Malovane

Without seeing the stats off all the M3E models, its a bit hard to evaluate the overall impact of the RJ change.  Depending on the average health values and the damage ranges of models in M3E, the RJ change might be fine.  In a vacuum, severe+1 is underwhelming, but if the typical severe damage has gone up and/or average health has been reduced, the net result would be something of a wash.  Changing to +1 over +weak serves to normalize the red joker's impact across models.  It also removes that extreme swing the RJ had on models with high weak damage, which potentially opens up the design space a bit.

2 hours ago, yool1981 said:

I respectfully disagree.

I consider having "entered" Malifaux when:

• I can play at the intended balance format (50SS)
• I can play all the strats and schemes with my collections without feeling at a disadvantage due to a lack of options
• I can handle the most annoying skews for a beginner (summoners & blasters)

Prior to that, I consider it is a try out, not an entry.

The second you start talking about not being at a disadvantage, you are fundamentally talking about the cost to be competitive.  Getting into the very concept of skews goes even further, requiring some r&d to even determine what are the common skews and how to tech against them.  You have absolutely gone well beyond the point of entry.  Even the act of learning what models fit what roles is something that comes with experience or research, which again falls beyond the idea of "getting started" with Malifaux.  The entry point to malifaux can absolutely be crew box vs crew box.  It won't be the most balanced experience in all cases, but its enough to get a taste for the rules and systems of the game.

2 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

I think that assuming the lack of support for Masters in Dead Man's Hand is a safer bet than expecting entire new books dedicated to their return. That would remove the whole point of Dead Man's Hand entirely.

The point of the Dead Man's Hand, as far as we've been informed is to provide rules for models that are no longer currently active in the fiction.  It isn't to remove them from the universe entirely.  To me it feels like a blatant setup for a later release/return.

3 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

It would be nice to be able to at least have these models recognized as official proxies. Lilith as a beckoners, Collodi and marionettes as Coppelius and Alps/daydreams and so on.

Sure, I can see this for official "lore" tournament purpose.  However, these models will all still have rules as themselves, so it would then create a point of confusion in tournaments that are allowing "dead man's hand" models.  In casual games, we can proxy to our heart's content.

9 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

I would just prefer to be able to have an official use for models that I purchased and painted that's not relegated to a different format.

I would love to have an official use in M3E for all the avatars I own, but sadly that doesn't appear to be the case.  I can still maintain hope and keep a positive outlook.  In the meantime, they still look great and can serve as casual proxies.

12 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

The problem isn't the fact that some tournaments might allow them or that you can play with friends, the real issue is that when new books/models come out or game decisions are being made, the Masters in this sub-category are not going to be given the same weight, if any is given to them at all.

This is rather blind speculation.  There could be books/models that are entirely focused on the return of Lilith or Nicodem.  Collodi could return with an entire new faction in tow for all we know.  Since the Ten Thunders are no longer comprised entirely of multi-faction masters, the stage is rather set for a new faction to be introduced in the same manner.

23 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

I, for once, feel a little hurt after trading sleeping hours  and money across 3 jobs to purchase and paint models that already  had an undisclosed expiration date.

Unexpected expirations are always disheartening, but there are really few things purchased these days that don't end up expiring eventually.  Besides, the only models we know are truly expiring are the avatars.  The rest will at least still have rules.

2 minutes ago, emiba said:

No, I think they're different dimensions. Earlier in the thread someone voiced concern over there not being sleeves for this size and Mason (I think?) said that the first thing they checked was to make sure there were sleeves available.

Ouch.  I hope that's not the case.  I would rather have the character art cropped down or diminished in size to maintain a standard card size.  Storage, transport, and sleeving is so much easier with a standard size card.  Although, it might not matter as much if there is a digital card app for M3E.

2 minutes ago, Clement said:

They used the exact same language when they went from 1st to 2nd edition.  Go back and look at how hilariously, pointlessly complicated some of those models were compared to their 2nd edition versions.  Back then there were also people lamenting that simplification is inherently bad, some very loudly.

Not saying it's not right to have concerns, but it's likely better to wait and see before letting the panic set in.  At least looking at Rasputina's new card (admitedly only half of one card) it still looks like there will be plenty of choices to make.

