PierceSternum

I am SO wearing an ascot when I play malifaux from now on!

I think something Pierce was getting at is that the new VP scoring mechanisms add complexity to the overall game -- so it's not that M2E has just hit the easy button, despite having simpler cards.

That is exactly what I meant and obviously was not clear about. Thanks.

I also failed to even mention the complexity that various upgrade combinations will bring.

I mention them as a point of complexity, not as a "negative" per se. (I do not count complexity as a negative)

I am not sure what to think about that whole system yet. I feel like right now, with the current options, they do not feel as awesome as I feel like they should when someone describes to me "an upgrade system that really lets you customize your crew".

As a single sentence blurb, that sounds more exciting to me than what I perceive the reality of the current set of upgrades to be.

But, I do not want to rat-hole on that point because I do not have suggestions for how I think upgrades would specifically be better, so I recognize that I am making an unfair characterization.

Pierce: it's not aimed at you, or in fact at any one specific post in this thread (consider it an accumulation of comments in here, and elsewhere), so don't be insulted. I found your comment that I specifically referred to quite insightful.

I simply wished to express my frustration and puzzlement that there's been a fair bit of posting on the forum of late (on both sides of the argument) that seemingly refuses to accept that it's all personal preference, and one game is not outright superior except in the eyes of each individual.

If it reads as bitter, then that's accidental. I am not bitter, and am not picking out any one person or small group of people. I'm all for people making their own decision, I thought I'd said that clearly, but I guess not. This new edition works well for me, and for a number of other players I know, but it won't be for everyone. I just wish people would stop trying to score points for their side of the argument. There's a lot of stuff in here that pretty much reads as veiled mockery or insult, which is what I was questioning.

Cool.

And I agree that it seems pretty difficult for some people to distinguish preference from fact and struggle with the preference of others. (On both sides)

I do get my hackles up at the notion that either version is particularly more complex than the other.

They are different. I think that is the only "true" thing that is fact. For each comment I see about the number of lines on the old cards, I really wonder how that will translate once the newer VP scoring mechanisms have been truly understood and we have the OTHER 67% of the models released.

Be that as it may, if I thought M2E was BAD, I wonder if I would be as... Mellow... as I am.

But the thing is, its not. Its just that each version makes me want parts of the other and its a struggle.

I was going to stay out of this, but it amazes me how many of the people that don't like M2E are determined to insult those that do, or claim that they actually mean they want 1.75 but are somehow unable to express it. Or the other favourite, insult the designers personally.

...

But please stop telling people that like M2E (or, for that matter, 1.5) that they're wrong and/or stupid. It doesn't help your argument.

Well, you are "in" it now, so I have to ask who you are talking to.

I cannot tell if you are referring to me as having "insulted the designers personally". I am the only person that I saw that "named" any of them, at least over the last couple days, so I assume you mean me. And if so... I fail to see the insult.

I do not know who you are saying that is calling people wrong and stupid either.

It doesn't overly matter I suppose as it does not change anyone's opinion of the games, but I am trying to see where this thread derailed into bitterness and to a degree in my eyes, its sort of in your post.

Its helpful if you either quote who you are replying to, or at least put their name.

Just wondering why quitting is a better option over playing "Against all odds still play Malifaux 1.5" as the poll has it?

Speaking only for myself, but what I would say is that M2E, for me, really helped crystalize not only what I LIKED in M1E by virtue of some things being gone, BUT ALSO what I DISLIKED about M1E by virtue of getting it fixed in M2E.

So, while I like 10T and mercs being the only cross-faction things in M1E, now that I am used to new soulstones and pre-measure, it is pretty tough to deal with their loss.

So for me, its a little bit more like feeling a game of either can be frustrating because I feel the loss of the things that the other version has that I want.

And I do not want to feel frustrated when I play. M2E really shined a spotlight on M1E's problems to me. Thats the problem as I feel it.

I bet most would just say they wanted a better version of 1.5 with some minor tweaks for balance.

