izikial

the reason we want a change is because in any competitive environment Lucius will not win, its been said on hear numerous times that by trying to eek out every advantage you end with a master that requires more from a player than any othere master and gives you a 15% win rate

the collodi/dreamer comparison is because in the same faction you have masters who have a unique style but who use the same idea of minion power but win games.

in the literal sense dose Lucius work? Yes he has rules that make him not a rules nightmare.

can Lucius win? Yes but only realy when an opponent is new or uninformed. Wining from a gotcha moment is neither satisfying or honourable

but then you ask the more probing questions, is there any reason to use Lucius in either faction, no he is worse then all 12 othere masters

has he ever I placed top 10 in a competitive fixed master environment, no

has he ever been used by some one placing top 10 in a fixed faction environment, no

he is a mess of unsupported ideas

with the age old question of what dose this master ask of me. He asks more than any othere master in the game, compare this to his potential power and there is a huge disparity

1 minute ago, Durza said:

I like that idea, although with all those horror duels going around he could probably use something to clear paralyze, maybe an aura or action like the Freikorp specialist, call it "I'm not mad, just disappointed."

I thematicly like the idea that that would remove paralysis and give slow insted

we shouldn't be bored of hearing about how broken he is as he should have been fixed or at least a comment from wyrd saying "we know he is struggling and we are looking to correct this with a future releas" or "we think he is in a good place from internal testing and our data shows a roughly 50% win rate" or words to that effect, but insted we get nothing, leaving Lucius fans feeling unloved and I personally am tyred of going into a game knowing I have handicaped my self with more work for less payoff.

if they said we have no intended patch and are happy, I would be sad but at least I would know were I stand

and yes I know there are so many divers interactions that the next book is sure to affect him, but withought them recognising his issues I have no hope of him improving, as I said above, his emissary upgrade shows that wyrd arnt sure/dont want to do what is needed to fix him

the souring point for me is Tara, she was recognised as week so she got a fix for Karina and for the nothing beast, then she still didnt have good support so got a hench

I love wyrd as a company but I think they would benefit having some one doing public relations and getting answered to hot button topics, I'm sure they do read what we say, but we don't often hear feedback

love your reply eclipse.

I have bounced between all the factions and I always find something of putting and that's sort of why 10t makes sense to me so I can pseudo enter othere factions, I think I need to play shenlong as he is one I havnt touched and I think will let me unlock some more intresting facets of the faction

hello ninja's

controversial one today, are 10 boring?

I have played a fair amount of each faction and still (after playing on and of since book 1 1st ed) havnt clicked with a faction, I have favourite masters (Lucius and Tara) but cant settle on a faction this has led me to 10t the faction with a bit of everything.

but I digress, the "boring" part. So i have played a little with most masters and theory crafted the poop out of them and ended up un thrilled, not about power just in general

the reasons being

tainted aesthetic: I dont know why i dont get this with outcasts, but the fact Tha 6 other aesthetic are leaking in makes for some very clashing visuals and there for the main Asian theme is dulled

to consistent; all there pushes and plus flips are lovely, its sort of there thing. But it dose lead to a game with less highs and lows.

no big weakness; this is owing to the consistency again, when 10t tend to lose its less about a gamble and more they just made the wrong decision, a good idea in theory but when othere factions have luck it shines, in 10t its just nice

lack combos; I'm a magic player, and my favourite concept is taking a weakness and making it a strength for extreme value, 10t dont have intresting modles to do this with

topsy tervie masters; every other faction in the game has a faction design and keywords to use that are fixed giving them a tighter pool allowing for strong/more intresting design angles, insted of having a master who integrates with there crew, 10t masters tend to feel like they exist outside there crew, and any 10t master could be given the same crew and achieve similar results

so I'm expecting some disagreement with this, but I just felt very blarzay about them after using them, I thought they would bring together differant dynamics from there respective faction and insted felt like the masters got hidden in a wave of focus and plus flips

I think they need to start picking a direction and going for it, most emissary upgrades buffed 1 or 2 of the masters play styles, if you said to me what dose Lucius need? I would not Say a higher damage melee attack (something that could have been done just as easy by giving him crit)

they offerd him support by giving him another unsupported play style, I would guess the idea was to give an attack for changelings /dopples (sore subject) to copy for high damage but that's not a strong idea. If his emissary insted said gain a suit to issue command or frendlies in 6 auto pass horror duels, that would have improved an existing angle

generally performers, just the one, but withought it alot of his kit dosnt click with ten thunders.

has anyone tried merc freikorp specialist and a widow weaver and just not caring about failed horror duel's?

