011121

Drink Spirit is a (1) spell and Emptiness is a (0) action and therefore can be uses for free whenever a model is sacrificed within 4" of nix (which will happen if you want it to).

Thanks for checking (or just knowing). It still appears though that it's possible to strike before either ability is in play). In general Idd expect a Hamelin force to out activate a collodi force, since usually 6 models of the collodi force will all activate together (although maybe not since the rats in proximity all activate together too, right?). That gives the Hamelin player some significant advantages but they have to be careful about which actions they do first since those may be the only actions they get before the big attack comes.

As soon as a Rat hits its target, the target receives a Blight Token.

I meant the extra damage from the token not the token itself, do the rats just get that or do they need a catcher/nix in order to get it?

Creating a Stolen is a (1) action, no cards needed. As soon as a stolen is killed or sacrificed a Rat is summoned, no matter if a model with Voracious Rats is nearby or not.

Fair enough. So bringing in a stole takes 1/3 of hamelin's actions each turn. That's pretty good, and it's certainly easier than collodi's summon a marionette (a (2)), Z.'s summon a wicked (also a (2)), or the Widow weaver's summon a wicked (a (1) but needs a scrap which can be provided by another (1) and discarding 2 cards).

Honestly the growth aspects of a Hamelin list really don't worry me. If I can kill/hex the ratcatchers then I'll kill rats way faster than 1 a turn. If I can't kill the ratcatchers it's probably because he's all clustered up in a ball. Adding another rat to the ball just doesn't really matter.

I just want to counter this nitpick by pointing out that Snow was not the Silent One who became the Blessed, and in fact appears on the following page of that story. There's no reason you can't take them together.

Actually when I wrote that I hadn't quite finished the very end of book 3 so it looked like storm had really died at the same time the blessed was created. At the end of course they did bring him back (I was only acting!) so ultimately you're right that you can use them together.

Ever read Nix's Gorge on Pain ability? He gets a free 0 action everytime a model is sacrificed within 4" of him (so Drain Essence a The Stolen for debuffing your models, a healing flip and another 0 Action). Screw Instinctual I'll take this everytime (notice also this doesn't have to be a different action like Instinctual does).

Uh, I explicitly mentioned that he had that ability in the text you quoted.

You haven't factored in Nix using both Drink Spirit and Emptiness together to force your buffed dolls back to a flip (making it again uncheatable by you) while boosting his own duel flips (note also that Drink Spirit doesn't specify it only effects strikes from the targetted model, it is a global boost as written and could target that the Stolen that is going to be saced for healing).

Both of those are actions right? I don't have the materials with me so I can't check. In that case the same consideration applies as before- it's possible to strike at him before he gets a chance to go, or after he's gone and chosen not to use those abilities. Alternatively if he uses those abilities every round you are limiting his effectiveness overall (i.e. he's always prepping for an attack that may never come). The last result is much the same as the way Zoraida's obey is sometimes more useful as a denial tactic (keeping the enemy hiding from LOS) rather than an active attack.

My assumptions originally were that Nix would not survive an ambush to use those abilities, but that may be in error due to the spirit characteristic combined on sweet taste of failure. Like I said I need to actually find time to game it out but that may have tipped the balances to making it unlikely the dolls manage to simply tear him apart.

The punches in bunches tactic the Dolls use is essentially the same concept as the Rats, only not as durable (since the dolls cant be replaced if within the of Voracious Rats). And though the Rats may have weak damage output, Nix can buff it by 2 (on a few key rats), The Rat Cathcer can buff it by 1 (on all rats within 6) and of course then there is the blight tokens which add 1 to the damage as well (so weak damage is 5 per hit not 1 for those key rats and 3 per hit otherwise).

fair enough. Is the extra damage with blight tokens inherent on the rats or does it also rely on Nix or the Catcher to go off?

Irrestible Lure is still effective at pulling those Dolls outside of Collodi's small buffing :auras (Hamelin can do this from much further than Collodi and of course cheat and SS the flip high enough that the WP buff wont matter at all. A combined total of 14 from Hamelin puts it out reach of the Dolls completely.

When are you going to find dolls outside of Collodi's buff? Pretty much the only time are those marionettes that were part of the leapfrog movement. But again those guys cannot be moved more than 8" from collodi, which makes lure pretty useless against them (unless hamelin was standing in base to base when casting it).

His crew is pretty cheap considering he can get a free 3 SS model each turn, a free rat everytime he sacs a free the Stolen, and this doesn't include the free models he gets everytime a model is killed within range of Voracious Rats. He is going to have SS.

