magicpockets

Sorry to hear you're not happy with this, but it is part of Malifaux gameplay. In the recent ETC in the UK I took Levi with Collodi in shared deliver a message and in turn one killed Levi so my opponent couldn't deliver the message (as you can't do it to an in crew Henchman), then used Collodi to deliver the message to Kirai, and then - as he had Betrayed by Spirits where he had to kill Levi or Collodi with a spirit - used the rest of my marionette activations to kill Collodi (and then the Marionettes got sacrificed).

Not a fun game of Malifaux for sure, but with 4vp in the bag and him only able to get 2vp from his last scheme, that's the big leagues I'm afraid. *wink*

Might look at MTG, but with the new 40K rules coming out....

He's blatantly not meant to be played that way, just another "miss" by Wyrd in the rules that shouldn't be exploited outside of hyper-competitive tournaments (where anything goes) unless you're a douche.

And for multiple sacs, don't forget that when you sac a Stolen it drops a rat which you can then sac in your next AP without reducing your model count.

^^ I toyed with it, but then decided I'd go Viks, Raspy or Nico next. Then I made the best choice and stopped playing for a while

It's interesting, don't you think, that you can admit you had the wrong opinion about gremlins, but not about Nicodem? Also, I am unsure if you are using Nico as an example (as I did) or as a specific case.

Thing is, I'd never played against Gremlins before I'd seen them and had paid little attention to them as far as theoryfaux goes. With Nico, I've seen him played many times and by a lot of different (and good) players so feel I have a more rounded opinion of him, hence my comment (for the record, same with Rasputina - she can be goodish, but not "top tier" good).

I'm one of the first to admit when I'm wrong and will do if I ever meet a Nico player who blows me away like Spiku did, I'm just not holding my breath. *wink*

Now, if you want an under-appreciated master - let's talk Perdita...

I don;t have a dog in this fight, but it was ruled that the Marionettes have to go before the doll you (0) in. If search worked I'd find you the ruling *wink*

Hm, 1 Ap would be ok, but i have to spend 2, one for summoning and one for abandoned soul to get the cards. Ok, and a free rat.

But this seems be a a personal playstyle thing, i hate sacrificing even a rat (stolen are ok) for Hamelins spells. My opponents know what to do, and my crew becomes smaller every turn even if i dont reduce it by myself.

I'm guessing a hint of being pedantic here *wink* - you know I was simply contrasting the thinking that a Stolen costs 3SS with the thinking that a Stolen costs 1AP. And, if you're not sacrificing your stuff you're not playing Hamelin properly (and that isn't a playstyle thing, that's how most of his abilities and spels work)

Is Nicodem balanced against all the current models in the game? Yes, and this has been proven by Nicodem players who see the proper combo's and get them to work. Can Calmdown (as an example.. could be Nix or anyone else) see those combo's? Apparently not, because Calmdown (or nix... etc) sees Nicodem as weaker than other masters and in need of changes to balance him.

Okay, I agree with this in part as we (including Calmdown) thought Gremlins were crap until we met Spiku. But I doubt there is a case for Nicodem being as balanced as Hamelin/Collette (for example)

Once per Crew per turn, might be alright. But when you have so many models that can cast it (and seeing as Skeeters can only cast it once a turn anyway), then Once per turn doesn't seem to be a big enough change. Or maybe, reword it so Skeeters can't cast it. You're going to be more sparing with Somer's wounds than you are with Skeeters' wounds.

Trouble with skeeters is you don't ave the wounds to do it properly as they have 3wds (bar the odd heal/rat) so can only make you drop 2 cards. Once per turn per crew may be an elegant fix.

I find it very interesting that the only negative change on your list for Lilith is that her defense is lowered by one point. She does however gains the ability to charge or strike models without having line of sight. To me this seems like an improvement overall. Why improve a model which UKRockys claims is currently wrecking your tournament scene. The Comp Pack has her SS cash essentially reduced by 3.

Similarly you have the Doppelganger being reduced in effectiveness by weakening ill-omens. The Comp pack has the Doppelganger as being reduced in price by one SS with no other changes making her better.

I was under the impression that the UK comp scene had a general consensus on what changes should be proposed.

There is no general consensus other than that by all trying to "fix" the game individually at this stage we'll minimise bias and find improvements between us.

A car company improves every year's new model so that people will want to upgrade, why should Nathan, Eric & co deny themselves income?

And a car company immediately obsoletes their older models by replacing one model with the new.

We wouldn't want to play that way.

Yeah, but if I buy a car that doesn't work properly the car company fixes it...

