Necromorph

Can't be used with ruthless models is kind of annoying, it means I have to choose Von Schill or Sue and I'd rather have Von Schill.

I'm still sad that Kaeris can't take him. I'd have swapped gunsmiths for Sue anyday!

Plus he has Dispel Magic and Shrug of, why he's not a Guild model already is beyond me. He doesn't work with the best Mercs, the Kaeris gunline would benefit a lot from him, but she can't take him with gunsmiths...he really only works with Guild.

I'll be glad to have him when I play lady J every once in a blue moon, but that's about it.

35ss honestly. I think, like others, that it gives you the most variety of crew selection while keeping things like game time into the equation. It also helps everyone pretty equally.

At lower or higher ss limits I tend to see the game's balance (what balance there is) begin to bend. Certain crews and factions can still take their core powerhouse models at 30 and sometimes even at 25 whereas others cannot. The same is true of games played over 40ss, though I have less experience at 40+ so ill have to test it, but I see no reason for the curve not to go the other way, where certain crews will be able to take too many of their awesome models and then it just turns into a "who's cheezier"-fest.

Its Insignificant and therefore, cannot harm Hamelin.

Ratcatcher Hamelin is fair game though.

Well, it can't target Hamelin, but it can land stuffed piglets near him and blow them up for unavoidable dg. Though, if I saw a pigapult across the table as Hamelin I'd be all over it by turn 2...since the rest of the crew won't be able to do much to stop him lol.

Still a great model, but yeah, i've found it requires a list built around it to work, and for Somer, who only draws 5 cards, it can be a bit resource/suit intensive to keep the thing shooting/hitting consistently.

Ok, so I'm playing today and I'm probably going to use Nico's avatar in one of my games. We were discussing this the last time, but how does his ability to create MZ's off of models dying work?

I can't remember the name...as I don't have my book handy, but I'm sure you know the one I'm talking about. It says, "Whenever a non-Mindless Zombie corpse counter is placed on the table within 6", place a mindless zombie in contact with the counter and remove the counter."(Quoted from memory) Now, does that mean that every time a corpse counter that Isn't a mindless zombie hits the table it makes an MZ? Or does that it only works when anything dies except mindless zombies generate an MZ?

Basically, does his ability work like Hamelin's ability where rats spawn more rats when they die? Do mindless zombies generate more mindless zombies when they die within 6" of Nico's avatar?

I get it,

the company's job is to make money..... so I can't fault them for wanting to design models that certain player types are encouraged to buy...

but those models just seem to become a flag to me of "this is not the kind of player I enjoy playing with..."

And I know others who've made similar comments about other games... Examples including the Mage Hunter Strike Force, Haley Turtle, and Blightwater in Warmachine/Hordes... or Chaos (certain builds), Ellisian Drop Troops, and Imperial Guard Leaf-Blower in 40k... I've even had people ask me not to run my Cutter in Infinity at under 300 points...

Agree on the whole, certain factions/armies making people quit games due to power creep...though I would argue that the cutter isn't that bad, and I don't think Infinity specifically has anything that compares to the Alp Bomb or FILTH lists...but anehoo, that's off topic.

In general, yes, the company is trying to make money and I think it is a little selfish (don't take this as an attack I'm merely stating my opinion on the matter) to say "Well I bought what I like, I shouldn't have to buy anything else to win because I don't want to." The game is designed that way, so that different models are designed to combo with others, especially in Malifaux above most other games. You don't have to use every model, but if you have a specific crew/crews, you might need to buy some more models in order to handle the majority of opponents. Unfortunately, this game isn't designed like others where one balanced list played by a competent person will win you most games.

However....I think that with the Alp Bomb, Hamelin, Dreamer in general, Filth, etc, you do have to buy very specific sets of models and or entire crews just to handle them. Those models might be great against said lists, but might be worth s**t vs others. I don't think it's quite right to have crews that are so hard to counter that you need to go out and buy a whole new set of models just to deal with THAT CREW...since they are a minority and not always seen commonly in most gaming communites. It is another facet of the issue that I think needs to be considered when discussing counters and balance amongst the top teir masters.

Yes, I agree Paradox, in specific reference to the Alp bomb. However, I don't think that many would disagree that the Dreamer is probably the best (top 3 for sure) master in the game, and he can easily crush most opponents if played by a decent player with a well rounded crew...alps or no alps. That psychological impact of having an entire crew of hard hitting models drop in your lap turn 1 still applies to a standard dreamer crew, and it is still very effective with the bury/unbury techniques. The sheer power and "mind-f**k" ability of the crew is still going to be a factor when it comes to people "not enjoying the game".