I know Hamelin can summon stolen but doesn't it take at least an action to do so even if not ss or cards? I do understand that typically his list grows overtime as he manages to get kills and replaces casualties with new rats. But this is dependent on him not losing the models with voracious rats, which is precisely what I'm talking about hitting.

Running Collodi as a henchman weakens him somewhat as you now have spent 10 SS for just him and will only have 20 left for other things (Stiched Togethers and Effigies add up pretty quickly). Yes, Zoraida can summon some herself for free, but that is a fairly expensive thing to do every turn for her (of note is that she cant use her Casting Expert AP to do this either, so she isn't moving anywhere if bringin out Dolls) and will probably leave those new dolls out of range of Collodi's buffs anyways.

If you note the lists I suggested above I used Collodi as a master for the 25ss and Zoraida as a master for 35ss for precisely the reason you give- for a small game it's too expensive to have both a master and henchman. In terms of using Zoraida I'd try to move her with crow up to a highly inaccessable area in the first turn for two reasons-

1) better line of sight for voodoo doll summoning, and

2) to keep her away from enemy attacks

Hamelin's forces don;t have any flying or arachnid that I recall, except for Nix as a spirit, which helps with this sort of ploy. It's not always possible but often you can find a roof, ledge, mesa, something hard to get to. Since the wicked dolls once summoned can teleport to Collodi it works out fine for them. Producing a wicked doll is expensive for her in terms of Ap and the loss of opportunity to summon a VD. Still between her and the widow weaver you have significant ability to replace lost WDs and produce additional ones over the course of the game. I'd aim to have three on hand at most times so one could be killed and you'd still have wicked intentions going.

The more stuff you bring to buff the dolls equates to less dolls you have to buff (and creating them in game means precious AP that will counter your mobility).

True but I'd try to use the WW (arachnid) and Zoraida's crow ability to move into hard to get to areas to prevent direct assault, rather than trying to keep them on the run. The Arcane Effigy is the one model in my list that's really kind of stuck and pretty vulnerable to being hunted down. Although it's not without some decent combat ability.

As I said he really does have answers to virtually all of this (it ony takes a few games to really see this). Of course as Magicpockets indicated earlier all this is falling on deaf ears as you have already made your decision.

Again I think that's really an unfair thing to say. I have been listening to everything you say. I've been evaluating it. When I find it has merit I've been taking it into account. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm inured to counter arguments. It may just mean your counter arguments aren't as compelling as you believe. Or it may be somewhere in between. I think you've been drastically overselling Hamelin's abilities but I'm not accusing you of being close minded. Please afford me the same courtesy.

PS though Magicpockets is being fairly modest in regards to his competition in the upcoming tournament, if he weathered a Dreamer list built to beat his Hamelin crew... I am sure he will persever again (I consider him a bunch better than he is letting on).

I have no reason to believe he's anything but a consummate Hamelin player and I'm quite interested to hear how his tournament goes.

I think you're missing the blight tokens. so there is going to be extra dg from those

throw in the on attack and dg and you get a serious threat. Especially if you couple that with Nix. No cheat for defender, yes cheat for rat

I don't have my books with me right now so I'll take a look at how they work when I get home.

Unfortunately I think the theory-faux has stopped as you've got an opinion you've decided on and it's clear that it's not going to be changed by anyone.

I don't think that's really fair, I think I've acknowledged good points such as Nix's spirit and I've repeatedly said both that I may be missing something and asked others to expand on what I might be missing

Bottom line is I'm a fairly good Hamelin player and I'll be playing against an inevitable conveyor belt of expertly played Collodi inclusive crews next weekend at the Masters tournament. Whether I win or get my ass handed to me I'll report back with some thoughts and encourage the other guys to do the same.

Then we can put the theory-faux to bed on this.

Please do report back your experience, but I have to say I really don't see theory as quite the pejorative you seem to.

Experience is good but experience is anecdotal, it isn't data unless on the large scale. In many ways small sets of experience are way worse at being predictive than actual theory. A large set of experience incorporating dozens of players of various skill in hundreds of matches is of course the best.

A couple different commenters have said that the rats can dish out serious damage. I can't see it looking at their stats. I certainly understand how lots of little attacks can add up but it looks like each rat gets at most 1 attack with a max damage of 2 (3 with the catcher buff) and a lowish Cb. So where is the damage potential coming from? I understand you could attack with all the rats and then slaughter them (if you have a catcher) and then attack with all the new rats, but that still seems like a small number of attacks.

What am I missing? How does a typical rat attack go?

Ah okay, I though it was something easy to get off. You need multiple activations to get the dolls in there so it's a bit hit and miss.

