a different light, and that is very important, and that is something you need to keep in mind for a grow list

Verdeloth, we all know Malifaux isn't a game strictly based on list building like 40k or Hordes. Given strategies, scheme's and terrain, effects the hiring, but in general, I tend to take 3-5 tots, and a minimum of 2 Young. I even opt out of Matures with what is drawn, A shaman is great for 7ss just for the healing, and when I do hire young/mature , I use them to screen or just run them in to serve as a distraction to kill enemy AP. I always have done this in 1.5 and 2nd. Tots have always been great objective runners, and from my group, we normally play 3 people, though 4 comes into play from now and then. If you want, or if this thread wants, I can post the statistics for Lilith and the main branch of nephilim (tots, young, and Mature) from 1.5 and 2nd edition as I keep complete stats. It would give a good comparison from 1.5 to 2nd edition. To go back to the initial request, the above is right. Lilith is a manipulator. In fact, in 2nd edition she should be using this more than going to kill. She is versatile. Unlike other Masters who have a certain area/time to active, Lilith can activate whenever (at the start of turn, middle, or end) and still get the job done. As the above have stated: she has speed, and board control, you just need to keep her away from blasts and those who can target her WP Remember, Malifaux is not strictly about killing as other tabletop games are. Lilith is an easy master to get into, but hard to master

I've been playing Lilith since 2011. 1.5 was great for growing, however I'm not a fan of it now. In a 50 point list, you'll be taking Nekima and her uprgrade for 15ss, a BB shaman at 7 points and at least 1 point for the upgrade of rapid growth if you put it on Lilith which brings it to a total of 23 minimum, more if you put it on something like the Mature, and that's not even mentioning the tots or young you'll be hiring. Tots are great, and should only be grown if you need more blitzers as that's what the Young are for. In any event, that's too many points to invest for 50ss as others like Somer can spend 9points on 3 gremlins + 2points for family tree upgrade and double up on gremlins first turn by dropping a low mask and using 'Do it Like Dis'. For larger games a grow list is great, but as you like to stick to Nephilim, consider taking Tuco at 7ss, giving him the Obsidian Talons upgrade, as he shouldn't die, which brings him to 8ss and run him with a doppelganger at another 7ss. It fits into your theme of Nephilim as Tuco is a nephilim and a doppelganger can change its skin to look like whatever. A potential 5 shots (2 from Tuco, and 3 from the doppelganger if you can get the perfect blend trigger) with potential blasts can surprise your opponent given how Neverborn as a whole don't have that many ranged attacks. Those 2 running together equal the price of Nekima and her upgrade and work much better, at least in my experience

That's what our group thought. Now to put the issue to bed, as we do have a couple of power gamers, A model with flight on ht 3, that is height 3 which can therfore see onto the next level which is height 5 or 6 (so it has LoS as technically on ht 3 and being ht 3 ='s 6), the ht for movement would still add a 2 or 3, right (elevation rules manual page 41)? i.e a model with flight and height 3 with a charge of 8 would essentially add 3 to whatever the distance is on a charge, basically meaning that a model 2inches away from the elevation would add either a 2 or 3 to get the charge up the elevation (i.e a charge of 8 would be 4-6 to get up the elevation than it gets the rest of their charge movement then if in engagment range make their attacks?) considering the target is not on the edge of the elevation for Vantage Point as that is self explanitory. It's not the going down (Vantage points, Flight not taking damage from a drop, etc) or the flying over terrain while on the same level, it's the going up which is the contention

Hello. I'm sure that this has been broughten up before, but now that second wave is live, and we have all our characters back, I figured I'd ask this question before any of our gaming group came into this issue for clarification. Back in first edition, vertical movement with regards to flight was not restricted, it was treated the same as horizontal. We've been treating it as such the same in 2nd edition, however vertical movement in the rulebook only states climbable terrain wheras flight ignores terrain therefor top down position should be fair enough. I have just gone through the terrain and the errata and I could not find it, though I may have missed something as it was a quick scan, but how would this effect models with flight in a non-enclosed space? We do know that incoporeal can go through walls with heigth (from the errata: Although measurements in Malifaux are generally made from a top down view, vertical distances are measured while moving a model (see pg. 42 of the rulebook, Movement & Terrain) If the model with Incorporeal ends its move on top of the 10" tall building, it would have moved 10" and, unless it has a Wk of 10 or greater, this is not a legal move. However, if the Incorporeal model has a sufficient Wk stat to complete the move, it would be able to end the move on top of the terrain, ignoring the usual rules for climbing, etc. Flight works similarly, except in the case of Enclosed terrain Now lets say a model with flight goes from open ground to a Ht 9. There should be no penalties on that movement, right? Just treated as the models movement or add 9inches to its move? We just want to be sure as the board we normally play on is multilevel with each level starting from 0 and each after that ht3. By the way, here is the normal board we play on if it helps the question. We randomize doors and brick walls each game with dice

Mach_5 is right. Sometimes the wording makes no logical sense. This is where you'd want to make some house rules given the terrain features. In the case of Lilith, with her ignore LoS and terrain, where she can actually attack through walls, you could allow her to do so, but at the same time, since she can see through walls and terrain, and is a living model, still make her suceptible to terryfying or other effects (like need to pass a WP greater duel to make her strike) which terrain could or would block on standard models as she can see through the terrain

Formatting aside, all this was meant for was a community interpertation on such a random event to bring in rule judgment. For those who are not put off from formatting, anything to add, validate, or bring up, for this, or any other weird chain for the community no matter how hypothetical it may be?

Spaghetti Western aside, for such a low SS game, you may not want to use Tuco. Nephilim are fast, and ignore most terrain features. IN a higher game, I would go with a Shaman, but for 20-25, i'd stick with tots, young and mature. I had a 3 player game the other day, at 35ss, grew 1 tot, and 1 young which killed 2 warpigs in 2 roudsa (crazy odds, should have gone to vegas that night). Healing shouldn't be an issue if you use placement and Lilith right(always bring a battle buddy with her such as a young, mature, Nekima, or lelu). I do favour the cherub over primodiral though as it gives the option to transposition Lilith (if you have the cards) or use it to cast illusionary forest as Lilith and Nephilim crew tend to have board control with their ignore LoS and terrain while charging, forest, and earthquake. The merc killing for blood counters is a good idea, tho tots are formidable on their own. Basicaly, it comes down to the strategy you have, but you'd be wasting your first turn, and the 1st cpl of turns, in my experience anyway, are all about set up.

As it should from the manual, but some may claim that Slow to die can't activate during a slow to die action with the fallback and the wicked

Thanks Mach_5. Was what we thought, in the group hypothetical, as we are casual gamers, but we all know those who are hardcore rule nazis and will twist any word to their advantage. Best we know ahead of time, and have a post from the community to call on it XD

okay, Mach_5, if that's the case, and Colette is reduced to 0, would that allow her another slow to die action before Lilith takes her next fast/genral Ap action? Granted this has never happened to anyone in game, just a hypothetical?

I can see that point psychocamel, but, damage dealt and prevention still doesn't allow for reducing to a negative. If I'm missing something in this hypothetical (which may be true) and this were to happen, and she fell to another 0 wounds during her slow to die activation, would that not make a new slow to die action in which she could heal at the cost of another soulstone?