This of course is the same issue with Hamelin and Pandora, but for different reasons. Those crews are mentally demoralizing to play against. They make you want to throw up your hands and quit because they indirectly beat your opponent by hurting them while denying the opponent the ability to do anything about it (i.e. being insig. and bully, or taking wd on wp duels you have a snowball's chance in hell of passing...constantly). Taking Wd's or losing models when you can't do anything to stop it is frustrating...and thus not very fun, leaves a sour taste, and makes people not want to play against those masters anymore.

think we ought to cultivate support and perseverance ("I have that crew/faction, and I find the Dreamer hard, please help me to beat him!") rather than pessimism and bitterness ("This is impossible, and I'm giving up!"), which makes Dreamer's opponents flee and Dreamer players feel bad for liking that particular crew.

This is pretty much how I feel with my Hamelin crew. Every time I bust him out, my friends will give me s**t for weeks about "that game with Hamelin" where I completely stomped them. The problem is, you can't NOT do that with some masters. If you don't use the basic abilities of the master, then you're sandbagging and losing on purpose, which isn't the right way to go about it either. As a dremaer player you could...not drop your whole crew turn 1, you could not prime all of your models with terror 12 and defensive before you go in, but you will, again...be sandbagging.

It sucks because I was drawn to Hamelin and his fluff from the moment I opened book 2 last year, but now I feel bad every time I put him on the table and just end up pissing my friends off.

I would generally go with the little step by step provided above...it's actually pretty solid.

Yes, I've found he's much tougher to keep alive, for many of the reasons Tadaka said. However, as has been said, if you're super agressive, you can force them to deal with your crew. Yes, there are crews that have his number pretty hard...which is basically anything fast, that can ignore many terrain rules: crews like Dreamer, Kirai, Lilith, and Colette...and as Tadaka mentioned, any Guild crew with Austringers.

Against Austringers, I would take a Guardian and have it Protect one of them. Keep that Waif behind your crew as you move up and use the other waif as a distraction. Against the super fast crews, you'll have to keep one just about always in a corner to make it not worth the positioning for your opponent to go after it (granted a smart opponent will just kill the other one, making you start in a corner every time). Not literally in a corner, but you get what I mean, all the way in the back. This is kinda gimp, but as we said, he get's hosed by a lot of the book 2 masters and any "super fast" masters.

Another option is to run Levi's avatar. Sure, you need to run riders, which is cool, but not always super effective. However, Levi uses the Riders as his Waifs when in avatar form, and he becomes a 10wd Spirit, so he's much harder to take down. This will help against some of those bad matchups, but again, a super fast crew may be able to take you down before you can even manifest...which sucks, but it's something at least.

Metro Detroit, MI

Nothing banned, and no house rules.

However, there are certain taboo kinda models/crews...JD, Hamelin, Dreamer, etc which don't really see use outside of tournaments. I still use JD with Kirai/Levi but I won't use Hamelin and Odin won't use Colette unless it's a tournament...in which case, prepare to cry, haha.

Dora the explora is is indeed.

Huh, my guess was starts with H and ends with Amelin, but they're both pretty equally unfun to play against.

This is what I figured and hoped for. It seems like another case of "playing the rules and not the game." If you have a poison coated dagger and you whiff bad when you go to stab somebody, how exactly are they going to get poisoned? Same goes for if you slash them but their armor, clothing, equipment etc takes the blow, it's not actually hurting them. I know Wyrd often has cryptic rules that sometimes trip people up, but this one just seems like common sense.

Right you are, was just looking at it. Either way, rats are less than effective against alp bombs, although since they won't die, they'll just make more rats, you can use them for extra activations until you get hamelin in position to pulse the bomb down.

The way I understood the whole rats/alps thing is that if you try to do anything other than pass or writhing mass away with the rats, they die, make new rats, and alps at the same time due to the wording of the alps ability (could be wrong here, but that's how I interpreted it here). Which would mean a whole lot of alps. On the other hand, even if I'm wrong, that still means that the rats will die every time they do anything but their (0)'s within range of the alps. I guess you could use the rats being placed into base with the dying rats to chain them further back until they are out of the alps range, but this would take a while timewise.

I rarely run rats as standard with Hamelin anymore unless I'm going for his Avatar, so it's really never been an issue...Irresistible Lure is the way to go, haha.

Only comment...rats will not be good with Hamelin. If they die making strikes...they generate more alps, bad bad. If you can make a rat through sac'ing a stolen and then (0) Writhing Mass the rest out of the bomb it might be ok, but otherwise, rats vs. alps is 'tarded. Just use (1) Irresistible Lure to take out the alps.

Alyce or Misaki...pretty much it, haha.

Yeah, I have yet to face said alp bomb, but fortunately, it seems like my main faction, outcasts, is in a pretty good spot to deal with them.

Levi- Has a lot of tricks and access to any construct with an AoE.

Hamelin- Irresistible Lure, bye bye alp bomb.

Gremlins- Pere Ravage/Pull My Finger.

Mercs- Specialist.

I do agree though, that when we try to come up with strategies to beat "broken" models/synergies/interactions, it's usually from a purely "on paper" point of view. Figuring out that you can beat something doesn't mean that your opponent is stupid enough to let you pull it off/not see it coming.

