Natty

If you KNOW you're fighting Perdita, I'd think The Dreamer would be the way to go. Fog aura and dropping nightmares right on her crap means their ranged attacks are useless and they will have to take tons of terrifying checks.

Activate the Dreamer's ability to give nightmares terrifying, and then drop 3 totems and a couple teddies in the middle of the Ortegas and watch them have to make several moral duels per model. Stubborn only works on defense and there is no defender in a terrifying check.

Also, if you bury and unbury your whole crew the next turn, it will mean that any model that didn't run away has to test again.

You just have to worry about Perdita herself and it is basically a coin flip to give her -defense flip with the Dreamers spell (assuming you both soulstone it).

the Nurseloco bomb does ignore pandora's defense.

Wasn't Papa Loco changed so that it is Rst: Df?

She might have 2 defense, but you can still blow a soulstone and probably have it miss you since Papa's cast total obviously wont be soulstoned and he has a low cast.

I wouldn't rely on that to hurt Pandora.

@ your Pandi Question...

Hmm think not... because her Tricks are the Way you play her and that is exactly the thing your opponent would not like...

She always has to use her dirty tricks... because if she does not.. you can leave her out...

I suppose you could just decide to never activate the fall back trigger since it is optional. She would be a little underpowered though.

Really it is the fall back trigger that people hate. She is a little annoying anyway with all the movement and wp duels, but seriously, it is making everything on the table fall back that no one likes.

I have gotten a Pandora starting hand with 3 high crows, showed it to my opponent, and we just restarted the game. It was over the second I saw those three crows.

Things like Sorrows, Alps, Stitched Together, and Madness are pretty much 100% reliant on wp duels. These are also support level models (except for Stitched who can serve as your main damage dealers) and should probably not be used to make up the greater % of your SS. Models like Teddy, Kade, Coppelius, Lilitu, and Lelu have some nice Wp effects or augment others effects and still maintain a high level of danger that does not rely on Wp duels. Melee focused models are those like the Rider who have no Wp based effects and really have no way of capitalizing on other models Wp effects. Those are the ones I think don't use Pandora's potential.

Ahhh, there we go. I think that is the problem. You think of melee focused models as total melee and no wp while I was thinking about them in terms of models that are mostly melee and do/don't have some wp stuff.

I think things like the twins would complement Pandora amazingly since they have wp stuff on top of their melee potential. Same with a lot of the neverborn like Kade who have wp duels but mainly are based off physical stuff.

So when I say to avoid total wp based minions, I mean to avoid stuff like Candy, sorrows, and alps. Definitely do NOT avoid the hybrid wp/physical stuff.

But again, I'm not saying that the complete wp duel based crew wont win a lot of games. But it would be terrible to sit accross from, say, an army that is entirely composed of stubborn Ortegas and have to go against a defense stat of 8 for absolutely everything you try to do. Or a crew with a lot of immune to influence models, and if they take out Pandora or move her more than 12 inches away, you can't hurt those models at all.

So my advice is about always winning 100% of your games instead of winning 90% of your games. A small but wonderful difference.

...and another thread I was enjoying ruined when my eyes were stabbed by oozeboss and his font/color choice.

Please, please, please post in a normal font and color. Pretty please? I would prefer to read a post in all caps l33t speak than a post in that hideous color terrible font weird size centered crap.

Think about it this way, would you want to play a game where the majority of you units activate, run double there move away from the enemy, then sit there unmoving the next turn? No. You wouldn't.

She adds a soulstone into a cast and can AoE an essentially unresistable fallback.

I have enjoyed the very little I've played with Zoraida and The Dreamer far more than any Pandora game. Sure, they aren't as powerful, but who wants to win every game with no challenge? It isn't fun. Give me a challenge please. I don't want to see that I've won before the first turn has even started just by looking at my opponent's master.

2. I noticed that Pandora seems to be kind of a hated model (by the opponents of course). Is Pandora unfun to play? Is she overpowered? Are people upset if they see Pandora on the field?

Yes, yes, and yes.

Pandora can be fun to play for the first two turns, but once the entire opposing crew is falling back it can get boring very quickly.

Most people agree that she is somewhere on the list of top 3 masters even if they don't agree where she is on that list.

No one wants to play against Pandora. For the same reason she is boring to play, she is boring to play against. The fall back trigger makes her boring boring boring.

I can't wait for the avatar version. All my hopes for ever playing Pandora again rest on them making a viable version of her without that boring and overpowered trigger.

Someone from Wyrd needs to read this post and think about making a Levi rider Avatar form. Keep that idea in the back of your brains for book 4.

Maybe Levi will be the fourth rider ? I know that everyone thinks the fourth rider will be Guild based, but maybe it will be Levi's avatar form ?

That is genius. Best idea I've heard on these forums in a while.

Then you can just field the 4 riders and no other models for a 30 point game. Sexy man. Sexy.

I have said this a couple times before, but I think Punk Zombies are one of the best point cost non-unique models in the game.

Levi can't throw around bolster undead like Nico can, but Punk Zombies are just plain amazing for their points.

Pandora + 2ss =D

Karn has got it. One spell and the other master falls back. You win.

Only thing that might beat it is Perdita + 2ss, and then it is a crap shoot and they both hide behind trees the whole game afraid to come out because the other one kills them in a single activation.

Pfffft.

I didn't like sorrows before they changed link, I obviously didn't like sorrows after they ruined link, and now I once again don't like sorrows after they changed link back.

Overrated model and not needed to win with Pandora. She is better off without them.

I still maintain that the mosquitoes are one of the best models (statwise, not lookswise) in the game. They only cost 2 points, let you force your opponent to discard basically their entire hand, and you can always make more of them. Make sure you get 4 of the mini's, but only start with 1 or 2 on the table and summon in more and heal them up to full and send them off.

