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Zoraida's box set is nice in that the silurids are useful with a number of forces, most neverborn can use them as objective grabbers, Marcus too. Similarly Zoraida herself has a huge variety of models she can take and almost anything she can take she works well with.

One thing to keep in mind is Malifaux is nominally balanced from faction to faction and not master to master. Consequently depending on your play environment you may be hurting yourself if you don't at least get a couple masters from one faction.

Personally I've mostly been getting neverborn so far. I've gotten the dreamer box set, collodi box set, and I plan to get Zoraida's. Plus for one off models I got daydreams, a doppleganger, and a teddy. That seems to be a decent starting selection with a number of potential forces to take. At some point I'll want to get lilith and pandora most likely but those three will give me a base of choices.

Next I'm split between getting arcanists or outcasts. But in either case I'll be looking to get a few different masters to give variety.

mostly the dolls do die...and then you make more. You can usually get away with this because before they died they gutted the enemy force pretty good.

Also consider "filled with stones" spell from collodi, it makes a doll a lot tougher, lasts until the end of the game, and the reduction in speed is unimportant because at 4" walk they can still walk and pull strings to move Collodi the same 8" that they could with a 5" walk.

Also don't forget that when you pull a marionette to Collodi (with retract) you get to place it where ever you want touching his base. That alone can get you another 4" of movement over the course of 4 marionettes slinging Collodi across the board.

As for the dreamer, I agree it's a similar play style. Personally I think that Collodi is really what they were trying for with the dreamer- a fast ambush predator that can be hurt in return if the initial strike isn't hard enough. They just kind of way overshot the mark with the kid.

The point of obeying collodi isn't to get another attack off but to get him to use yet another doll boosting power or construct annoying power. That said his attack isn't useless by any means, particularly if you get off the slow trigger.

you can use the crew creator to test out what's legal and what isn't:

http://www.malifaux.com/Crew.php

hrrrrm, a fast moving hard hitter who can synergize with zoraida.

Collodi

Collodi

Collodi

Zoraida can summon him wicked dolls, he can zip around with the marionettes, he's not immune to influence, he synergizes well with wicked dolls/effigies/stitched, and he can lay down a serious smack down with marionettes getting up to 5 attacks each. He also gives you anti-construct ability that Zoraida lacks.

She'd have had blonde hair in it, the portrait used to be hung up on the wall of my friends house until she move away and took it with her.

If you hunt for Steampunk Couture on Google you should come up with more pics of Kate (or Kato as she's nicknamed these days) and her steampunk clothing line.

Okay not the one I'm thinking of. Have a rather cool lady Bathory pic with the model nude in the bath, but she has dark probably black hair.

She grew up where I live and met her through a mutual friend (who then painted her naked in a bath of Vimto for a Bathory portrait, very good painting but the song that went with it left you wanting to bleach your ears). She's a really nice girl and now lives in the States.

Oh, everyone keep up them lols!

I actually think I have that pic, although I never could have recognized her in it.

Since mindless zombies say they count as corpse counters does that mean any power that removes corpse counters from an area will remove them from play?

If that's correct I have trouble seeing how nicodem is a viable master. He needs the zombies but there are an awful lot of people who can simply remove all his little friends often with not even a simple duel required.

UFF what a bad German in this Flammenwerfer Pic...

It should be:

Flammenwerfer: Werfer der Flammen

Das ist gut! Sehr gut!

- by the way, what sould that mean, and what is so funny about that, besides that it is very meaningless german?

Only had one year of highschool german and that was a long time ago. If you actually know german it won't be funny to you because you know the words instead of just listening to the sound.

I've been muttering flammenwerfer a lot recently. That word is damn fun to say.

But he is placed (lower case "P") with Slow. Surely that offsets the benefit, somewhat? Hardly a favorable comparison to the Dreamer and his Placed Nightmares.

Yeah, I think the problem is we've gotten off on a very poor analogy all around. Partially that's my fault (the improved guard analogy part) and partially it was someone else (the comparison of placed to nightmare placement via dreamer). Neither really fits with/models the original issue.

You are really not seeing the point here. If I hire a Guard I'm not summoning it. Once it's in the game it does not get any advantage due to the fact that Lady J can summon it. Also Summoning does not have a SS cost attached.