We're extremely proactive in a way that would clearly surprise many of the critics that pop up on our forums.

We discuss and fight about a lot of stuff, often before anyone even mentions a problem online. Then, one of the oppositional Devs will say, "If it's a problem then why has no one brought it up online?" and then, weeks later, when it does, the first Dev will copy the link and say, "Told you!" and then go "na na na, poopy head!"

The problem for those online vocal critics is, I think, they want rather immediate gratification to a problem they perceive with an exact fix that they perceive is not only the best, but sometimes the only correct fix. But then, we'd be machine-gunning errata, all over the forums....

Instead, we first acknowledge a problem - the scope of the problem, then discuss how best to fix it. Then, how to address the fix and present it. Clearly, we really cannot just throw an errata out on the forum willy-nilly any longer. Then a different set of critics say [justifiably] "Oh noes! You cannot expect me to find every change in every thread! Wyrd changes everything all the time! It's unplayable!"

It's hard to win.

So we compile and we test and then we roll out a comprehensive change and a different set of critics complain, "It took too long. My playgroup gave up because Misaki's "Wind" irritated us."

I adore what you do for Wyrd and the world you've created through the fluff, but this reply smacks of hyperbole. Firstly, most of the changes should be quick to make (skeeter loops/stitch counting for vp) and don't need time (let alone YEARS of PT), secondly I personally don't agree that it's reasonable for you guys to claim PT time issues for fixes for stuff we've already given you money for when you can PT a book full of new stuff in a few months.

Secondly, people talk about meta and it's impact on the rules - yet that's how erratas are made are they not? And they're metas without the "let's break stuff" players in them, which is where I worry Wyrd uncertainty comes from - you guys should be listening to people like Calmdown and UKRocky and paying a LOT of attention to what they say (and me for Hamelin obviously ) - and be seen to doing so rather than "nothing here is new, we've identified these issues, we'll fix some in the upcoming x years" (seriously, your post basically says that Wyrd see this stuff first and are aware of the issues. If that were true 1) the problems wouldn't be there in the first place as you'd have fixed them before going to print, 2) you'd make correct fixes instead of Alp/Nekima fixes, and 3) you'd be able to make changes quickly rather than years later). You guys relly need to accept its cool that the Dev team aren't the best Malifaux players out there - none of us expect you to be, hell no one cares that Nathan and Eric don't even play Malifaux.

Re the current climate, whether I agree with the idea of one person trying to fix everything or not, these guys should be being snapped up by the Dev team (informally, i obviously don't mean being hired) rather than having to have back door chats with (now ex) Wyrd employees about their views. They do know what theyre alking about (mostly lol) and they have PASSION for making Malifaux better. But unfortunately one of either politics, indifference or arrogance is stopping that from happening - all of which get in the way of what we all want, fixing this damn game. Instead, you gus have now let the rot set in...

Collodi is great for some strategies, and not as great for others. I imagine that's part of the intention to having 13 strategies to pick from (26 if you count shared vs individual) before moving to Story Encounters.

Yeah, but you pick encounters before you pick crews.....

Seriously, the game is all about asymmetric encounters from the start. Everybody who made an informed choice to start playing it, knew it beforehand. Those who didn't bother to do their research have no right to complain.

Imbalance, broken crews and one sided games were a design decision? Wow, just wow. And to dismiss people who want Malifaux to be a fun, balanced game as irrelevant - has your account been hacked? You're one of the LAST people I'd have expected that type of response from...I honestly don't know what to say. And people are thanking you for this post? It's a sad, sad day....

perhaps make the masters known before hiring the crew.

We did this at the ETC and it definitely helped, but not to the point of me going "I'm taking Hamelin" made my opponents accept the imbalance in the game

Because it is one thing to fix Alp Bomb, Dreamer turn-1 teleportation or Hamelin's rats, and another to introduce a comprehensive set of changes focused around bringing down all the models closer to average.

+1

But doing something is better than doing nothing

A little bit of patience is all thats really needed - wait till after Gencon, when things start to quieten down and the new folks get up to speed, and I can bet that a lot (if not all) of the problems will get sorted out.

Are you serious? 4 years to make an obvious change to Skeeters, 2 years to make an obvious change to Stitched together, a "fix" to Nekima which made her as popular as a 13ss paperweight, and STILL no sign of any changes Hamelin desperately needs to balance him out. And don't give me the "they need play testing" line - if Wyrd can PT an entire book in a couple of months, why can't thy PT this? Because PT new book = $$$, PT old book != $$$.

I'm glad to see people starting to take things into their own hands, maybe it'll prompt Wyrd to sort their priorities out. Vive la Revolution.

