011121

Okay but doesn't your case c directly contradict the book on page 42 (quoted above) which seems to indicate that ANY opposed duel has at least a defender (and reasonably if there is a defender there's an attacker). That's what I've been asking about. You seem to be saying you can have an opposed duel with no defender, the book seems to be saying the opposite.

Yes it works great. As for the WW's movement, keep in mind she has arachnid and so clambers up on top of things very well. It's nice for keeping her safe and since she can make teleporting dolls and has a ranged attack it's pretty much ideal.

Okay so here's a few examples:

Dreamer uses inflict dreams which gives a target model a - flip for Wp, Df, and Ca when defending against nightmares. Now any opposed duel caused by a nightmare will run into the issue; An Alp using Yawning, a Stitched using gambler or gamble your life, an Insidious madness' hysteria or psychosis, and so on. Similarly daydreams have disturbing whispers which give non-masters -1Wp when defending a duel. Same thing.

It seems like a fundamental problem more than a single model issue, we have to know whether an opposed duel always has a defender or not. And if not, when does it not.

A book on Soulstones?

Gah! Don't you know the Dewey

Decimal System!

You do know you can run two librarians, right? I just checked and they aren't unique or rare 1 or anything.

What I seem to be hearing here is that Zoraida's box then is nothing special and that she has no particular models specialized to her (unlike say Dreamer Nightmares, Pandora Woes and Lilith Nephilim) to the extent that picking her and her totem up makes you good to go with a neverborn crew (assuming you have any neverborn models). That about right?

Good to know. I have to say I prefer her origional sculpt to the alt one though.

I like her box set personally. Silurids are awesome at objective running because they can (0) leap and still take a (2) interact, or (0) leap , (1) walk and still take a (1) interact action. They're zippy as all hell.

Bad JuJu is not the best for Zoraida but he's still pretty cool. He's roughly on par with a teddy in terms of toughness and power but has a slight mobility edge given that he can show up where he wants the first time. He's a great objective holder. Plus he looks cool.

That said no you don't need her box set. The only thing she needs is a voodoo doll (and it isn't in the box set anyway).

uh that's exactly what he just said. The model gets 2 poison counters in the end phase, then on their next activation they take 2 wounds and go down to 1 counter. At the next end phase they go back up to 2 counters (assuming conduit still in play).

Posted over from the teaser thread:

That's great, but it doesn't resolve the much more fundamental question brought up by the previously quoted section of the rules:

Sorry to keep going here:

According to page 42:

Attacks are Attacker vs Defender.

According to page 28:

Opposed Duels are Acting Model vs Defending Model.

Does this mean that a Defending Model doesn't qualify as a "defender"?

Is this one of those Range vs Rg things?

According to that, defensive abilities (stubborn, immune to influence, etc) should operate in ANY opposed duel. But Ratty was saying that there is no defender/attacker so they don't. That's a fundamental rules conflict we really need addressed because it affects a much larger number of models than just Tannen (like almost every construct and the freikorps and lots more).

Insidious madness also helps Zoraida by opening up obey options to include Immune to Influence models.

Zoraida, as it has been often observed, works with basically anything.

My son started with the Dreamer adn I resisted getting Pandora mostly because both crews do so much by way of morale or at least Wp duels that I felt they sort of overlapped. Lilith I thought was okay but I really didn't care for the nephilim archtypal demon look (although I have been thinking about picking up angels from another miniatures game to use as nephilim like this guy as the mature:

See that? That I like.)

Anyway, so I went for Zoraida. Never regretted it, not by a long shot.

They don't have avatar stat cards on the webstore from what I've seen. Am I overlooking them? In fact I don't think they have stat cards from anything in the third book in the store.

Or the Zoraida crew above looks very good, for some reason i didn't think of not using the twins in ether list

Sometimes I think I'm the only neverborn player who doesn't use them. Personally I just don't like them model or playwise. Obviously most people do. Like in abundance.

