magicpockets

Please Wyrd no!

I think the current information that exists on how Hamelin plays and the problems that exist with him is not even in the same realm as the information that existed on LCB. There was clear and prevalent information that existed on problems with the Dreamer. I would argue that with Hamelin, it is unclear and prevalent. Let's get clarity to the problem before we take in the scalpel again.

Too much errata is a bad thing.

+0.9

I agree wholeheartedly that if Hamelin is errata'd based purely on people's "OMFG HAMELIN IZ SO BROKEN!" (mostly from people who have only "heard" he's broken) then it will be a very bad thing. There are a few slight changes you could make to rebalance him which were discussed a while ago, but even then no-one was arguing he needed a complete overhaul (his avatar does though - just wait until that hits the table on a widespread basis lol).

If I'm honest, if Wyrd really are reworking Hamelin I'd love to be involved in the testing etc - just to give a viewpoint from an in-depth Hamelin player (who no longer plays Hamelin so won't try to keep him unbalanced!)

---------- Post added at 11:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 AM ----------

when i first joined the forum i thought calmdown was just the resident troll, but i have come to realise that he actually knows what he is talking about, and he is entitled to his somewhat abrasive opinion as there is alot of substance and experience behind he says. so chooses to say things in an abrupt manner... at first i found that annoying, but now i find quite entertaining. actually quite enjoy his posts and how he argues this or that that i didnt think of myself.

Have to agree - I had a VERY different opinion of Ian until I met him, how he comes across on here is nothing like his real personality. He's very passionate about Malifaux and very, very, very good at playing the game and working out the details of rule interactions etc ([joke]second only to me in fact![/joke]) - the trouble is it comes across wrong on here if you don't know him. And, I hate to say it, but he's usually (if not always) right about stuff.

I didn't think you could take stuffed pigs without a Taxidermist - who is a Gremlin and unhireable by Hamelin?

And yes, Terror Tots can be awesome with Hamelin - with a single 9:masks+ you can have a mature on the board turn 2, and a second not long after - for ZERO net cost.

Also, don't overlook Sorrows with Hamelin, Doldrums (iirc - the paralyse spell) is awesome with Nix. And night terrors work very well too in certain schemes.

Wow, this could be Wyrd's new game - Fluff Wars

Oh yes, Pale Rider baby! cheers for this mate

Now all I need are wardens and Lazarus...

The only rules on proxies are in Gaining Grounds and as they're Wyrd models they're fine. You'll only have an issue if your opponent really objects to it

That action, you test for every AP one at a time

^^ Just to add you don't need to be linked to use mimic or emotional trauma.

To be fair, I personally don't think this is such a bad combo considering the DG costs 8ss and each Sorrow costs 3ss on top - and if the DG goes down (which is quite easy if you focus on her) in a heavy Emotional Trauma list then EVERYTHING goes to sh*t for the Pandora player.

I'm not even sure if I'd agree with Dementia being changed having used it a few times and it working against me as much as for me! Although if it isn't RAI then it should get a little nip and tuck.

That said, I'd be surprised if they changed any Book 1 models now...

I personally feel Alps are still "usable" but that for every reason you'd have for taking them there's a now a better 3ss option instead. For example, Night Terrors (significant and faster), Sorrows (as their inflicted wounds stacK), Desperate Merc+1ss (best pointed model in the game) - or even spending the extra stone for an Insidious Madness.

Just to chip in with the most important piece of Malifaux advice - build you list for your strategy, opponent and schemes, not just because you like certain interactions. There is no "all comers" list in Malifaux that can't be refined to include better models once you know the strategy (et al) - and with Levi you have such a big pool to choose from it's good to stay flexible

+1. I would not have thought of that, and it's quite hilarious.

And that's the thing. Hamelin is the hardest master to beat not because he's "broken" but because it takes so much understanding of his abilities and thought on the opponent's part. I personally would never worry about an opponent putting Hamelin down against any of my other crews because I know him inside-out, whereas conversely I worry about Kirai because I don't know and understand how she works properly.