My main concern is I'm then not playing Malifaux, but a version of Malifaux modified by a few players. The win at all cost players will still be the same to play against, but just with slightly blunted 'tricks' we know about (and probably some new shenanigans we don't).

Dave, if you think Malifaux is fine as it is, why to you make it perfectly obvious that you prefer me not playing Hamelin against you or at your events? You know I think very highly of you, but you can't have it both ways.

Calmdown was using a pretty experimental Kirai list for the ETC. All the other 'famous' guys were using their regular gangs (Doxey/Craig with Marcanists, Adam with Hamelin etc).

Oi Dom! I played Somer and Levi over the weekend too

PS: Why do you keep calling that event ETC? It was a Team GT. There's no E in it?

Because it was the event I started which was the European Team Challenge, the name has stuck from there

I don't think the Lillith win at the Northampton tourny is all that attributable to Lillith being over powered,

It's never "all" about imbalance, but that doesn't mean there is no imbalance.

In addition, I know that Spiku Spiku beat the Lilith player 8-2 (with only Lilith staying alive with 1 wound and 0 soulstones) as well as Calmdown with Som'er, and didn't lose a single game that weekend.

Firstly Spiku is an awesome player, and in his hands Somer is über bent - especially as NONE of us have played against a crew like that before. Second, let's not forget Calmdown was deliberately playing experimental crews and in his game vs Spiku was running Nicodem (and didn't know about piglets Stampeding lol - he didn't find that as amusing as I did)

Now, Spiku, Calmdown and Pockets all think that gremlins are in need of fixing, but no effort to do so is included in the above pack.

We think they have a couple of bent things, but they don't need "fixing". I think the couple of tricks they have are what makes them competitively viable.

All his effort and posts

Kudos on everything you've done Craig. I might not agree with some of it but I think the more we accept there are issues with this game and that Wyrd aren't going to fix them anytime soon, the better the game can become. And for the record I'm happy to play at a comp event - with a comped crew (ie Hamelin) - to see how this can be refined. Best case it fixes Malifaux, worst case it tips the scales to different Masters and is no worse than what we've got right now.

And for those people (and inevitable fanboys) who think this is a bad idea, don't flame Craig (or Ian in the other thread) - get on to Wyrd to fix their game. If they did, none of this would be needed.

Sometimes spending Hamelins AP on cards is the best thing to do. And sacking a summoned Stolen doesn't cost you 3SS, it costs you 1AP. There is a big difference and when you're playing Hamelin its an important one - you can't think of summoned models in terms of SS cost, sacrificing them is part of his natural playstyle (plus you only ever need one Stolen anyway - if any at all)

First game with Hamelin.

Ryle: Look, a big target which does not come back! Blamblamblam. Doggie gone.

There are a lot of shooters which do 3+ dam per hit, so Nix is dead in 3 hits. If you cant activate him between for healing or hiding, hes toast.

Likely Ryle will kill him, like he kills everything else in the game. But Nix is without a doubt one of the hardest minions in the game to put down.

How many control cards does the average opponent (without extra card drawing abilities) have in the hand? 6 isnt it?

So how often does the average opponent plays a control card if you consider some of the cards are not worth cheating?

So, where is the monster card generating?

Hamelin's totem can net him one per turn and Hamelin himself can net two cards per AP. I often have 10/12+ cards in my hand during a turn.

Re it being too effective, think of it in normal game terms. Rats are a 2ss minion which are rightly easy to kill - but instead of letting opponents kill them all they're effectively doing is "killing" one activation. I think the compromise of then getting to activate them next time/getting new rats instead of removing them completely from play offsets their slight squishyness. Plus don't forget you're still getting models from other non-vermin deaths to add to the swarm.

Re making Kill all Rats a (2) action, I don't think this will solve the issue - the main source of pain I see is the odd rat that drops from dead models (especially during a rat swarm activation) which needs to be kept track of for activating and - of course - rats killing each other to stall activations. To be fair, I think the proposed change would solve the (0) issue anyway as the RC could keep up with the swarm but only use the action to "refresh" the rats (who would usually have taken a wound from Writhing Mass) rather than reactivate them.

The only issue I see is if someone kills one rat (or a low number) - you'd then have to decide whether to slow down to keep that rat within the VR aura, or leave it to fend for itself. But I kinda like that dynamic too if I'm honest

Also, in respect of fixing Hamelin, this thread is purely about the NPE aspect of the game which comes from cycling rats (for me one of six fixes I'd like to see) and by no means are we saying this alone will balance Hamelin - that's a conversation for other (of multiple) threads. *wink*

Would it not be easier to just reword the Voracious Rats so that it does not say summoned. Could not be placed either, so would need some other wording.