Even  more so given that upgrades are apparently still a thing.

5 minutes ago, Passenty said:

If big tournamnets will play restricted format no one will want to play unrestricted on the small ones

Since we have yet to see any rules docs, I find this to be a large assumption.  Most large cons typically have multiple tournament formats running within the more popular games.  There are already multiple formats in M2E that get use.  Warmahordes has multiple types of formats/leagues that get run on small/large scale.  I generally do not understand this fear.

2 minutes ago, EK A&G said:

Yeah, i mentioned that too, would be sorta cool. I dont mind triple-faction or 4-faction masters, doesnt really matter, but the "option removal" concerns me.

Given the apparent focus on thematic crews, I'm not overly concerned.  The core identity of the masters appears to be intact from the snippets of info we've received.  Generally holding off any concerns until I see actual rules.  Probably helps that I own models from every faction.

3 minutes ago, Passenty said:

I think its a little bit insulting to customers like myself - I own almost whole nvb fraction+most of merc, what I'am to do with all the stuff I bought, 3 masters cut out of fraction, merc gone. And really if the deleted masters are to be competetive why put dead man's hand restriction on tournament play - the restriction should be only on world wide campaign which change fluff not normal tournament circuit.

Given that we have not seen official M3E tournament rules yet, the restriction might very well be to world campaign and major events only.  If everything is tournament balanced, I wouldn't be surprised if the recommendation for local events was an "unrestricted" format.  If I was a TO, I would run unrestricted locally regardless.  Even at larger events, I wouldn't be surprised to see both formats running.

2 minutes ago, EK A&G said:

So it was confirmed that some of the masters are in the Dead Man's Hand list and wont be usable for a while, but will be back. Okay, what about dual-faction masters, are they getting back into their "second" factions or not? Like, say, Brewmaster - is he getting back into Ten Thunders and etc etc?

I get the impression faction affiliations will become more fluid and change over time.  Particularly now that its the Bayou faction and not Gremlins, make me think more non-gremlins will show up.  Like maybe Marcus ditches the Arcanists entirely and goes Neverborn/Bayou.  Feels like the narrative has opened up a bit in this regard.

2 minutes ago, Zalabar said:

The cultural pressures of tourney play, new shiny models, new rule support, and comparative ease of pick up games grind out the older version every time. These games are not RPGs, where the competitive players are counteracted by the difficulty in picking up a new system, and there's not a terribly functional concept for competitive play, and pick up games aren't really a thing. You noted Necromunda, which is a really good counter example. I am curious how many people play Chainmail. Or more pertinently, Warhammer 40k 6th ed. Or Squats.

To place the onus on someone to compete against a newer edition of the same game because they're frustrated by a surprise sunset on their purchase is not cool. Please stop that one.

By no means do I expect it to be commonplace to continue playing old versions of miniature games within the public view.  I certainly wouldn't go to a brick/mortar store looking to play an old edition.  However, within small groups/circles of friends, I find playing old editions of board games, rpgs, and miniatures to be rather common.  Particularly if you own multiple factions of models, it can be just as easy to break out an old version of Warhammer/40k as it is to break out a board game, more so if the other players are familiar with the rules of course.  Even with the initial release of AoS, WFB continued to have a loyal following, until GW wised up and added structure to the AoS army creation.  WFB is popular enough that its basically just become fan supported as the 9th age, and it apparently has tournaments running at Adepticon and such.

Ultimately, the onus is always on the buyer to make use of the purchase.  The onus is on me to paint/play with my purchase regardless of how popular it is or if its already been made obsolete by a newer version.  I have a few avatars that never hit the table, but that's hardly on Wyrd for changing their implementation in M2E.  I had the opportunity in M1E and didn't take it.   I still have that option to make use of them and I don't take it.  Now that I hear they won't even have rules initially in M3E, its even more on me.  The option to make use of the purchase is ever present, albeit in some cases it can potentially be more challenging.  Models could even be used in different games or settings than their original intent.  Ultimately, I'm just pointing out the options and trying to temper the expected frustrations of an edition change.

1 minute ago, Kyris said:

Honestly, given the scale of what they're trying to do I could easily see testing going on for a year or more.

Gencon 2019 would be my earliest guess.