Von Schill works great with a ton of masters. I personally like him a lot with Lady J. Not for his damamge, not for his utility (though both are nice) but as a resilient distraction to help LJ get into combat more easily. I think it's a bit more versatile than the Lucius slingshot, but to each his own.

Yeah, I don't know, I really don't think I would ever use her avatar again, unfortunately. Here's the thing, all these lists we're throwing out there are complete diversions from how kirai usually seems to run successfully (from what I've used/seen played). You have to tailor a list around her, and completely alter your playstyle just to use her avatar...which is mediocre at best as far as these avatars go. The Gaki/NT swarm isn't a bad idea, but you'll need hitters or you'll never be able to kill anything, (your avatar will be a support role in dg dealing at best) granted you can sacrifice with Gaki, but you get the point.

The avatar itself is just really underwhelming. It's damage is average with cb7, possibly cb9...not bad, but not a whole lot better than Ikiryo in the first place as it's not paired. IMO her attacks should be paired OR should have kept their 3/4/6 dg spread from her stat card (yes they verified the book3 stats over the stat card for those who didn't see the post). Also, she has a couple nice pushes and the ability to move to friendly models in combat, but compared to her Master form mobility it just seems lackluster (is it me, or does she have some similar mechanics to the Viks avatar...without a cb8 paired 4/5/7 minimum dg melee weapon?). Granted, she is a spirit...but hell, even Levi is a 10wd spirit in his A form, and he comes back, haha.

To me, it seems like you gain a couple push tricks and get to keep ikiryo's melee attack, but lose the majority of her mobility, healing, and utility when you manifest. To me (and this ofc is all IMO), she isn't ever really worth it to manifest unless you're having fun. For those that defend her, and please, don't think I'm saying she CAN'T be used, this is just my opinion, she won't be "competing" strongly in the game, but she is fun while she's on the table, I can at least say that much.

Yeah...the big reason you get so many is that A) your rats always stay on the table so long as hamelin or a rat catcher is around, which they should be (unless there's a mass sacrifice I don't know about haha). Your stolen drop them if they are killed OR sacrificed. C) Unlike ressers, you get rats from ANYTHING that dies withing 6" of hamelin or an RC, not just living/undead models or scrap in the case of the scavenger masters out there.

Like magic said, 7-10 is about normal for a game, but I've had as many as 20, and it can get a bit silly....lets not even start with how silly it gets with his Avatar around, hehe...30wd to snow storm from a bleeding diesease...yeah, that just happened.

It won't always be Tue best option, but if you find yourself running low on dropped counters, or they are dropping out of your range you can always use you (0) one turn to make some mindless zombies from scratch to turn into punks later.

You could always "monopoly table flip" mid game and hope their models aren't pinned.

Seems like fun, but if you're playing on a table with all streets and buildings, ie terraclips, then you might have some trouble. I mean, if the streets were narrow enough you could clog them with your own forests, but other than that, you would need to swap some stuff out.

So, I'm trying really really hard not to buy anymore crews, but Tuco and Alt Lilith look freaking sweet. I actually almost started with her waaaay back in the beginning but instead chose outcasts and ressers. So, I came up with a relatively cheap crew based around what models I like and the local meta which supports the use of her Avatar (yeah we got a lotta forest terrain at the LGC).

Lilith - 4ss cache

Avatar Manifest-2ss

Tuco - 7ss

Twins- 14ss

Waldgeist x2- 12ss

35ss, 4 cache total.

So, how do you think that would work? I'm not looking to be super competitive with her, but I don't want to lose all the time with a crap list, haha. We do have a decent amount of forest terrain so there can be all kinds of shenanigans with that too.

I'd also like to piont out something about Kirai's avatar.

I feel like if you're playing the "non-interactive" approach like I do or a summoning list, where JD and Ikiryo or maybe a shikome are your pirmary offense and everything else is just swirling around the whole time or being used to summon, this doesn't leave you with a lot of models once you manifest. If your shikome is alive, it will be that and JD/whatever else....so 2 models that you can warp to, because you'll need the seicshin close to you to buff your cb and heal/deflect. You almost need to run a less-seishin, more elite spirit list with her avatar, which I really don't think works all that well tbh, but I have yet to try it, so I'm waiting for the opportunity to do so. I guess if you ran striaght summoning it might be a little easier to get models out to ping off of...but then you'll likely be out of position and have to waste ap getting in the enemy's face before/after you manifest, and you'd probably want to do it earlier rather than later, because she doesn't do enough wicked dg to really turn the tide of a game unless it's very close.

As a side note, super dissapointed that they went with the book for her dg line and not her stat card.

Well yeah, thus the word "most" haha.

Not once did I read the rules that way.

In fact I thought it 100% clear that they worked the other way around.. But hey..

Same, but whatever, its not like there's always a whole lot of cheating fate turn 1 against most opponents anyways.