magicpockets

I can understand their frustrations and their reasons, but I find that my own tolerance threshold is far, far higher than theirs

...

Since I have started malifaux, just 5 months ago, I have seen erratas and FAQs produced, and plenty of evidence that wyrd are responsive to criticism

It might have been a long time coming for them, but obviously our relative positions are different.

I really like you Joel, just don't confuse tolerance with ignorance. You acknowledge our relative positions are different, so bear in mind Wyrd releasing a FAQ (once again with numerous issues in it, but that's another conversation) within the first few months of you starting Malifaux doesn't make them "responsive" - it just makes it a "coincidence".

You're new to the game, you're enthusiastic, you're competitive and you've bought into the game heart and soul - much like I did when I first started playing 3 or 4 years ago. But don't let that blinker you to objective reality, that way lies fanboyism *wink*

And for the record, it's more than three players who've shelved their fate decks. For example (in terms of people you know) aka_hazard who you met at the tournament in Cranfield is also on a very long "break" from the game - again because of Wyrd's inability to sort the rules out. And that's just one example.

---------- Post added at 09:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 PM ----------

but without a Hamelin player at our club we are currently seeing games going to the player with the greater skill and experience most of the time.

FOR F**KS SAKE!!!! Why does everyone immediately put winning with Hamelin down to his crew being broken and the player devoid of skill? This is a prime example of the problem Wyrd have created.

Oh well; for me this is a new game; I'll enjoy it. I'm looking forward to gencon to see how the competitive scene works out.

Two things I've noticed. There are a lot of people coming out of the woodwork who've quit or are quitting the game, and the biggest defenders of Malifaux and the system are people who are new to the game (the old guard so to speak seem to be quite "understanding" of the points we're raising). Ignorance is bliss yo...

I find it interesting that, except for a notable exception or two, this sentiment anecdotally seems to be strongest in the UK. Coincidence or is there a reason for this?

I think the fact we have very few (if any) cheering fanboys over here any more, even some of the people most supportive of Wyrd in the past have commented publicly or privately about their dissatisfaction with the game now (I'll leave the private ones to chip in themselves - you know who you are *wink*). There seems to be a much stronger "we love Wyrd" contingent across the pond, and let's not forget despite the UK's apparent position in the world, you have more people in California that we have in our entire country - so a simultaneous exodus form what is actually a small community will appear disproportionally "big".

Plus, there is of course a cultural difference between the UK and the USA in how we approach/tolerate things - we see the world through different perspectives (and I'm not saying one is better than the other as I LOVE certain aspects of the American outlook - just pointing something out we often overlook this day in age)

Pretty much sums up my view, but a lot politer than I would have put it. I think Wyrd have really dropped the ball putting $$$ before the game and it's players.

For my 2p worth, I'm retiring for an unspecified time although (like Ian I presume) I will dust of the minis for the odd tournament just for the social side. Hell, if it wasn't for the people involved in the Malifaux scene I think this would have come a lot sooner.

You mentioned that those numbers have stagnated, but whenever I go googling for them, I can never find hard sales figures or anything but guesstimates. Care to share your source?

Not sure on Ian's source but I know our LGS (bearing in mind we're one of the largest local Malifaux communities behind Harrogate afaik) has stopped stocking it because (rough quote) "there are no new players. Every game gets a burst of new players and then stagnantes with the core carrying it on. Malifaux is over"

I still see new players, but I find I'm missing a lot more old players on here and at events.

Does that mean everyone effectively now has scout?

I'm not saying you are an "evil powergamer" or anything of the sort

Am certainly not evil

And like I said, it was a GT so all bets were off. I'd never pull that in a friendly game (unless it was against UKRocky cos he deserves it)

I would hope that they could recognize that not everyone feels that way.

I do, but Wyrd wrote the rules as well as the fluff. If they don't match in your opinion you should be taking that up with Wyrd, not complaining about ME when I do something in a tournament which is perfectly legit.

Sorry if that seems ranty but I don't think it's fair to criticize me for playing fairly *wink*

If you want to but a hardcopy it might be worth waiting a few weeks as Rules Manual v1.5 will be out soon.

Book 1.5 I think *wink*

Or play on Terraclips which (despite having doors which are ingeniously too small for bases to fit through) have 1" markings on them. A little bit of trigonometry goes a LONG way then

Got to agree with the strat and scheme fixing. A couple of quick ones I'd love is to add to Grudge and Kill Protege that if the model that is being targetted is killed or sacrificed by his own band, it also counts to avoid too much chickanery. I'd also add to deliver the message that if no master is alive, you have to deliver it to a henchmen, if none alive, the highest costing model in play and so on.

Strongly disagree with this, that's half of the point of Malifaux. If I want to sacrifice my 10ss model to avoid you getting 2vp and play with a handicap that should be my decision. Also, me doing that to you is the risk you take for announcing the scheme for the extra VP - don't want the risk, you only get 1vp my friend.

^^ In that case you would, didn't know the wording was that precise

Its a game and we all understand that.

It has a rule system.

But, many of us are simply attracted to this particular game because of the fluff and the better than average support of said fluff by abilities, rules and winning conditions for the game.