So you would always hire the cheaper Guardsman, as the summonable version has no advantage in game. And summon the summonable one.

There is a cost for being able to summon a model and it's the summoner that pays for it, in AP, in high cards, in the abilities he gets for his cost. The summoned model gains no benefit in game for being summonable.

Of course he gets a benefit in game, he gets placed where he's needed without previously ever having been subject to any threat. That's a huge benefit. Ask any dreamer player.

OK let's put this a different way, 5 masters and a Henchman can take Necropunks, only 1 master can summon them. Should the cost of being able to be summoned be attached to the Necropunks which most of the time can't be summoned or the Summoner.

In the case of the Guild Guardsman. Does the Guild Guardsman have an advantage when I take him with Sonnia, No. Lady J has the advantage that she can summon the model so it should be costed into Lady J.

To use the latter example if you don't have the improved guard cost more how is that possibly balanced? When a model has an ability you should pay for it, even if you structure your crew such that you don't take advantage of it.

Steampunk abominations have to pay for the ability to become desolation engines even if you choose not to take enough of them. It's an ability they have. Waldgeists have to pay for their forest powers even if you have no forests on the table. And, yes, necropunks should cost appropriately given that they can be summoned by some masters directly onto the table.

Now granted the rather small range of costs for units in malifaux means that such a cost will likely be too small to warrant a full soulstone increase, but that's the chunkiness of the system and doesn't reflect a lack of value.

I did a quick survey of just the first book and came up with these:

mcmourning master surgeon LU

nicodem/mindless zombie empty vessel LU

seamus necrotic ministrations LU

seamus trail of fear

bete drawn to death LU

bete feed on death

bete depraved tactics (sever spine)

canine remains bloodhound

sybelle shriek

hanged horrible end

nurse massive dose LU

sebastian surgeon LU

wendigo/december acolyte/hoarcat pride/sabertooth cerberus devour

sabertooth cerberus roar

lilith/terror tot/young Nephilim/mature Nephilim drain blood LU

zoraida enthrall

silurid blood frenzy LU

Leveticus entropic transformation (to summon hollow waif) LU

giant mosquiteo parasitic infection LU

desolation engine industrial nightmare

hans custom ammo (+ damage flips on explosive ammo)

hamelin black death

some notes:

• I did not include any of the powers that specifically rely on corpse counters nor any power that relies on one of the powers above (for example the growth powers of the nephilim)
  
• I did not include terrify powers
  
• I did not include powers that specify some subset of living models (i.e. beasts, woes, etc.)
  
• only the first book
  
• original stats so may not reflect errata
  
• rather than adding different lines for multiple people with the same powers I just added their names to the same line
  
• "LU" indicates a power that targets living or undead
  
• a few of these are beneficial, such as the nurse's overdose
  
• I can't promise I didn't miss some
  

The Master is designed to summon models. Being able to summon models is an obvious advantage I totally agree. But lets say you look at a Necropunk as an example. It's Unliving, you can take it in a variety of crews.

• If I take Seamus I can't resummon it if it dies
  
• if I take Molly I can't resummon it if it dies
  
• if I take Kirai I can't resummon it if it dies
  
• if I take McMourning I can't resummon it if it dies
  

So I have to ask you this, is it an advantage of the Necropunk that it can be summoned, or an advantage of Nicodem that he can summon it.

it's both as I've said repeatedly. If that's unclear let's simply turn your line of argument around:

If you have Nicodem as your master

• and you take a nurse you can't resummon it if it dies
  
• and you take Mortimer/Sebastian you can't resummon them if they die
  
• and you take a desperate mercenay you can't resummon it if it dies
  
• et cetera ad nauseum
  

it's exactly the same logic. It works both ways and the inescapable conclusion is that there is an advantage to both.

Let me put it more starkly. Assume you had a model that was in all respects a copy of the guild guardsman but with one additional ability that allows Lady Justice to summon it in combat. Does that model not have an advantage over the Guild Guardsman? Of course it does. It has an ability that the other does not. Does Lady Justice enjoy an advantage she did not have before too? Yes, absolutely.

30% is a huge exaggeration, I think if you totalled up the number of Abilities that target Wp it will probably be that amount. Being non-living does not make you immune to Wp duels, neither does it make you immune to Morale Duels, it makes you immune to Terrifying and other effects that say living models. It's only a hand-full of effects that target living models. Terrifying being the one that appears most often, probably if you broke it down 75% of the abilities on models that don't effect non-living will be terrifying.

