PierceSternum

What I find funny is that eric has imply said they want to understand what others using the IP could mean and they want to be careful about it to protect their interests.

Its NON-wyrd employees on the prowl against classic that have caused the arguments.

How about you let them decide for themselves?

You just did it. By implying that we'd be happier if people would just shut up about how they hate M2E. I completely disagree. It's constructive disagreement that makes the game better.

What it's actually turning into is; M2E people are mean.....and we M1.5 people are all angels. It's the highest form of hypocrisy.

I really don't know why I'm even here.....the hypocrisy pulled me in. I'm deleting my subscription to this thread. So done.

For starters. Glad you are going away.

Second, I like plenty of aspects of M2E so do not try to pigeonhole me.

I think classic could benefit from several M2E changes and would not say the reverse as so many seem happy with M2E as it is.

I've also noticed a trend of the 'Classic lovers' to take any form of disagreement as: "he's yelling at me", he's bullying me"........most responses to the 'classic lovers' has been......so go play it.....just don't expect everyone else to play it with you.

I do not think the classic folks are saying anything of the sort.

To my eye some of the more zealous of the M2E supporte rs have taken it upon heir own shoulders to become protectors of wyrd IP and have actively campaigned against those who are no longer trying to say what M2E should be but rather what they would like to do to M1E instead.

I would think that would be something that would make some of you HAPPY to get rid of the critics of M2E.

Instead itsstill just a ****ing contest.

I think that the desire and dirextion of classic looks very cool.

I di not interpret eric's response in the same way as nix seemed to and hope that with further reflection that all involved can come to an understanding of how both wyrd and any sort of classic community could benefit.

In other words I hope this is a bump in the road rather than an ending.

And I also hope that personal feelings can be set aside to get a better perspective SOON so that we can continue the conversation.

And would you say the customers are worse off for pathfinder?

In this case wyrd is being offered opportunity to support AND BE SUPPORTED BYthe classic community.

Lol.

Could never happen.

But if it did M2E would be tarnished.

Just lol.

Why is this anyone's concern other than wyrd and the classic folks?

Do you have so little faith in our new version that something that "could never work" is somehow a threat.

Play the game you want and keep advocating things you would like to see fixed and changed andd let the classic folks do the same.

Please do not feel obligated to care about classic.

Ok guys I've solved it!

If you don't like M2E play 1.5 with your friends.

Whew. That was tough.

I have a better idea. Ignore this and other threads that are not about the version you want support for.

Is it competition if everyone is buying Wyrd models?

If M2E is better and more popular people will buy it.

If some fan supported version is more popular it will still sell Wyrd models and hopefully even keep people involved that might not stay.

Is it competition to M2E? I guess possibly.

Is it competition to Wyrd? No. They get money either way if their models are supported in both versions.

Shameless plug for a blog post about this on my blog; blog.mythicfox.com

All I sort of got from your post was "You don't think it will work".

Isn't that sort of like simply betting on the favorite?

A company doesn't want you using their hard work for a project in direct competition with theirs.

Is that effort competition?

They seem to be encouraging people to purchase Wyrd products. Is money from a M1E player less valuable than an M2E players?

If I ever decided that M2E was not something I want to play anymore, I think it would be very cool to have the "fixed" version of M1E that I sort of wanted M2E to be.

In reading the email chain, though, I sort of got the same vibe as Rathnard. The conclusion reached seems not necessarily in alignment with what Eric was saying.

He said there would be something about their IP posted in a couple weeks. I am interested in seeing what that is and if it turns out to be something workable and Nix has a change of heart, I think that the people feeling disenfranchised at the moment would remain customers.

As it is, I think people are leaving. I expect that M2E will find a new generation of gamers. But something like that effort keeping older players involved feels like having your cake and eating it too.

I see.

Since I mentioned the changing of the designers, I assume you mean my post.

I am interested in understanding why you assume I am laying "blame" at someone's feet.

So, whatever you seem to feel you are defending... Ok. That's cool.

I bring up the fact that the people running the development effort of M2E did not run the prior development of any of the books. All I need do is read the credits to know that.

I brought up the trust factor simply because it was easy to see the development and maturity of the prior leads up to and culminating in book 4 and to therefore have amazingly high expectations for M2E.

There was this notion that we could just trust this "entity" called Wyrd, when, in fact, its a collection of people. And the people that I feel have earned that level of trust, if still involved at all, are certainly being kept at arms length from any interactions with us at best, and at worst, have had little or no say or input into what has happened.

So, to assume that the years of problem solving that are buried in the forums are known about and have been taken into account is not true, IMO.