It's pretty easy to get off in the sense that you just have to have two wicked dolls standing there. You activate 1 at the same time as Collodi and the marionettes, then bring in the second on the next activation.

In the main, I wouldn't try to approach Hamelin with Collodi as a Master. Use Zorraida + Avatar and add Collodi as a Henchman, this way you can use Hex on one Rat Cather to remove Voracious Rats and take the other one down with the Voodoo Dolls poison and the Avatar's Pins and Needles.

Which is what I suggested as my suggested 35ss force

Although Collodi is nice, he and his strike force of dolls can't do much more against Hamelin than to go for the objectives and to take out some Rats or try to kill Nix.

Also nice, as soon as the Rat Catchers are out of the game (at least for a while), you don't need to Cheat Fate anymore, due to the increadible amount of attacks Collodi's Dolls can generate they should be capable of dealing with Rat's without that. So, with the help of aZoraida's (0) Tangled Threads and Bayou Two-Cards + Mark of Fate, you can try to run Hamelin's Control Hand dry.

The main idea is that you neutralize his ability to make our models insignificant meaning he has to actually work at trying to outscore you, and because of your superior maneuverability he's unlikely to with many strategies and schemes. Taking Zoraida certainly helps though. I'd be the first to admit her usefulness.

^^ So many things I disagree with and which are flat out wrong (i.e. you can't summon wicked dolls with a doppleganger) but I don't have the will to theory-faux through all of that.

I don't think I ever said you could summon a wicked doll with a doppelganger, bu if I did you're certainly right. I said the doppelganger could help with breathe life, obey, etc.

EDIT- I did say it one place, and as above that is wrong. I fixed the original post.

This is wrong, let's do the maths -

You have 10 attacks. You need to flip an 8+ per attack to make it against the Rat Catcher as you are ht1 (see Ruffian). So we'll say 5 get through. (Averages say 4 will get through, but we'll say 5)

You only need to flip a 6 when you take into account Collodi's Wp buff of dolls. That helps a fair amount.

I don't think I'd want to get close enough to use Hex (since you can't conduit a master). Getting rid of the voracious rats on his catchers is a good idea since it makes them much less useful. Too bad the slaughter rats ability is a (0) or it'd be the perfect obey target

aZoraida is one heck of a combat caster, particularly with an Arcane Effigy backing her up.

Obviously I'm biased but I think my collodi vs Hamelin thread tells you what direction I'd go...

One quick point on this, Nix is a spirit. So that means the damage spread is -1, 1, 1, 2. Which changes your estimations somewhat.

Good point, I hadn't noticed that, and it does help him a decent amount. I really need to try gaming this out.

If using the 35ss above Nix would be a good target for Zoraida to get a voodoo doll on. Hex to take off sweet taste of failure and he'd be much less dangerous. Similarly hex on the catchers to remove voracious rats would neuter them. Neither has the Wp to resist well. Of course I'd expect the hamelin player to try and keep them out of sight but really you can only do so much defensive positioning and still make progress towards your goals, know what I mean?

taking a look at shared strategies

(shared because that drastically lowers the number of things to evaluate and because I think that's what's used in tournaments mostly)

The list below is the name of the strategy, which master has the advantage (collodi or hamelin). If it says schemes it means neither master has an advantage and it would come down to the schemes to break a tie most likely (assuming similar luck).

A Line in the Sand Collodi

Claim Jump Hamelin

Contain Power Schemes

Deliver Message Collodi

Destroy Evidence Collodi

Distract Schemes

Plant Evidence Collodi

Reconnoiter Collodi

Supply Wagon Hamelin

Escape and Survive Schemes

Slaughter Collodi

Treasure Hunt Collodi

Turf War Schemes

The strategies that require clustering in the middle (claim jump and supply wagon) favor hamelin as Collodi's maneuverability means little and Collodi can't withstand a sustained attack. The strategies that favor fast movement favor Collodi.

Consider Deliver a Message:

Unless the opponent base blocks Hamelin entirely every turn all you have to do is catapult Collodi across the board with up to three marionettes, have collodi deliver the message (because he can target hamelin), then rubber band back to your deployment zone using the last marionette. You can do this on your very first activation. Sure you'll lose one or two marionettes but given that it'll net you 4VPs it's well worth it. Furthermore since rats are slow he can't use them to pull the same trick on you, they just don't have the ap. he has to try and hunt you down with Hamelin, Nix, or a catcher. Honestly I don't see what he can do except turtle around Hamelin and play for a draw (depending on schemes).