Well I guess we'd have to add it up to see because my immediate reaction to you saying only a handful of effects target living models was essentially a spit take.

Nightmare does not have to have a downside for it to be balanced. It just needs to be costed correctly into the model. Lets say I have a gun, that's a substantial advantage with no downside. Under your logic that is broken. But in actual fact it's fine as long as you pay for the ability.

Except that as before Nightmare does not appear to be costed in at all. I asked this before- which nightmare model is it you think would be over priced as a living model? As I see it they're all still a very good deal even after losing all those invulnerabilities.

I'm trying to bring your attention to the fact, that these models are living and at disadvantage against undead (who get extra corpse counters from them, who have lots of Terrifying etc.).

That is why they receive anti-undead strengths. These are anti-undead strengths meant to balance undead's own strengths. This is not a weakness at any point - balance, if anything.

Except it's not all living models that get these powers, it's specific ones. There are specific anti-undead models out there available to factions. And that's fine, but then there should also be specific anti-soulless, or anti-nightmare models.

This is strength of these models against Undead' date=' not Undead weakness.[/quote']

Really? Undead being the only models vulnerable to a power isn't an undead weakness? I think you are splitting this hair ridiculously finely.

The undead weakness is that there are a ton of powers that hurt undead. The living have an even worse weakness. Constructs have slightly less of a weakness. Nightmares and pure Soulless have no such weakness.

Now if you want to turn that around and say living have no advantage while undead and constructs have a small advantage and Nightmares and pure soulless have a huge advantage... fine. It's the same thing ultimately.

In the same way the Dreamer is designed to bury and unbury models. He has a list of models that work with him. The Nightmare ability doesn't grant the ability to move around fast. The Dreamer grants the models he was designed to work with the ability to bury and unbury. They could have just as easily wrote the dreamer's abilities work with... Long List of Models, but they keyed it off a keyword.

But either way they do it it gives the "long list of models" a big advantage that other models do not get. It's backwards to say the power is brought by the master and not the model- they both work together or not at all.

However if you look at Nightmare as a trait there is nothing overly powerful about it, it's the same as Lifer. There is nothing that makes it inherently better or worse against most crews. OK Seamus can't terrify them, but neither can they terrify any of Seamus' crew.. it kind of balance out.

Strenuously disagree. Lifer renders you immune to exactly one thing. Nightmares are immune to about 30% of the powers in the game. Not. The. same. at. all.

The question is really are the attacks on Nightmare because

a) Nightmare as an ability is over the top.

They believe the Dreamer is overpowered and the Dreamer takes Nightmares.

It's not an attack on nightmares, it's an attack on adding types to the game that have substantial advantages and little or no downside. As before soullless would be every bit as bad as nightmare if it weren't for the fact that most of them have either undead or construct to weaken them.

For some reason people really want to turn this into either a faction balance issue or a dreamer hate issue. It's not. It's a game design issue, pure and simple.

SO what your saying is that Witchling Stalkers, Steampunk Arachnids, Marionettes, Wicked Dolls, Voodoo Dolls, Onryo, Gaki, Gremlins and Piglets are all unliving now?

Being Unliving doesn't mean you can be summoned. Hanged can't, Jack Daw can't and they are both unliving. One model Nicodem has an ability that says he can summon, non-unique, non spirit unliving. It's not the fact they are unliving that makes them summonable. It's an ability of a Master so summon a set of his factions models.

I think you missed the context of my statement. Qi used an example of the various summon an undead powers to say that was purely an issue of the power and said nothing about the undead type. I'm arguing that it most definitely says something about the undead type- it gives it a big advantage that other types do not get. Of course there are other powers that summon dolls, constructs, etc. I was only answering this one narrow claim.

Only Coppelius is terrifying. to be fair. The dreamer can make them terrifying, but they are not by default.

You and Qi are right, although you are forgetting LCB who has one of the, if not the, biggest terrify rating int he game. Still I was thinking incorrectly more of the other had it (in particular Lelu, Lilitu, and I thought I remembered the stitched being able to turn it on but I'm probably remembering the dreamer doing it).