Now...

That also does not mean that the "new guys" are not capable of creating a great game.

Its early and open beta was a great idea, IMO.

But, I am also careful about using years of trust built with the "old guard" to say that I just know this will work out because I feel like we have truly started over.

If I were really interested in "blaming" the owners of Wyrd for anything, I'd be far more inclined to ask why I just paid $45 for a Hoffman avatar whose rules you intend to make go away in a few months...

ramos, mcmourning, vikis, ladyj, etc... They all look like extras from "<fill-in-the-blank-cyberpunk-post-apocolypse-movie-X>" to me.

(I'd have to go relook at all the crews again, but I think those stuck out at me)

I must admit to getting irritated at the continued assertion that some relevant quantity of dislike for M2E is attributable to people disliking change itself.

Its a cop out.

I could just as easily start saying that M2E lovers are accepting of its many flaws simply because of the things it happened to fix, but are unwilling to admit to the flaws because this is a "war" dang it, and admitting to anything is weakness.

Is M2E better than M1E? I do not know.

One thing that I TRULY believe, is that in three months time, M1E could have been fixed to be better than EITHER of what we have now.

home-rolled won't cut it at a tourney.

I hope you are right or its...

Student of Viscera seems kind of cool, but I would not buy the box just for 1 out of 4 models, so this is not something I am interested in. Bummer.

And I agree that no M1E rules feels like a real kick in the teeth. Poor Molly.

When people keep saying "Wyrd is doing this" and "Wyrd is doing that"... It seems odd to me.

I can read all my books and credits pretty easily.

What there is are the people that wrote books 1 and 2. And that wrote 3 and 4.

Now there is the people writing M2E that are NOT the people that wrote the prior stuff.

Its like a sequel movie with new writers, actors and director that have their own perspectives.

The question is, will we get "Empire Strikes Back" or "Indiana Jones 4"?

I think there are some older models I like a lot more than the new plastic versions, but I also think that some of the newer plastics are great.

The 10T stuff, aside from burt jebsen being so tiny compared to what I thought he would be like was almost universally great.

The Yan Lo crew in fantastic. I also quite like the Misaki and McCabe crews.

Heck, Lynch and crew are cool too, except maybe Hungering Darkness being a bit... sort of mushy.

I do not like the new mad-max thunderdome look of many of the remakes though. There is a "sameness" to them across crews that I do not care for.

My summary of MOST M2E haters:

"M1E had several well documented flaws based on years of playing. And the full ruleset and entire line of models could have been addressed with the years of feedback in the time it took just to do wave one of a complete rewrite of every model in the game. Instead, by touching EVERYTHING you nee d lessly took away things i like."

PS. is my rpg ready?

Ok so if I take out the undead chihuahua will it be a strong list

Strong against who?

It sounds like you are new. If your community is new in general, you will be fine for quite a while. I think it sounds like a fine list and by the time it ISN'T fine, I think you will have learned why and will be able to make your own choices on fixes.

I have been down this road before a dozen times with other game systems. The older editions of rules never survive- to think 1.5 will continue in any meaningful way is pure wishful thinking.

So?

dgraz and nix, sitting in a tree... k-i-s...

As far as the malifaux community...

There was a time when I thought it was different and better.

I don't think that way anymore. Its just as petty and silly as any other on all sides of the fence.

So you saying we should wait till Malifaux 3rd edition.

I am saying that people ought to continue saying what they dislike in the hopes they can influence the future.

Actually being REALLY good at chess is about memorising all the different combos and moves. Ask any grand master. Otherwise you are just brute forcing each win like a computer, no intelligence required. But then again I'm sure plenty of chess players wouldn't be happy if chess 2.0 was checkers.

No...

Thats not what grandmasters are doing in understanding opening positions.

What they are doing is understanding where those lines lead them so that they can achieve known positions from which they can perhaps deviate or introduce "novelties" to take their opponents "out of book".

A thorough understanding of opening play is quite important at high levels of play even at the state level. But your assertion that the memorization is relevant to anything more than time-saving to come to the same sorts of conclusions to get you to the positions from which you want to approach the middle-game are wrong.

You can be quite good at chess and not know the openings at all. The openings are based in different ways on principles that can be understood without knowing a Ruy Lopez from a Sicillian or a Queen's Indian.

Develop your minor pieces, keep solid pawn structures and control the center. If you do those things, it does not matter what you call your opening.

And again, I will bring up "Go" as an example of the extreme of few rules and move options, yet is the deepest game I have ever tried.