I know it makes Ss tight as that's the issue I'm having when making a list and its plinking for damage (although regen/emissary if you can afford it mitigate the damage). But I think there is potential there, the card draw would help Lucius too.

example list

Lucius, hidden sniper upgrade 2ss

widow 8ss

specialist 9ss (cant remember cost)

illuminated 7ss

illuminated 7ss

doppelganger (camo upgrade) 8ss

changeling 4ss

tot 4ss

49 ss total

tt brewmaster basically needs mercs to work, maybe Lucius dose to

also potential to use Johan to remove the conditions and changelings to use his hammer

26 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

The emmissary's card probably hasn't been printed so maybe you could fit in a line like "This model counts as a minion for friendly master's abilities" before they go for printing. It could either be a separate ability with a catchy name or baked into one of the others already on the card.  

 

Technicalities

"This model counts as a minion for friendly master's abilities"

I like that idea, I think put I on lucius' emissary upgrade to prevent unwanted future issues and it then applies to both emissaries

its no different in my eyes than Hoff and Ramos gaining construct and collodi gaining puppet

something that has been mentioned a number of times befor is riflemen should be in his box not guards

As much as I would love some changes I don't think much will happen, they had last book were they could have upgrade patched Lucius and didnt, this makes me think they are either happy with wear he is, or they want to do a change and cant figure out how, the former is more likely. It is a shame, you hear about all these people who play 1 master at a tornie and do great, and sadly I cant ever see that happening with lucius

not yet, that I'm aware of. I dont think any upgrade with a masters name on has come out after there book (except emissary upgrades), I think Lucius would be fine with it as he tends to not use all 3 unless your going for funky build like melee lucius

if they were to rework now would be a good time considering story events, but they either have to render old Lucius rules Lucius, and that would be awkward for people who don't have the book and are used to old Lucius, or releas a drastically dif modle and that would invalidate old Lucius modles

So I ask you this, if they were to "fix" him do you think they would get it right, or do you think they would be to gentle and not do enough or over balance and make him op?

I personally think wyrd is happy with him as he is and if they do anything it would be a 0ss upgrade

Lucius I widely regarded as the weakest or on of the weakest masters, this makes me sad as I love him

so what would I do to fix him. This is just my opinion and I'm willing to accept my suggestions are "op" but I'm just throwing ideas out there and I would love your thoughts on what to do

what do I perceive as his failings?

I see a few

card intensive: Lucius wants so many cards both for discards and there suites

Ss intensive: Lucius isn't capable of much withought suits and cards already being limited forces him into a Ss heavy play style

falls flat withought minions: Most puppet masters are still capable solo or are very good at keeping there crew alive, Lucius dose neith of those

stunted theme: almost every master has a strong crew theme and a box that supports it, Lucius dose not. from his crew box you normaly use 1 lawyer if that and his concept of mimics is just stealing from othere masters (candy, graves) and the guardsman concept I so dull

cramped design space: Lucius is trapped in a place of mediocrity as other masters do his stuff better (collet is a good lucius effectively, collodi and dreamer run minions better) and his unique elements are week/under expanded.

what would I do to fix this?

as wyrd dont want to errata or redo cards/ models we arnt going to change anything currant, so insted I have a few model ideas. I'm intending to strengthen lucius' theme while making him stronger. I will be talking about mostly neverborn modles as guild Lucius already a larger themed pool.

totems (4 ideas)

a totem that can mark an enemy so the next devils deal hurts the enemy insted

a totem with a lenny style aura possibly masks insted

a totem that cant be hurt by friendly's /devils deal (may be to strong but it would have week stats)

a totem that heals of passed horror duels

henchmen

I find it sad that Lucius dosnt have a neverborn henchman and that he cant do much with them, so below is 2 ideas for how to execute a Lucius henchman, both are mimics