Just now, LunarSol said:

The transformation mechanic is so cool in theory, but I get the struggles with it.  I have kind of wondered if it could be done in a way where every Master avatar'd into the faction Emissary.  Not sure how exactly that would work though.

The mechanic/concept was cool, but very janky, while also extremely unbalanced.  I always wished they would have just been alternate versions of the character more akin to the versioning of warlocks/warcasters in Warmahordes.  If we can have masters "retire" why not have them undergo dramatic changes.

1 minute ago, Mason said:

There are currently no plans to carry Avatars forward into 3rd edition. That doesn't mean that it won't (or will) happen in the future, just that at the moment, we're focusing on getting the core rules and models updated and balanced.

Rather expected, good to know, but still sad to hear.

1 minute ago, Teluriel12 said:

I see a lot of maybes, absolutely not clear and so forth...If I wanted to gamble, I will play the lottery.

So I have to spend time, money and effort to painting a crew, where I will be at the whim of an individual whether I can play at a tournament?  Or do I now have to buy a backup crew + additional miniatures just to be sure that I can play at all.

The arguments that you bring forward really dont help at all.

The only uncertainty is #2, as we don't currently know the future of the character or even much about M3E.  #1 and #4 are absolutely certainties of use.  I'm not sure how you would even begin to prepare for tournament competition without engaging in casual/practice play, at the very least to learn the rules and such.  Regardless, lets assume you only ever play in tournaments.  #3 is still a conditional certainty.  You can improve that certainty by talking with the TO.  You can further make #3 an absolute certainty by organizing the tournament yourself.

Regardless, I see a lot of unfounded fear regarding your ability to make use of the purchase.  I understand the concern regarding tournament use, but your purchase is only a waste if you let it become one.  We don't even have a clear idea on the release window for M3E yet, so there is nothing stopping you from getting out and playing M2E now.  You absolutely have the ability to get value from your spent money and effort.

5 minutes ago, Kyris said:

Great in theory. never works that way in practice.

By no means am I saying use of the old version would be wide spread.  I recently broke out and played some old school Necromunda.  Certainly not a common occurrence given that the edition is out of print and unsupported.  Same goes for the older version of the Twilight Imperium board game.  I stand by my point that there is nothing fundamentally stopping anyone from using old editions other than their own willingness to put in the effort to get games together.

1 minute ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Also, I spent dozens of hours building and painting that Collodi crew in the belief that I will be having it as a valid option for a long time to come.

This is your own fault based on a faulty assumption.  Further, the crew can still be used for a long time to come, as it has already been stated that it will be getting M3E rules.  Even without M3E rules, the M2E and M1E rules for the crew still exist and are perfectly capable of being used.  Again, I will reiterate that how much use you get from your purchase is on you, not on Wyrd.

3 minutes ago, Teluriel12 said:

Please read my first post...i literally ordered a full collodi crew and additional miniatures two weeks ago...i had to save six months for those...please tell how Ive not wasted my money.

-its clear that wyrd will not put further models out for collodi

-i cant use him in tournaments (dead mans hand being a false argument)

 

I did read your post.
1.  You still have plenty of time to get value playing M2E.  Even after the release of M3E, it doesn't stop you from playing M2E.
2.  It is absolutely not clear that wyrd will not put out further models.  Collodi may get an update in the future.  There is also good probability that new models may be of use in his crew.
3.  He absolutely can be used in tournaments, at TO discretion.  This has already been stated.  You may not be able to use him in every tournament, but some use does not equate to no use.
4.  You can still use him in casual play.

Therefore, there is still the possibility to get value from your purchase.  It is entirely up to you.  The only way your purchase becomes a waste is if you never make use of it.

2 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I was not talking about GW. If you want a concrete example, take Guild Ball to name one. Their characters grow and die and get maimed and changed and so on and so forth. Yet they keep balancing the old versions as well as the new versions and all are allowed in tournaments no questions asked. You can't have two versions of the same character in the same team but that's about it for restrictions.

Guild ball is also a much smaller miniature line, which makes it far less cost prohibitive to continue supporting ever version of the character.

Just now, DocSchlock said:

Using fluff to justify wasting your players' money is a sure-fire way to shed goodwill. Most companies avoid that like the plague.