I still think he needs toning down, but most of it is (unfortunately) L2PN. I just get the feeling sometimes that some people find it easier to complain he's broken than spend the time learning and practicing against him.

---------- Post added at 10:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 AM ----------

Admittedly all my Slaughter games against Hamelin have been with Pre-errata LCB, but there are so many situations where just killing off a few rats, doing your Schemes, and staying alive can easily win you this game. The Hamelin player will be the one stressing out about having to do stuff, this really lets you control the game against him, and that is something the Hamelin player won't usually have to do, and so will be more likely to make mistakes. Such as running after your models, and forgetting Schemes (or vice versa).

If you're playing against Hamelin, and they flip Slaughter. This either means they're 1 SS down (to reflip), or you're going to find it easier to deny them some VP.

Can I just point out for those who don't know the UK meta, Tim (Oshova) is part of my local club and the vast majority of his games against Hamelin are against me. So his comments aren't based on playing a new/poor Hamelin player or anything - so they're a real good barometer

Adam - How do you propose a change so Hamelin can physically be beaten in slaughter?

Don't get hung up on my SS Factory and the mythical "30 soulstones" (it's not that high) - Hamelin goes down REALLY easy in slaughter, it's just a way for him to try and even up the odds. People seem to have adopted my idea as a definitive way for Hamelin to win slaughter, it really isn't - it's the strategy he really struggles with and the ss factory method just helps him deal with it.

1. Bear in mind you have ridiculous activation control

2. Hamelin has only himself through which to achieve schemes (usually he'll take Gather SS though)

3. Hamelin has only himself to stop you achieving schemes

4. Hamelin has no models to sac to cast his spells (and if he summons a stolen he'll likely be left with a rat which you can kill)

4. It takes Hamelin three turns to get rid of his crew (in which time even Rasputina can get a bead on him)

5. If you get a single rat (from your own models) within 6" of Hamelin you have your entire army to get points from it

So, get over to him, let him activate, kill a 2/3ss model within 6" of him and then go to town on the rat. Easy.

[Craig I hope you don't mind me saying but this is a prime example of Hamelin "misinformation" - people think he's uber broken because they've heard that (in this example) he can't be beaten in slaughter and that's not the case at all. In fact, I'd be surprised if anyone who had actually played slaughter against Hamelin felt like it was impossible to win]

RM Pg28:

Governor's Proxy Card:

As I read that, and in the case mentioned, the Hooded Rider is the "Model killing this model", and as such he generates the WP->WP duel. This would make the hooded rider the attacker and the Proxy the target. (even though its the proxy's ability). As such, I2I would not trigger, but the Hooded Rider would win a tie.

Not sure how the official ruling will go, but that's how I read it.

That's how I've always seen it played.

You sir, can have an "Awesome" badge. I need to play it again now!

Awesome, and yes I'd love more!

I really struggle to get A&D to be worth the money in a low ss list

It seems like magicpockets even agrees the biggest Hamelin hurdle is knowledge (which is hard to accumulate because of how frustrating it can be to play against Hamelin)

100% - even in my just started thread on how to beat Hamelin I thinks there's enough info to reliably give him trouble. The fact no-one has ever (disclaimer: to my knowledge) suggested die or discard card triggers against his crews is a prime example - that's one of the best ways to take his crew down, but because it's a "different" approach it's overlooked.

Exactly -- and not to dominate this thread or take this up as my personal cause or anything, but people overall don't seem to be playing Hamelin and yet I feel he's right under LCB (a commonly played Master) for requests for errata. I really want to understand why.