Undead do not have any particular weaknesses when facing other crews, just like Nightmares.

Really? Cause I'm looking at Lady Justice and it sure seems like she's a lot more powerful against undead than any other type of model, including Nightmares. She can cause all undead with 12" to take 3 wounds, she can sacrifice all corpse counters a couple different ways (which may auto kill mindless Zombies but I'd have to check on that), she resists undead Wp duels much better.

Similarly The Death Marshals, Executioner, and Judge are all designed specifically to be the bane of undead crews. There's no such bane for Nightmares and Soulless. Perdita is supposed to be for all Neverborn but her abilities definitely gear her towards the niphilim (destroying counters again which also works perfectly well on undead) in that group.

The reason why there is no counter to it is that the characteristic wasn't designed to circumvent the abilities other crews have.

Irregardless of the design intent it is indisputable that nightmare does in fact circumvent the abilities of many other crews. Reality trumps intent.

It reinforces the argument, that Nightmare is a limiting characteristic for the Dreamer, not otherwise.

I really don't see how that makes any sense. If the Dreamer uses a Mature Niphilim, yes he cannot teleport it but he gets exactly as much use out of it as any other master (excepting the very minor synergy Lilith has with it). That it doesn't play the way he is "supposed" to play is irrelevant. It's just as good as ever.

You've conveniently cut out my example, so I'll reiterate it:

Do you seriously consider Undead to be the characteristic that allows these models to be summoned?

I cut it out because I answered it in the affirmative- of course undead is the characteristic that allows them to be summoned. You can summon undead, you can't summon non-undead. That's pretty stark. Yes of course there is also the ability that does the summoning but when you have a subset of models that can be summoned and a subset that cannot then obviously the former enjoys an advantage.

And I'll reiterate my chief argument, before I leave the thread to its own fate - reason you can find anti-Undead abilities in chiefly living crews is that these crews give Graverobbers additional benefits (extra Corpse Counters) and as such there's need to re-balance the matchups. Originally anti-Undead abilities were mostly about being able to destroy Corpse Counters - clearly showing, this is the issue the Designers were focused on when creating them.

So where is the balance for the common terrifying ability of the nightmares that directly (and hugely) impacts living forces? Where is the balance for their ignoring half the abilities of living and undead models and rendering most of the rest of undead abilities weaker by not dropping counters? Nightmare is easily a much bigger advantage than graverobber and yet no balancing ability has been added.

The same would be true of soulless except a good number of them have either undead or construct to give them some vulnerabilities. I want you to stop and consider that- adding undead (or construct) to a soulless (or nightmare) significantly weakens them. That tells you just how powerful Soulless is.

the librarian was furiously casting to keep the vikies in the game (they were getting mauled by collodi, mature niphilim, and lilith)

Only partially... you main point seemed to be "Why take Lilith when I can take the Dreamer?" which was positively denied by Dolymite's post...

No, it wasn't really about the master as the minions, although you can point out that the same argument applies to the master (which is true) but masters already have a bunch of invulnerabilities built in which overshadows teh importance of type by and large.

The point you don't seem to be grasping though is that when a Master other than Dreamer takes a Nightmare, there is no specific advantage to taking it over another model besides immunity to terrifying and a small selection of abilities that specifically target living models... For 99% of the time when attacking the model, being a Nightmare does not matter and there are not so many attacks that are weaker against Nightmares to justify a need for lots of abilities that specifically do more to Nightmares than to other models (although there are a few of these).

I don't grasp it because I disagree with it. Far from it being the same 99% of the time I'd put it more like 30% of the time. There are simply dozens of hostile abilities that target living only. There are dozens that target living and undead or undead only. There are maybe 2 dozen that target constructs and there are 0 that target nightmares/soulless.

Compare to say the Spirit characteristic, which also has great synergy with 1 master, but at the same time by virtue of being a spirit gets additional protections - that is why there is a need for Magical weapons, which have the specific effect of applying normal damage to spirits (note - not additional damage, normal damage).

At the same time, as dolomyte mentions, spirits generally have very few wounds for their cost, which means that a magic weapon, while technically only doing normal damage, is doing it to a weaker target. If you want an anti-spirit model you have a lot of choices, anyone with damaging spells or a magic weapon is their bane.

Who is the bane of nightmares?