That is exactly where I am at. I really like some of the changes made to the rules for M2E like pre-measure, soulstones and red joker.

But, I came to dislike the complete rewrite of every model in the game.

I would rather:

1. Apply those core rules changes I like in M2E to M1E.

2. Clear up wording of the rules

3. schemes were given the attention that the last Gaining Grounds gave to strategies rather than the new way and balanced.

4. OUTLIER MODELS were fixed on the ends of the spectrum of good and bad. (Malifaux Child-Ice Golem vs. Pandora-Tuco)

5. Models not on the far ends of the curve were just given some cost-adjustment attention.

I think those 5 steps could have allowed for us to make a better game than M2E or M1E and I also believe that the entire system and line of models could have been tested and brought into alignment in the same amount of time it took to do just this first wave and I think we would have hit the mark closer than has been done.

There is literally YEARS of thoughts and feedback in these forums addressing every model in the line made by many of the absolute best players in the game in terms of consistent tournament results.

But rather than use that or, as far as I can tell, many of the people that made Book 4, which I still maintain is the best and most complete book in the line, much of the direction and development seemed run by the same person brought in to develop the RPG and the person in charge of Henchman. (But at least Justin had years of Malifaux experience)

Now all things considered, I think they did a very good job. But, I am not grading on a curve with my money and hobby time.

An improved M1E could be the best game on the planet and I am saddened that there was a choice not to do that.

So, I am still torn. There is so much I prefer in M1E. But there is also things I think that I do not want to lose from M2E...

Its not like I am going to sell my models. I think M2E is ok. I just had higher expectations, I guess.

I guess a lot of forum regulars, especially those in the UK, didn't like the direction Malifaux was going or felt that their playtest input wasn't being given the weight they felt it deserved, so they made a lot of noise (or at least walls of scathing text) and then left.

I was aware of lots of noise from some UK about the state of the game and what was not being addressed for already released models, but had heard nothing about book 4.

In fact, some of the larger flameouts seemed prior to release in my recollection...

But I dunno.

What debacle for book 4?

---------- Post added at 05:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:13 AM ----------

Striker, it remains to be seen whether there will be a v1 community yet.

Also, v2 is not released yet so it might be worth seeing what happens on both fronts before abandoning the game.

I wish there was an "I don't know yet" option.

There are things I like in 2.0, but honestly, 25-30SS games are my favorite, and I really like team games and I feel like 2.0 has largely missed the boat on both fronts there.

So, we'll see.

I suspect that many of the non-2.0 folks will not have seen this post anyway, so who knows what the results may mean.

I also have specific suspicions about the perceived state of balance in v2 that I'd rather not get into.

I've seen whats happened and been said to others for thoughts similar to mine and I have no interest in turning my occasional hobby into a point of aggravation.

I will say this...

If the right people took up v1 and implements some of the sought after changes that sat in the forums for years and certain key people came back and Wyrd gave it a smidge of support, I'd likely remain a customer for years to come.

As it stands... We'll see.

Models are friendly to themselves and he is within 3 inches of himself and he is undead, so yes, he moves too.

But I agree its not super obvious at a glance. You just have to check all the conditions and look out for words like "other"...

I like the Carrion Effigy.

His card is kind of poop, but the model is amongst my favorite.

Play Skill + Model Knowledge > "Model Balance".

But skill and understanding being equal, there are a few things that are better and a few things that are worse than the average.

It happens.

Personally, I care slightly less about balance than I do unfun playing experiences.

I do not tie winning and fun together and do not mind losing...

But I dislike not having fun while losing.

If LadyJ and her crew break through and murder me, I can still have fun. When Pandora and her crew lock me down and I cannot target anything and just get pinged to death. I do NOT have fun.

I'm of the opinion that if something is made by guys, for guys. Who the hell cares what women think.

What an odd thought... Maybe not odd so much as... Ancient?

Anyway...