Then all you would have to say is that when something is killed within the VR range, a new rat is created but counts as having already activated on the turn that it appears. Hence it would get over the endless activations, and AP abuse as well, but still allow for rats to appear.

Something like....

Voracious Rats: When this model or a model within 6" of it is killed, one Malifaux Rat is generated in base contact with the model before it is removed from play. The newly generated Malifaux Rat counts as having activated that turn, though can activate as normal in subsequent turns. The model does not generate Counters of any kind. No other models can be summoned as a result of the model being killed.

I just think it's over complicating it again, a simple "cannot activate on the turn it's summoned" is all it needs to achieve the same thing

- Some light comp, so that 'filth/cheese/broken' etc. is either toned down or some such.

Def reduce the "cheese" *wink*

^^ Ahh cool, guess I got that from the same place as Stolen being Rare 3 *wink*

Re other feedback -

1. I agree it slows the swarm down, but I think it's fair if your opponents invest AP in achieving that. I kind of like giving people the option to spend AP slowing the swarm if they prefer, rather than not being able to do anything about it. In effect you're giving them a choice, slow the advance down and survive long enough to achieve your schemes or go for the lynch pins and kill the swarm before it gets to you.

2. I don't think inventing more rules/counters is wise as that's adding complication rather than simplifying it - increasing the NPE

3. Also, placing rats in the end closing phase could be difficult as you'd have to track/recall where they were generated or again create a new counter type. Again I'd worry this could add to the NPE

---------- Post added at 09:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 PM ----------

Definitely an interesting debate though now guys - so glad it's not been railroaded into the usual OP/broken thread

I don't know what I think about this.

Well thanks for the post anyway

---------- Post added at 07:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:00 PM ----------

I don't know whether it's simpler or not but this is a weaker cuddle than the originally proposed version since you can play with activation order in case you have some paralized Rats.

Btw MP's proposal is quite nice.

IIRC you don't get an activation if you're paralyzed, you effectively ignore the model when it comes to activating your crew. May be wrong though...

---------- Post added at 07:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:02 PM ----------

No disengaging, right, but they do count as possible targets for shooting into melee.

An idea: no activating for a rat guy if it originates from another dead rat. So no self-farming rats. No reseting the whole pack.

You get a new and shiny rat if you kill something that's not your own, or not rat, or it comes from a death of a Stolen/Hamelin/Obedient Wretch.

I think this would unnecessarily complicate it, and this is really about minimising the NPE of rats'r'us activations. Plus I like the idea of not activating the rat you get from a dead non-rat model - that mechanic in itself is unbalanced so this would help limit the impact of it.

was pretty even despite it ending up 6-2 (or something).

One flip and it would have been 6-2 to you or 6-2 to me iirc - hum ho. But not bad for "the worst master in the game" in slaughter against LCB and twins

NBM - I think it could be a complication, especially as you'll likely have an activation with the originating model first.

Kasin - I considered that and don't object to it (as it's the exact rule to use) but it didn't seem to "fit"

I've also expanded more on the reasoning in my first post

There is a difference between broken and OP. He needs 5 or 6 changes imo, but not a complete cuddle. And the rat thing is more about the NPE than anything else

Okay, I stand by my previous points about Voracious Rats aura, Nix's Emptiness Lure Malifaux Citizen being a spell etc, but how about this for a fix -

Malifaux Rats cannot be activated on the turn they are summoned.

Theoryfauxed this to death and it seems like it could have a big impact on the game. Both in terms of balance and NPE.

-- EDIT --

Okay, so some of the thinking behind this -

1. It stops multiple activations of rats which is one of the biggest contributors to the Hamelin NPE

2. Rats can still move 10" or 5" and attack with correct use of (0) abilities

3. It means rats dropped form enemy models can't activate same turn. This is quicker, avoids confusion in swarms when new rats join and need to be activated, and gives a little balance to the mechanic

4. It means opponents can choose to kill rats early in the turn to slow the swarm down or avoid being attacked by them. This feels like the right balance of losing models/opportunity when your opponent kills your models combined with the respawn of the swarm.

5. It stops rats killing each other to heal Nix/stall activations etc

6. It creates opportunities where the Rat Catcher is exposed without armour (+2) as the swarm needs to move 10" forward, then he'd activate and move/kill all rats (to give the rats their wds back from writhing mass). This avoids the constant armour (+2) from rats move / RC moves / rats move again.