EDIT realized two problems with the above after posting, first you can't go back to deployment zone (you can get 18-20" away which might be just fine) but more importantly you couldn't do it as a single activation because of the way collodi's pseudo-companion ability works. He can only activate all his marionettes after he goes, not before. Usually that's fine as you want C to buff before the attack, but here it messes with the plan. On the other hand this has been assuming you couldn't use a marionette to do the delivery but on rereading the strategy it just says take a (2) near the master not targeting the action. If that's the case then you could still easily do it, just not using collodi to deliver the message.

Schemes

Bodyguard, breakthrough, grudge, kill protege, stake a claim, and (of course) kidnap are all schemes that collodi can take and have a very good chance of fulfilling (depending on the strategy.

Bodyguard, grudge, stake a claim, and maybe steal relic are schemes that may work well for hamelin. Bodyguard is pretty much a gimme.

proposed crew list for Collodi

at 25ss

Collodi (-7ss)

4 marionettes (8ss)

2 wicked dolls (6ss)

Arcane Effigy (4ss)

Widow Weaver (9ss)

5ss pool

at 35ss

Zoraida + avatar (2ss)

Collodi (8ss)

4 marionettes (8ss)

Wicked doll (3ss)

Arcane Effigy (4ss)

Doppelganger (8ss)

7ss pool

The 25ss list can fill two dolls with stones and summon a third wicked doll (for two control cards) on the first turn. Second turn collodi can cast fast on dolls and fill another with stones while the widow weaver casts breathe life 2x (for 4-7 dolls affected in total, each casting gets 2-3) if you have the cards to make the CC for breathe life (she needs a 10 to do it so it's not trivial). That makes for a tough and brutal second turn pounce. If it looks like there's not going to be a good target you can always use another turn to beef up.

The 35ss list works similarly. First turn you have to choose between summoning a voodoo doll or a wicked but eotehr way you could get the other at the start of the second turn. The doppelganger helps you get initiative and copies obey or breathe life or whatever happens to be handy. Alternatively she could be replaced with the widow weaver for maximum wicked doll production capacity.

Zoraida should be able to steer clear of hamelin fairly well with raven and repulse. If she goes avatar she can nuke him to hell especially with the arcane effigy helping (she can cast 5 pins and needle spells in one turn).

The widow weaver should similarly be able to stay fairly safe with good use of arachnid. The arcane effigy can definitely be caught but it's pretty nasty and if killed was only 4ss worth (I guess a net 6 if you count the rat he'd likely get from it). Nothing to lose sleep over.

Not kills deaths just odd card things:

One attack i flipped an ace to hit. He flipped an ace to defend. That left me winning. I cheated a third ace in order to get the trigger I wanted. Must be the only time I've cheated an ace when I wasn't trying to lose.

In one game of Marcus vs Vik we had two cool events. I tried to shapeshift with myranda when I didn't have the cards in my hand to cheat it. It's a hard Ca but she made it. Later that turn One vik tried to promote a ronin into being her new BFF sister (which requires a 13 of I think one particular suit). he didn't have this in his hand either but pulled it off the top of the deck. The fates were rewarding major gambles that day.

(As if I haven't posted enough already )

I was just looking at the catcher and I don't see any ability that lets him move with the rats as a single activation. He can make rats walk towards him with a spell but that's an action point and doesn't really help in keeping surrounded (unless the rats were already all around you). The point being that even if the Hamelin player tries to keep his catcher surrounded there will be gaps in between when he goes and when the rats catch up (or vice versa).

I'm taking at least one Hamelin list to the UK Masters next weekend and there will be a lot of Collodi crews there (both leading and alongside Zoraida/LCB) so I guess we'll find out beyond this pure theory-faux:)

I understand if you don't want to do it now but after the tournament could you post your list? Of course I'd also like to hear how it went.

Probably not to start with but it is easy enough for him to get more once he starts killing your dolls (each one will net him a new Rat to activate and provide you with nothing if within range of any model with Voracicious Rats).

I don't see how he gets anything strong enough to kill dolls (meaning hamelin himsel) close enough to do the job. Maybe the odd doll here and there with pipes but I can most definitely kill rats much faster than that.

In general clumping up is a bad thing when facing a Hamelin crew (especially when they wont block LOS to your lynchpin model), The Rats will quickly devour thru the dolls (once again creating another rat that will activate). They really can generate a ton of actions and damage despite being slow.

Is there something I'm missing about the rats? They have 1 weak attack with a moderate to low cb. How do they tear through dolls?