Its a tough stretch to see the rationalizations for why a given master is going to kill themselves rather than have a message delivered or a relic stolen from their person, so it "feels" stupid.

The efficacy of what schemes we take in tourneys or whether its a useful tactic are quite besides the point for someone like me.

I could see not getting deliver a message or steal relic if the opposing master simply ran off the board because I think that THAT would actually fit not only as a valid tactic, but also thematically with the intent of REALLY REALLY not wanting to lose that relic or have some crazy message delivered.

But the idea that I can be standing in the middle of the board surrounded by enemies and just go "POOF! I am dead and the relic has become ethereal!", is just silly to me.

Arguing about it does not make it sound LESS silly. It just further drives home the point that some of you like the rules as they exist.

That's fine. Still sounds silly and did to the OP, obviously

Giant killer teddies, children with carving knives, undead hookers.... and you want to label a master killing themselves to avoid a scheme "silly"? Welcome to Malifaux sir, take a seat - it's going to be a bumpy ride

---------- Post added at 10:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:23 AM ----------

Well, if you did spell it out at a tournament I'd have to give you an actual warning for insulting the judges. *grin*

Nothing a few beers can't solve *wink*

Any rat within 4" of an activating rat (not just the initial activating rat) has to activate at the same time a la companion. It's very rare you get more than one or two groups of rats activating

^^ You're preaching to the choir with that mate

Because Voracious Rats says no models can be summoned other than rats, you don't need to get a rat for it to come into effect

^^ Exactly. And as for the "impossibility" of schemes like Kill Protegee (mentioned above), can I just remind you you don't have to announce them. If you want the extra VP, you run the risk of someone making it impossible for you - that's why you get an extra VP

Play nicer opponents? If a player pulls that over here he gets a warning, if he does it again he won't find a game the next time he shows up. If he pulls this on one of my tournaments I give him an off-the-books warning. If he doesn't get the message he will probably win the tournament but doesn't get invited to the next one. It's all about player mentality, and a willingness not to abuse broken rules because technically you're not cheating.

How is my example (Levi/Collodi) playing broken rules? It was a specific opportunity that came up in a perfect storm of factions/strategy/schemes - if you "warned" me for that in a serious tournament I'd tell you to... well, I'm sure I don't need to spell it out.

Don't hate the player, hate the game *wink*

The more you stop to think about it, the more masters there are with some very effective tactics against a standard Hamelin crew. I begin to wonder if he really deserves his reputation.

Read my sig *wink*

EDIT: I just changed my sig so, erm, ignore this

...semantics...

No

.....wrong game term and incorrect advice....

^^ Personally this feels too complex for what will be an errata - I still stand by "rats cannot activate on the turn they are summoned" as an elegant fix to the rat swarm problem

This is pretty much my point. I've played miniature games for about 20 years and I think the general Malifaux mechanics are great, intuitive and fun (my only main gripe is with the use of the same word for multiple meanings i.e. attack...). However, I was thinking about attending a tournament of Malifaux at some point as at the moment I generally play with two mates for a bit of fun, but after reading this I don't think I ever would. If the game, on a competitive level, encourages a player to set up their pieces on the table only to perform one action and then remove their pieces from the table so the game ends while their ahead, that doesn't sound like a fun way to spend an afternoon... as you said.

To use a different analogy to the chess one, it's like going to play baseball, batting first, hitting a home run, then taking your bat and ball and going home a "winner".

Anyway, I don't really think it will affect me at all because if anyone in my gaming group was to pull that they'd probably be "uninvited" to the next gaming session

It really depends on the tournament to be honest, there's very few hyper competitive tournaments where things like this would be deemed "reasonable" (GTs and Masters mainly). But it IS part of Malifaux I'm afraid, same as completing Treasure Hunt in one activation (with the Treasure back in my deployment zone) and 4VPs from Shared Destroy the Evidence in one activation.

Some times you play for fun, and some times you play to win. The way I see it is if you're playing to win, don;t be a d*ck about it and everyone's happy

You also dont have a second waif in there^^

Try leaving one of the riders and taking a canine remains, some SS and an SPA to turn into the last rider once Levi manifests.

Yeah, I did post the question in the new FAQ section at the time but it got conveniently ignored (even though other questions I raised at the same time got answered). As it stands, you can sacrifice your Master - which is (surprise surprise) most useful to Hamelin as he can now teleport across the board to Stolen almost at will.

And re Sketch, I've been told he's no longer with Wyrd.

You can't, and you wouldn't get a waif in 5) either

Could be worse, he could have killed her *wink*

On a serious note, Lillith has a hard time against Hamelin as her crew is heavily Black Blood based. That said, I'd be transpositioning the Rat Catchers out of the swarm and.... well, if I need to explain it any further

I really hate to tell you your wrong (as you invented everything about playing Hamelin and without you I'd never have won the UK Masters with him) but Damage Reduction flips prevent wounds, not damage.

Also, we've always played it (including against Ratty) that you suffer the initial wounds first (as it says "suffers") and THEN you do the extra wound form the blight counter. Not fun for you if you have Hard to Kill

For the record, everything else in this thread is correct *wink*