1

a henchman that can shift into any minion/enforcer mimic (guardsman with an upgrade on Lucius), you place the modle next to it and then bury it. This lets you command your henchman and have access to what you need at the time. When not transformed it would be a manipulative stall price that can make an enforcer count as a minion for friendly's untill turn end. The shift could have a trigger on ram and on mask to give the created modle an aura that gives out the same suit. Summoned modle would not gain slow

2

a henchman that has a mask or ram aura (possibly the ability to swap from one to the other) it counts as a minion for friendly modles, it has an average to good attack with a ram trigger for heal and a mask for card draw. It can push 3" everytime a horror duel if preformed

so that's my ideas, as you can see my "fix's" push the health Sac for Ss and horror duel elements as they are the only real thing that's unique to Lucius. And fixing his suit issue but giving the enemy a counter to it. They may be to good or not enough but I'm just throwing out my ideas

thoughts? What would would you do?

What I see there role as is counter to there cost, I see them as first wave units to speed bump and allow your main force to schemes and lay down fire, but for a 5ss modle that is kinda costly for what you get

however they are near identical to rail workers (who see play) but they swap discards for + flips on attack and damage, to insted gain a ranged value, as I say I can see them taking the place of bushwakers in a mah crew if you don't want more roosters as you can have mi 6 range 9 gremlins with 2/4/5 damage who can close ranks and be adequate melee fighters

hi greenies

has anyone tried the survivors out yet, I havnt seen much chatter on them but they seem decent all-round, I get that there expensive (for gremlin rank and file) but they have some counter elements

scrap to give ressers less food

no charges to hamper neverborn or other melee builds

and they have some good master synergies

sommer/wong. Good first wave groups and with htk they can take 2 shots from these blasters

zoraider. She can obey them into position early to shut down scheme runners or block lanes

brewmaster. They can give poison, I know its on the precious crows but you don't pick what you flip, and brewies neg flips make there mi 5 decent

Ophelia can use them as mid range skirmishers, fire support then tie enemies up also a great hooch lighter target for young lacroix

mah. Nah makes mi better and these guys shoot with mi meaning she can buff them early game as harassers' and the later game as brawler, there armor and htk mean you have more time to get chores for on death effects or self sac

ulix .... Erm, I got nothing

thoughts? Anyone tried them? Do they ask to much? Is there no room in your list for them?

so were still stuck on this and basicly ask your local meta there consensus and go with the majority

ok, thanks, the debate got realy heated and then ended last time, an faq on it would be lovely, or just some one official saying what is intended

my personal belief is that its on the emissary upgrade, but I can work with either just don't want to be called out as playing it wrong

so I asked a similar question at the releas of shifting loyalties, I never got a definitive answers and ended up with 2 disagreeing groups

where is lucius' attack on the emissary card, is it on Lucius or the emissary's upgrade, the practical reasoning for this is.

1. Do changelings copy it from Lucius or from the emissary?

2. Can the dopple copy it (as its on a non leader upgrade) or not (as the upgrade gives it to a leader and she cant copy of leaders)

please help. I want to know how to play it

thoughts on putting the emissary in, in can remove conditions incase of acidental paralysis. Makes changelings for free ss. Gives Lucius a strong attack incase he has red tape out on a target. And gives healing to help give Lucius ss

I was just thinking that, I was thinking adding changelings for activations.

I realy like pathfinders, especially with Lucius, but I don't know if I can afford another mid to high tome user

I do suport the use of angel eyes, shooting into a fight Lucius is stuck in is great (and fits the idea of him gliding through the carnage with her bullets flying all around him, and she can be his hidden sniper) her self heal is great to make back Ss Lucius used

although this build dosnt use his horror duels much I still like a lawyer, htw on Lucius is nice and fees makes the double neg attacks of foes a real choice (attacking at - - and taking damage, against a manipulative model worth 4ss makes changlings quickly ignored

Apologies for the double post

double post