You are underestimating how difficult it is to actually kill his crew (especially when only inflicting 1-2 points of Dg each attack on Nix and the Rat Catchers). Additionally both Nix and the Rat Catchers have an amazing ability to heal Wd's (a Rat Catcher can be hovering at deaths door with 1 Wd prior to his activation then be back at full health with just one 0 action, that also nets him a whole new Rat Swarm to activate)

It's 1-2 damage per attack but a hell of a lot of attacks. 2 marionettes can generate 10 attacks between them. 3 wicked dolls can generate 9 attacks between them. At 1-2 damage each that's over 2x what you need to kill a ratcatcher. Like I said it's really quite easy for collodi to dismember a teddy in one turn. If either nix or the catcher is tougher than a teddy I really have trouble seeing it (and they are way underpriced!). Ratcatchers can heal very well but only on their turn. Most things don't live to get a turn if collodi pounces on them with a full crew unless they have some serious defenses (usually meaning a high Df stat as armor and HTW are nearly useless against dolls).

The rest of the crew is definately not easy meat for Collodi. Killing rats that are within range of a model with Voracious Rats is always a losing proposition (since they will just be replaced as soon as killed with a new one that is able to activate again, heals all vermin within 3" 2 Wds and wont drop any corpse or scrap counters).

I agree, but the argument has always been predicated on killing the catcher first, and I think I've shown that that's not really a difficult thing to do.

Also Nix and the Rat Catchers may not start with enough rats to completely encapsulate them denying your ability to even strike at them (at least until they starty killing off your low Wd, average Df dolls), you will more than likely not be able to kill either of them in one go (so they can then benefit from those wonderful healing abilities) and retaliate on their activation.

We really disagree here. Looking at both of them I think Collodi would have to have a very bad turn not to kill either one in one shot. Nix is definitely the harder of the two if he has his aura up, but as I point out above it's entirely possible to strike at him when he doesn't (by going before him or by launching a surprise attack when he used a (0) to do something else.

Also think about how many turns it is going to take you to sup up those 4 marionettes (by my count it will take at least 4 to give them all Filled with Stones leaving 1 Ap to give up to 3 of them one of the experts for the turn if you use a Soulstone), no one is going to just sit there and watch this happen.

I wasn't assuming they all got filled with stones because as you point out it's a slow process (although with a 4 pt arcane effigy it goes 2x fast, add in a doppelganger and you could do 3 a round). If they do all have filled with stones you can forget about rats tearing through them.

The making things insignificant things is only a part of his nastiness (and without having to do that it allows him to focus on other things, like killing Collodi and taking away that protection and the supped up marionettes). Collodi is a great model but he suffers more from Key Model syndrome than probably any other model in the game.

Again I agree that collodi's crew is entirely dependent on him. What I don't see is how hamelin manages to force collodi to fight him straight up. He's just not fast enough to catch collodi. He doesn't have significant ranged firepower. His lure doesn't work on collodi or really even his marionettes. So how does he come to grips with the puppet boy? I'm fully willing to admit there maybe some tricks to hamelin I'm not getting from just looking at the sheet.

What's more I've been talking about a 17ss Collodi crew (4 marionettes plus 3 wicked dolls). That leaves room for more stuff like the Effigy, a weaver, Zoraida, stitched, as examples. If Collodi can dismemeber groups of rats and catchers (I know you disagree but I really have trouble seeing where he wouldn't just annihilate them wholesale) and you have these other models to either provide back up dolls, buffing, or go after hamelin himself, I have a hard time seeing how hamelin wins. particularly if he forgoes schemes in order to have soulstones.

This is the realization I mentioned in my edit.

fair enough.

Uh oh.. There's alot going on here.. Again let's assume no interfering terrain/models (even small/simple things like a wall/fence and 2~3 rats could potentially block any attackers with 1" melee range so I find it to be a bit harsh of an assumption, but let's go with it).

keep in mind that if on a given turn a ratcatcher is well blocked by terrain you can simply choose not to pounce. Unless the table is really cluttered or the ratcatcher is not moving it's unlikely to happen every turn. And if he isn't moving then you've pinned him down for free. This is what has always made mobility such a potent force in combat- the ability to pick and choose when and where you fight to your own advantage.

(snipped the explanation but I quite liked it)

So that was a long talk and some obscure math that I haven't explained at all simply to say you're a little better than at 50/50 to kill him.

I wasn't clear here if you included the poison 2 from the wicked dolls. They need a crow to get the trigger but with enough attacks one of them should get it.

Now if you don't kill him he'll get to kill the rats around him inbetween your next activations and heal up and it's all been for naught.

Are we assuming he manages to flip a 10 so he gets actions besides walk and pass?

Bit of a gamble, don't you think? Also, even if you do win.. What's your current situation then?