Haha. I just found this picture on my phone. I totally forgot to share with you guys my amazing proxies for the daydreams, made out of yellow and red Tic Tacs.

But I would avoid all melee minions unless your playing for a theme (or if you like that style of list) because you really are avoiding some of her best synergies. It will work some of the time, but it's sorta like using a loaded rifle as a club =D

I always take the Doppelganger (that's a given), which, if the situation is right for offense, copies emotional trauma and a Wp based spell. The doppelganger can cause a lot of Wp duels. Also, I would probably take a Stitched together for the cover ability. He has more Wp duels too. That is plenty of Wp, the rest could be melee.

3. Models that cannot use counters, cannot pick them up (worth remembering if your opponent tries to pick up counters to protect them from your pig).

There were arguments about that. Lilith can't use blood counters, but she can pick them up. There were several threads about it and the rulings by the Marshalls weren't really clear. The two arguments about why she could pick them up were that she either #1: can pick them up because she can generate them, or #2: can pick them up because other nephilim can use them off of her.

Never really got resolved to my knowledge.

Regardless of why, however, the Marshalls ruled that she can pick them up. (It did leave unresolved the question of whether a Doppelganger copying an ability to generate counters lets it pick up that type of counters, but I've still yet to run into that in a game).

Sorrows are totally unnecessary in my opinion. I never take more than 1 and I have yet to lose with her (although I stopped playing her right before book two came out because I found her very boring when she makes everything fall back).

I'd strongly recommend taking physical damage minions to complement her Wp duels. If you start taking all Wp duel minions you are putting all of your eggs in one basket and risk facing a crew that you can't beat no matter how well you play. Pandora and the doppelganger will generate all the Wp duels you will ever need. Add on top of that insidious madness (I've never played with them but I'd probably include one if I played Pandora again) or a stitched together (seem awesome for the 4" obscuring) and you have more than enough Wp duels. You should fill out the list with Teddy/Kade or Silurids or any melee beatsticks that take your fancy.

Basically, take whatever melee minion you think looks the coolest. They all complement Pandora because what she needs (in my opinion) is melee support.

The colour, italic type and all that might look fancy and such, but it's a pain to read... Just saying..

Yeah, I stopped reading it a couple sentences in and then came down here to the replies to see if there was anything interesting being said.

I forget who it is that always writes in pink but I basically never make it all the way through his posts either.

This was at least very true with the original wording on link. Now with current edition of it as per the extra errata thread, only 1 model can be linked to a model at one time. So Pandora can only have 1 sorrow linked to her now.

They changed link again, check out Weird Sketches post today in the https://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16777 thread.

I REALLY can't wait for the new errata document. It is starting to get confusing for everybody.

(And the miniature itself is elegance made pewter.)

I love the doppelganger mini.

By the way, I never play games big enough to do this, nor do I hate my friends enough to do it, but someone HAS to try it for me and let me know how it goes.

also remember that with the new wording on stitched together, one the model is killed, they can no longer be buried or sacrificed either, so the only way to stop this is to somehow break up the pack with movement abilities or make them all lose a moral duel.

Most crews will have very limited models that can move the opponent around and very limited models that can cause moral duals. If terror tests are a problem, then save your Hamelin to obey the terror model to walk away from the bomb before it goes off, or make sure Pandora makes them fall back and then put the bomb out of melee range. Also, most models with terror have a huge damage line, so Pandora can kill them pretty easily with self loathing.

Remember, a model only has to make a terror test if it starts its activation in melee range or if it charges. So you can park close to the terror model, then walk next to it, then explode, and never have to make a test.

interesting idea, but big requirements, although that big games tend to be brawls and in those you could scratch Hamelin if you brought Zoraida.

Honestly, I hate the concepts of brawls. I've never played in one and don't really care too. This game just isn't balanced for them. All I do is see a billion different annoying un-fun combos when you get two masters together. I would much sooner play a 40 point, 1 master game than any 2 master game.

And come on, in a 40 point game (not unreasonable since we always play 30 or 35 here), you could do the bomb with 3 or 4 sorrows. That will basically take out a huge swath of the table.

It definitely isn't overpowered because you opponent will see it coming and it can get derailed. But if you play it right, and use Pandora to make any model that could stop it from happening fall back with her trigger, then it would be disgusting.

If it WAS a brawl, then just remember, you could take a second doppelganger!!!

Sorry for derailing this even further by the way Natty :S

Haha, it's ok. Like I've never been responsible for derailing a thread before?

Let him who is without sin make the first damage flip. (According the the gospel of Weird Sketch)

<edit> Oh yeah, and no, moving a sorrow will never move the linked Pandora. The ability says "After the model this model is Linked to completes a Walk Action or finishes its activation, Push this model into base contact with the Linked model." So they are both "linked", but only one has the link ability, and only one is affected by that line from the ability. Well, I'm 99% sure that is how it would work. They have changed link so much now that I am wayyyyyyyyyy not 100% on anything about it. <end edit>

Oh, and even if you don't want to do the whole thing with the sorrows because the game isn't enough points, any neverborn army (and not just Pandora) can still do:

Doppelganger

Stitched Together

Hamelin

Pere Ravage.

Use the Doppelgangers first turn to copy Explode and Unkillable. Then walk forward and blow up (giving yourself reactivate and taking someone with you hopefully). Then copy casting expert and/or fast and/or nimble, and move around blowing up even more.

Alternately, copy Pandora's push ability and Pacify and ninja around the field like that in between explosions. Also, Hamelin can be used to reposition the Doppelganger in between explosions.