I haven't used nephilim much so this may not be ideal but:

• Marionette
  [2ss]
  
  
• Marionette
  [2ss]
  
  
• Marionette
  [2ss]
  
  
• Marionette
  [2ss]
  
  
• Mature Nephilim
  [10ss]
  
  
• Terror Tot Nephilim
  [3ss]
  
  
• Young Nephilim
  [6ss]
  
  

The Mature is definitely better than teddy for a Zoraida list since it can be obey'd. The smaller nephilim are there to give you extra activations and threaten to grow up. You only have 5ss but Zoraida isn't a voracious user so she can leave most of them for collodi if he gets in trouble.

An arcane effigy would do wonders for you. Doppelgangers are ridiculously useful as well. And as above stitched and wicked dolls.

With that I'd highly recommed getting stitched and especially wicked dolls. Zoraida can summon the WD and Collodi loves them.

Teddy is a nice model and he's a bear (no pun intended) in combat but he's a little pokey and can't be obeyed due to immune to influence. He's the odd man out in the group because the rest all work together ridiculously well.

Zoraida... you're doing it right.

Sure but most of those are self explanatory and frankly obvious. The not copyable thing kind of comes out of left field.

Should I point out that harems don't have to be exclusively female? That males and even canine remains (seamus is a sicko) might well fit in them?

Nah, probably not.

Anyhoo... I think you may have a little trouble with the specific theme set you are going for simply due to a lack of big hitters (besides Seamus himself). I've never gotten the impression the named belle (madam whatshername) was well regarded by the majority of Seamus players, but I may be wrong. Although as an alternative you could get a different model that fits your theme and use it for a dead rider or whatever.

Personally the theme that I'd like to try is elemental undead and have Seamus with hanged (air), crooked men (earth), and drowned (water, duh). Maybe book 4 will introduce a fire spirit undead.

I've moved down to Eugene, but if you are in this area, and want a game, let me know.

As Ratty has already said

Page 42 (Twisting fates I assume).

Interesting. Random, but interesting. Probably could have been made a bit more obvious, really. How many people reference page 42 when playing with avatars rather than the avatar card itself?

However, I am also not aware of where it says you cannot copy abilities from avatars. Any link/page on that Ratty? Have I missed something?

Ditto, can we get clarification on that point?

Edit: Double Ninja'd

"I think it was two ninjas taped together to make on giant ninja!"

I'm not sure of synergy but Iggy is a Woe.

He really puts Pere and Loco to shame.

I look forward to (re-)killing him with miners

Zoraida roxxors everyone's soxxors.

Okay, I feel dirty.

Ice Mirrors is pretty easy for anyone coming over from Warmachine (except maybe Khador players who avoided the Old Witch), and adding 6" to a 10" spell is a 60% boost in range, or pretty substantial in this game. There's also the 'not needing LOS from Raspy' aspect that makes ice mirrors more than just a range boost. 6" is also 1/6th of the total board length/width. Imagine if Snipe added 8"s of range (the equivalent 1/6th of a 4'x4' table) in Warmachine...

I never played Warmachine, so maybe that's part of it, I just look at the ability and think "when am I ever going to be within 16" but not within 10" and also not in line of sight but have a model with ice mirror who is in line of sight of me and my enemy and is also within 6" of me?" Frankly just thinking about trying to set it up in order to use it gives me a migraine.

The casting penalty then just feels like insult on top of injury (namely my throbbing headache).

Sadly, when I heard that ability was an important one for rasputina I knew I wasn't going to play her much. She feels like work to play.

Ugh. Lilith is like THE worst target for them though because of her defensive trigger. Actually, Nephilim in general are a bad crew to face off with Collodi. Black Blood is going to make things miserable for the dolls in my experience. It's the attrition war they are going to lose.

Doesn't black blood only affect living? I can't remember for sure but I thought so. On Edit- never mind it was non-Neverborn not living. But yeah people with reprisal attacks are bad for collodi (Lady Justice leaps to mind), or at least his typical operation, it's fine if you vary things up and use WP buffed stitches.

Actually, I'm not sure what I would take against another Neverborn player in a tournament.

Zoraida. They're all just puppets to her.