7. It stops things like Black Blood having unintended consequences against Hamelin (the amount of times I've taken down twins with rats because they keep respawning from damage they incur via Black Blood)

Let me know what you think guys

Quick update, sorry it's taken so long.

Day one I pretty much ran Somer all day (having stuck his avatar together during the first game) and rather than going just for the win I wanted to try out his Avatar and using the pigapult as more central to my crew.

First game my opponent played Hoffman and, as I didn't take Rami, I wasn't expecting much to say the least! Fairly uneventful game overall with the only really standout bits being Raphael killing his Peacekeeper (I love Raph) and Somer pushing Hoffman off his objective. From a learning point of view, it's the first time I've seen the downside to the pigapult as it cost me the game - I was planning on using the pult to fire three turns of models up the board, but I managed to fail EVERY defence flip I made. Hum ho...

Second game was shared Slaughter (I think??) in which I made good use of a slop hauler, skeeters and stuffed piglets from the pigapult. That amount of blast damage is insane lol

Played Dave (Clousseau) in the third game (Treasure Hunt against Hoffman). Wanted to try the pult again so built my crew around that rather than specifically for the scheme, and it went "okay". Obviously Hoffman sent a Peacekeeper up the board for the Treasure so I had to write that off, and then Ryle one shot the Pigapult with some lucky severe flips. Only redeeming aspect was Raph (again) one shotting Ryle with a Red Joker (bwhahaha).

Last game I can't recall at all at the minute....

Overall I found I was getting to grips with Somer and I could see how his avatar works, and if I replayed the tourny with a "out to win" list I think it could have laid down a lot of hurt. I'll go to an event over summer competitively and try to win

On a side, I did run Somer competitively over the weekend at the ETC and only lost shared slaughter against Dreamer/LCB by a card flip! And that was against Oshova who is one of the best LCB players in the country - so definitely starting to get it all working

Re the two pults, they're situational but I find in schemes where the opponent is coming towards you (especially slower crews) they're great for dropping a LOT of damage onto them as they advance turn one and two. Then you can sac them with skeeters to give Somer two cards and reduce your effective cost of each pult to 2ss.

I'm very much taking the foot off the gas with Malifaux now, but if I get chance to run them again at any point I'll be sure to post it up for you guys

Woo! Go Timmy!

Do you want to swap with Adam at the Team Challenge?

Im more than happy to step down, only coming because I committed to it and don't worry, I won't be dic*ing around with crew selection next week lol

Re the event, another brilliant job by Dave/Clousseau and kudos to Joel and Tim for their wins. Also, great to meet so many new "not regular" (irregular?) faces - by far the est thing about this game is the people/community, and that was shown again this weekend. Thank you everyone who came.

A couple of questions though:

My two common opponents play Ressers and Archanists, how do those factions deal best with the Hamster? I'd be playing to have fun, so they won't need to worry about me exploiting anything or throwing unfathomable numbers of activations at them, but what's tricks can I suggest, or which of their masters will stand the best chance.

Also, it's my impression that once a player knows how to stop the Hamster the game kind of flips sides, and suddenly I'll be the one with a :Confused_Puppet: face, banging my fists on the table and rolling on the floor crying. Is that the case? Or can the Hamster protect himself against standard tactics to shut him down: I'm concerned that if I get him and we talk through everything he brings to the table, we can establish how best to defeat him, but I'll just be shooting myself in the foot.

I wouldn't worry about this, I've played Hamelin competitively a long time (and won UK Masters with him without losing a game in the event) and whilst people can learn to play against him, he would never become disadvantaged by that. He's one of the most competitive Masters in the game imo.

Sure there are negatives about every master that could be said.... just I guess not the same extent as Hamelin. Being Insignificant doesn't take you "out of the game" as such though does it. It just means you don't count for schemes, etc.

Which whilst a pain at least you still have that model to do stuff with.... not as bad as a dead model.

Exactly

As I said, Terrifying and such would seem to be able to screw around with Hamelin crews as nothing about them makes them special against such effects.

What would a Hamelin vs aSeamus be like...

Terrifying isn't too much of an issue - soulless models ignore it (but obviously not anathema) and rat catchers can do Mouldy Cheese and then Kill all Rats to replace the fleeing rats with new ones. It's an issue, but not a huge one.

To give your finger the precise direction in which it should point, I am the sole reason and fire-starter of almost all Hamelin negativity.

I quickly found out the best and most powerful strategies and used him to just ream the competition into the fetal position.

:facepalm:

Let pigs go out and attack stuff, then Sooey! them back to fire the pigapults - now there's an idea *wink*