1. People first play against Hamelin

2. They lose because they don't understand how to beat him

3. They speak to people or come on the forum where they hear Hamelin is broken

4. It's easier to agree Hamelin is broken rather than workig out how to beat him

5. They also start telling people Hamelin is broken

6. Person who's never seen Hamelin played hear's he's broken

7. That person "learns" Hamelin is broken

8. That person maybe plays against Hamelin

9. They lose because they don't understand and it reaffirms that Hamelin is broken

10. They come back on the forum and confirm he is broken

11. Rinse and repeat

That said, I think he does need toning down - just not totally Cuddling

You are in a unique position here because your opinions are already out here for all to see. I see a lot of other people saying Hamelin needs a fix, and I haven't heard a peep from them why or heard about any games they've played with/against him. Obviously you have played plenty of games and have your own (valuable) opinion. But I'd love to hear some support from other people who want a change. They should be able to back it up.

I more meant it in the sense that it starts people arguing, not that other people shouldn't have a view

To be fair, there's some great threads on this with people who disagree with things I suggest and that could be a good starting point - I'll try and dig it up. In fact, I *think* we did a good job of reaching a consensus about some changes which could really make sense on this. My issue is that once you learn to play against him he's not as bad as people think - more WTF than FFS

With those answered, what do you feel is broken about Hamelin?

Oh no......

As Sketch has confirmed they're looking a rebalancing Hamelin I wanted to politely suggest that his Avatar be included in that before it is released. Frenzied Piping has previously discussed issues (i.e. you can't practically use it) and whilst the idea is nice, the combination of Crippling Plague, Poxed Servants, Contagious Eruption, The Gift of Contagion, Piper's Swarm and A Tyrant's Judgement is insanely brutal - especially if you start to stack, kill and resummon rat catchers to get multiple Kill All Rats in the mix. It's a 20" Diameter circle of instant death for the entire enemy crew.

Please take the above feedback as constructive, and please tread carefully with my very expensive collection of Hamelin models....

To be honest I've only briefly thought about it and not played Malifaux for a couple of months due to work (hence the lack of updating my three threads on here). My gut feeling is it will make a difference but there will still be some balance issues in the match up.

And re Bette and SS Miner, I was a big supporter of the change and am glad it happened. It does change things, but only to the point of making them fair - we all agreed what we'd found was a hole and not a "strategy" so to speak. My gut is Bette is still a great include and I'll likely be running her still out of the waifs, but I think we'll be seeing much less of the SS Miner now.

I'll try an get a game in with Bette as she stands now and try to report back. Trouble is finding the time (to put it in context, at work we've signed off more revenue this quarter than we did in the entire year last year - that doesn't leave me much time to get to events and tournaments really)

What do you think to the changes?

I'd presumed that was a Terraclips promo because of the logo. Does that logo appear on anything else that relates just to Malifaux? If so - colour me excited!

Mike

+1

I'll put this in my diary. Please can I play Hamelin partnered with Dreamer on Sunday?

Just to say this has turned into a really great thread to read through. I was worried at first it would degenerate into "OMFG dreamer iz broken" but nice job everyone

Before final ruling is made on this I'd like to add a comment that this can lead to abuse with Widow weaver. Sacrifice a 8-9 point model for 6 counters, would give the widow weaver enough counters for a Teddy & 2 left over for further summoning, either a second teddy (rare limit) or 2 more Wicked dolls.

You're right, but I don think it's too much of an issue as a lt of crews can get 3 scrap for 5ss

What specifics of bury would you change?

Thats an easy one(but not the point of this thread). Buried models should still participate in the closing phase.

Agree very much with this, despite my fondness for abusing Bette and SS Miners in Levi lists. Also, I think all burying should be like Bette's, you cant unbury a model the same turn that you bury it

My solution would be to make Frightening Dream unbury only non-Master Nightmares. The Dreamer would need to use Nightmare Friend instead to bring Chompy out, and the Daydreams would need to use Call Nightmares or Change into Nightmare. You could still do a version of the Chompy sling, but it would require sacrificing a Daydream every time, which seems like a decent balance.

That is a really good idea.

+1 This is a very elegant option imo