It's not guaranteed but I think it's a very good gamble really. Let's say he survives. Most likely he's slowed by the marionette's attacks. Let's further say he manages to flip or cheat a 10 in order to act. So he takes a (0) to kill his rats, heal up, and create new rats. Then he gets 1 action point to do something. He can either hit something or he can buff his rats. He might kill a doll with his attack but it's far from guaranteed. Then his rats go. Each of them has to flip a 10 to do anything but walk or pass too. Does hamelin really have that good hand control that he can flush 4 ten+ cards with no problem?. Let's assume they all manage to go. Each rat gets 1 attack. The damage is insufficient to kill a marionette with one shot (unless the ratcatcher chose to buff, then it can on moderate or high damage). Any marionettes with the filled with stones effect (Armor +2 and hard to kill, in addition to their normal hard to wound) are pretty much invulnerable to rats. The wicked dolls are a little more fragile with only 2 wounds and no hard to wound. A rat may take one down with a lucky shot although the doll has def 6 and the rat Cb4.

I think altogether the damage the ratcatcher and rats could inflict is pretty minimal, maybe a dead wicked doll or marionette. Meanwhile the next turn would guarantee the ratcatcher died since all the dolls would already be on site and able to concentrate full attention on him. Then any rats killed by wicked dolls become new wicked dolls.

A bunch of activated Marionettes most likely with most of your hand spent, I think it's only fair to expect to lose one or two unless of the Ratcatcher was all alone, but we're taking all the assumptions a bit far now, aren't we?

I honestly think that between the low offense of rats, their lack of attacks, the high def of dolls and the difficulty of rats to act in the first place given wicked intentions that they'd be quite lucky to kill a doll (assuming 3-4 rats).

Losing Marionettes is a big deal for Collodi, he gets significantly slower with a lower damage output and loses options for shrugging off attacks on him.

certainly, but he can also replace them (it take a 2 action and a scrap counter, so it's far from trivial, but it's not a permanent impairment). When fighting collodi it's key to take out the marionettes. What I'm saying is I don;t think the rats are capable of doing it.

Hamelin doesn't draw on discarded cards so flurrying doesn't matter

good to know, I was assuming that discarding was a form of "playing"

The Pipes are 1/3/3, please take a look on your Marionette/Wickeds Max Wd stat. Pipes will do fine, not sure why you're so focused on the Lure, much too unreliable unless you just happened to place a bunch of Dolls close to him.

Alright then. He's got a good Cb (7 vs a marionettes def of 5 and a wicked's def of 6) so he's got a good chance to hit. On moderate or higher damage he'll kill either type of doll. But it's worth noting that hard to wound means a - flip on damage meaning no cheating and more likely to get light. Reading fate is meaningless I don;t think it'd apply to damage flips, just to the attack action but I might be wrong. Useless toy might well help him get a good enough attack to get a plus flip. But then he's killing a friendly model just to get a decent shot at killing a 2ss marionette that I can make more of. If that's the best he does on his turn I'm not really worried about him. If he managed to start his turn in 10" I could be in real trouble as he might very well kill 2-3 marionettes which would really hurt (2) or cripple (3) collodi. But if he was in that range walking plus chain lure would be much more effective.

few points 011121.

About killing Nix. So so so hard. The real reason is that Nix gains a wound every time someone in 2 inches fails a duel. So the small number of wounds you're dealing are healed each time they fail to hit him, which is likely considering his -flips.

Nix's aura isn't on all the time, it's a (0) action. He doesn't have instinctual and he has several 0 actions (although he does get a free (0) if something near him is sacrificed). This means if you go before him in a turn he doesn't have it. And even if you go after him him always using the aura means he's not doing something else. Finally as all the dolls we're talking about have paired even with the aura it's still a straight flip.

Essentially for any attack the doll will do -1, 1, 2, or 3 damage to Nix (with -1 meaning healing 1 due to missing). Each miss then cancels out a light damage. You might well end up with as many hits as misses due to Nix's def, but not all the attacks will be light damage, and he only has 6 health. Out of the huge number of attacks the dolls generate you just need 6 moderate, or 3 severe, or some intermediate point between the two (assuming equal hits and misses so each moderate is worth 1 damage overall and each severe is worth 2). Plus poison from the wickeds.

About the whole rat catcher vs dolls thing. There is no doubt that if you devote your whole crew to icing one, you probably can do it assuming you are not under the effects of Nix's debuffs. Trouble is you are probably dangerously close to Hamelin now. You cannot downplay the danger of Lure to you. especially if you are under Nix's debuffs.

2 things:

1) this is usually how collodi works. He's an ambush predator. He springs on a group of models and tries to kill everything there then springs away.