I guess my actual opinion is that it feels sort of sexist to assume that "women" would find the models in this game "sexist".

Who anointed anyone here Lord Protector of Women?

Can women not say what they like or not? And choose to buy or not?

Whats wrong with being sexy?

(already done? did I miss it? I cannot miss a Spinal Tap reference)

Nicodem with Grave Spirit along with Molly and her Totem...

Molly Whispered Secret the Rigor from Nico and her Totem can then stone cast it. GS can stone cast it and Nico regular cast and Molly gets a one time cast before having to re-get it.

I never stated I wasn't going to use him ever again.I want him to be playable. He is my favorite master but I don't throw games because of "rule of cool"unless I am trying intentionally to make people laugh.

Holy cats... I cannot tell if you are a massive troll that enjoys saying silly things or are just insane.

You made a thread asking people how they win with Hamelin post-errata and people TOLD you how they were...

Then you basically said "No, I have it all worked out in my enormous brain and everyone else is wrong."

I am glad that a friend explained to me how to setup an ignore list on the forum because whether you are trolling or just a jerk, I do not want to get baited by your posts ever again.

Have fun building whatever sort of "power-gamer-push-button-win" list that you can get OTHER PEOPLE to build for you. With such an enormous brain, I am surprised you need help. Why not just have it run simulations for all possible model, terrain and card combinations that are possible to always know the best play?

Good bye.

He designed his own original card.

odd post...

I think the model is very nice.

Seamus Boxset is best starting value for the $$ in rezzers, IMO.

And he is fun to play and you will use the belles OFTEN, even with other masters.

I've tabled a fair few Resser players in my day, and more than once via a RJ on a negative twist - But they all fail to realize that I've been cycling my RJ through the deck the whole game rather than hold it, and that if they weren't HTW they only would have been tabled sooner. I don't divulge this after the game as it would seem unsporting - but if all this whining continues I may have to start the Enlightenment

been "cycled" against many times... realized it every time... when you play rezzers, you take H2W.

But whatever...

What a very strange weekend.

Why did england quit Malifaux?

Wait...

nm...

What lists are you bringing to GenCon and how do you expect to do?

Huh? Page 23 Black Joker section.

Edit:

Ok, I think I know where your confusion comes from.

If you pull both Red and Black Joker on the damage flip, you get no damage as Black Joker always wins (page 23).

However if you pull Red Joker, and then on the second damage flip you get the Black one, then only the second damage flip is reduced to 0. The first damage flip remains on severe and is still applied. This is what page 45 rules on Jokers in Damage Flips say.

That seems... Different... than what I have seen, but I can see the wording there.

but Black always beats Red.

Nope. not damage.

Could we also say that armor ratings count as that many extra damage to the target instead of reduction when a red joker is flipped to give them a liability? We could say that the armor ruptured and widened the wound... Stuff happens. Small chance, right? So no problem. Keeps the game exciting with that random stuff...

Is it really often? The chance of flipping an extra weak card is far higher than flipping the red joker.

Someone on a flip because they barely hit you.

They are flipping 2 cards, chances are decent they might get a weak.

You are hard to wound 2 (And your model's cost is reflective of that "benefit") and now you are far more likely to get the same weak...

But also 3 times more likely to flip a red joker.

I could almost see if it were the case that Red Joker only did severe, but when on a NEGATIVE flip, it just seems nuts that on top of everything else that they get an additional card flip of damage.

Again, this isn't about that small chance that you hit when you were not supposed to, or that you did more damage than you were likely too. Its suddenly likely killing a model that did everything possible in the game to be in the better position, which seems very strange.

I'd be ok with it, I guess, if you simply lost the extra card of damage when you are on a negative flip.

There is little reason you ever want someone flipping 4 cards the way it is now. Three cards is very likely to net you the weak that you want, so Hard to Wound 2 becomes a liability when most attacks already fall in the 1-5 area.

What are the defensive liabilities associated with high defense stats that actually help avoid getting hit? With Armor?