I really dislike this argument.  No money was wasted.  Old models/rules still exist and can still be used.  They had their time but are no longer supported.  Times and technology advance and the old eventually gets replaced.  I don't expect movies to be released on VHS anymore; the advent of dvd and blu-ray doesn't make prior money spent on VHS wasted.  They got their use and now we move on.  I don't expect old video game systems to continue being supported.  Money that I spent on those old generations was hardly wasted because a new generation came into existence.  CCGs and LCGs have cards that fall out of rotation or get restricted/banned.  Backwards compatibility is actually a rarity, all things considered.  I would argue that most companies actually embrace this cycle of decay and user turnover.  Planned obsolescence is an extremely common practice, that many industries actually thrive upon   It occurs in nearly ever entertainment medium that comes to mind.  Yet somehow, every time there is an edition change in a miniature's game this logical fallacy regarding money being wasted and purchases being invalidated surfaces.  

I don't expect anyone to like planned obsolescence, but I would hope it be understood if not accepted at this point.  I can fully understand and appreciate the frustrations and concerns of a new edition, but to say money was wasted is an over simplified exaggeration.  If you bought models/rules for M2E and never played a single game and never made use of the models, then I would agree money was wasted, but certainly not as a result of Wyrd's actions or the creation of M3E.  The fact that these "retired" masters are still getting M3E rules further invalidates the argument.  Its also been stated that they will be balanced for tournament play.  If the tournament is not narrative focused, I imagine most TOs will be fine with their use.  

1 minute ago, Kyris said:

except for the fact that using their dead man's hand method. they still do have to support all of those masters.

New cards/rules does not necessarily mean continued production of the models or box sets.  If the model isn't supported in tournaments/story, its unlikely that we'll see new sculpts and box sets for those masters, and we will instead only see rules updates.  Regardless, this is an rather large assumption on my part.  I generally just wanted to point out that sku bloat can become a real concern in terms of production and brick/mortar shelf space.

3 minutes ago, Kyris said:

false dilemma. You can advance the story and the game mechanics without risking pissing off or alienating players who main one of the masters that are now gone, or play a master in a faction that is no longer allowed. i don't see how doing that serves the player base at all.

Also. Don't ask questions and assume the answer just to further your own argument. I would absolutely still play malifaux without the lore. The lore is frankly the thing I care the least about. I play Malifaux because its fun, and different enough from other war games that I can play it, and 40K, and other war games without it feeling too much like the same thing.

To each their own.  I find the advancing story fascinating and additive to the experience.  It reminds me a lot of the L5R ccg where characters would grow and change and even die.  Tournaments and events would dictate the progression of the narrative and influenced the game mechanics.  I most certainly wouldn't have started playing Malifaux if it wasn't for the lore and aesthetic.  The only thing that really kept me interested in M2E was the lore, as I found the gameplay less enjoyable.

Any change is bound to alienate someone.  Ultimately, wyrd's goal as a business is to move more product.  Removing some masters and adding new ones is just one method to encourage continued sales, while also limiting the amount the number of product skus they need to support.

1 minute ago, Lalochezia said:

Then clearly the story enhances the game. The game is at its best when the mechanics, aesthetics, and story are all flowing together, influencing each other. It is a game first, sure, but story is *part* of that game.

One of the saddest losses for me in terms of story vs game mechanics was the M1E avatars.  Such a great narrative concept that struggled and failed to find an effective gameplay implementation.

11 minutes ago, Mason said:

M3E still has Upgrades, though we're dialing them back somewhat from where M2E is.

Glad to hear it is being dialed back at least.  There was a lot of dead bloat in those upgrades.  It often felt like they were variance for the sake of variance rather than theme or improving gameplay mechanics.  I would prefer to see them only when thematically appropriate like Yan Lo's reliquary and Jack Daw's curses.  Regardless, you've got my attention.

Love to hear that the storyline is progressing.  Hopefully that 3rd ed will bring me back in.  With streamlining and reducing rules bloat, are upgrade cards going away?  They were by far my most hated part of 2nd ed.  Also wish the avatar models from 1st ed would get rules as alternate versions of the masters, same way the "dead" masters will still be getting rules.