2) Collodi (as a master) + 4 marionettes + 3 wicked doolls is only 17ss. It's not your whole force. A ratcatcher plus say 3 rats is 11ss. It's usually well worth using 17ss to annihilate 11ss worth of models, particularly if you get a few free 3ss models out of it.

If the ratcatcher is real close to hamelin (within 8" then yeah it'd be a suicide run most likely. Outside of 8" lure is not that dangerous to Collodi for the reasons above.

Hamelin will have stones to spend. He doesn't ever need to spend them to survive. Its not an issue for him. He'll have minimum two stones. No reason to take two schemes if your Hamelin. I try to keep three to four stones. If it means killing key figures its dead.

He has no cache which means every soulstone is a soulstone he didn't spend on troops or a scheme he can't score on. Honestly I'd be thrilled to have him forgo schemes. The whole point of this is to outscore him by outmaneuvering him and destroying any forces of his that spread out.

Something else to consider is that Hamelin will always have better cards. He can draw off his discard and he'll be taking high cards back. His totem grants a card a turn and he can sap models to get cards. Useless toy lets him sap a model for a double ++ to his next attack which i believe can be lure. Maybe he didn't move you into base with him and your dolls are alive? Youre certainly close enough that the surviving rat catcher might move his rats with Moldy cheese and now your surviving dolls have to deal with the rats on the table.

I'll take your word for it regarding the cards, although it's worth noting that if you do run Collodi with Zoraida or some effigies you can get some nice card tricks yourself.

As for collodi getting scrap, only if he's outside of voracious rats.

true. In any ambush the order of attack priority would be Nix then Catchers, then rats. I'd definitely pause and think about it if the only target was Nix (+his aura) with a catcher and a bunch of rats. If I could use 1 marionette to get there and maybe had help buffing the dolls before hand (Widow weaver, doppelganger, zoraida, or arcane effigy) then it'd be worth a shot.

Again, this is all theoretical. I'd like to see two pros duke it out with these leaders.

I completely concur. I have essentially no experience with Hamelin so it's entirely possible I'm missing tricks to pull with him.

Zoraida brings a lot but there are other options too. Consider Collodi as the master and adding an arcane effigy. Not only does it give you more cards to work with but first turn you can have it add a casting Ap to Collodi allowing him to cast 2 filled with stones, which dramatically improves the survivability of marionettes (and lasts the entire game) in preparation for a 2nd turn strike. If the options for a 2nd turn strike don;t show up you can buff the remaining 2 marionettes similarly and be in great shape for a third turn strike.

Zoraida can make new wicked dolls of course but so can the wido weaver, and she can also buff dolls with breathe life. A doppleganger can copy whatever works on the models you have (filled with stones, breathe life). Of course the WW and doppelganager are expensive so it really depends on the size of the game. The AE is reasonably cheap though and a huge bargain considering what you get.

in the third book it's on the brutal effigy but with no explanation.

someone was saying Hamelin debuffs opponents. Other than the insignificant thing I'm not seeing any debuffs on him. Am I missing something?

@011121:

Do you remember the fix to the Marionettes?

"'Pull Strings' This Action may be taken once per turn, so each Marionette can only use it once each turn."

I'm only asking because, quite frankly, I do not see how you can move in and take out a Ratcatcher as easily as you claim without leaving yourself in a very undesirable position afterwards, if you start letting your Marionettes get turned into Rats it's pretty much game for you..

Each marionette can move collodi 8" by first zipping to him, then walking, then pulling strings. Actually it's more than 8" because you can place the marionette on collodi's front when it retracts and then place collodi on the other side of the marionette when you pull strings, so it's more like 9-10" for each marionette used just to move. And this movement isn't slowed at all if you've used fill with stones on any or all of the marionettes.

So let's assume the rat catcher is within 20" (a reasonable range of attack I think you'll agree). That means you take collodi's turn buffing marionettes/wicked dolls. A (2) makes them all fast. Another (1) spell makes at least 1 and likely 2 have melee expert.

So you use 2 marionettes to get in position. The second of which still has an ap to attack with. the other two have (3 flurry + 1 fast + 1 melee expert = 5 attacks each). Total of 11 attacks with just the marionettes. Then the Wicked dolls add in. The rat catcher's armor doesn't really matter since the marionettes usually just do 1 damage anyway. You do have to win the ruffian brawls but with collodi buffing them they just need a 6 (I just checked the rules manual and tying the target number does beat the duel).

Then the wicked dolls come in. If the Catcher is still alive he's facing another 3 attacks from each (due to the fast Collodi gives them) plus poison 2 if they get a crow. And once the wickeds are in place all those rats need to flip a 10 in order to do anything but walk or pass (the catcher if it somehow survives needs the same). It's a brutal combination.

What's more let's say the rat catcher is within 30" not 20. Well then you use one more marionette to move but give melee expert to one of the wickeds instead of that marionette. So when you get there you have 1 marionette with 1 attack, 1 marionette with 5, and then 1 wicked with 4 attacks (2 + fast + melee expert), and possibly more with "just" 3 attacks each.

I really don't see how the catcher has a prayer of surviving unless he literally surrounds himself with rats. If you resist the urge to flurry you'd have less attacks but Hamelin won't be drawing cards.

Also.. If you don't take Stitcheds (or the Widow Weaver, but eh..) then you're letting Hamelin have such an unbelievable freedom as to what he'll be able do because.. You simply can not harm him.. At all.. Whatsoever.. (Unless you try to take him head on with Collodi himself.. Probably not that good an idea though..)

Granted, but Hamelin can't be everywhere. He's just not that fast. Again the point isn't to kill Hamelin. It's to demolish his crew if the spread out and to out maneuver them (meaning grabbing objectives) if they clump up.

Hamelin could beeline and waste his Soulstones on taking your Marionettes out with the Pipes if he so desired.. You'd have to avoid entering a 16" or so bubble around him.. That's hard to do if he's in the middle of the table, regardless of the mission you're playing.. Even with the 20" or so of movement Collodi has, and don't forget that you'll be leaving the Marionettes behind scattered in your tracks untill they activate again when making such a sprint..

So what can Hamelin do? if he gets close he can irresistible lure and kill puppets wholesale. But to do that is a (1) action and he has to be within 8" of Collodi to have it affect the marionettes. They literally cannot be pulled more than 8" from him. The wickeds he could try chain casting in which case he could get them from 15" away (three walks for them). It drops to 12" if collodi uses filled with stones on them but realistically he won't be able to do that on many dolls since it's a (2) spell. Also worth noting that Hamelin's casting is only equal to the dolls Wp when they get Collodi's buff. There's no guarantee that a chain lure will work every time, even if he conspires to start his turn within 15" of collodi. He can burn soulstones but Hamelin has no starting pool.

Other than that his pipes are 10" range. So he could run twice and make a range attack for a total 20" threat range but almost no actual damage.

I'm open to ideas but it seems like Hamelin is really only a threat if Collodi lets him get close (as in probably to within 8"). Hamelin most likely can pick off the occasional straggling marionette but collodi can create more with a scrap counter on any turn he isn't pouncing (even turns when his dolls are doing clean up on the target they pounced on last turn).

Last night we played Zoraida vs Hoffman. The Doppelganger ran up to grab the treasure and got pounced on by his mech rider and hoffman. it quickly became clear that she was not getting out of there alive but Copellius and a stitched were nearby so she copied the C's ability to do 4 Wds to anyone who kills him and then gambled her life (stitched) with Hoffman so he was in the unenviable situation of both outcomes sucking for him. She died a lot but did some major damage on the way out.

My favorite is probably playing Lilith vs Von Schill. A mature Neph pounced on Von Schill second turn and killed him outright, even getting the rip in half trigger off. Von Schill gets his slow to die and stabs the Neph in the head almost killing it right back.... which is damn impressive after you've been ripped in two.

He really doesn't have to move all that much for most Strategies and Schemes, after all his entire crew is significant so can complete objectives without him. With a pretty vanilla list

Outcasts Crew - 30 - Scrap

Hamelin the Plagued

--

3 Pool

• Nix, the Bull Terrier
  [7ss]
  
  
• Rat Catcher
  [5ss]
  
  
• Rat Catcher
  [5ss]
  
  
• Malifaux Rat
  [2ss]
  
  
• Malifaux Rat
  [2ss]
  
  
• Malifaux Rat
  [2ss]
  
  
• Malifaux Rat
  [2ss]
  
  
• Malifaux Rat
  [2ss]
  
  

But without hamelin the rest of his list is easy meat for collodi. There's just nothing there that can stand up to an assault by 4 suped up marionettes and several wicked dolls. Notice your list doesn't even have enough rats to do the base blocking you talked about for one much less both catchers.

I agree that it should be tried out but I just can't see on paper what Hamelin can if the strategies don;t favor having all your guys clumped together and mostly immobile.

EDIT- I'm overselling it here a bit, I'm not saying a collodi win is guaranteed, but I think he neutralizes Hamelin's main strength (making models insignificant) and therefore makes an excellent choice to go after piper-boy