Zethal

Quite bluntly, doing this is a lot more work than folks tend to give credit to, and while it might seem easy enough to say 'snap, its this way', then the next person comes along and says 'well, you put the comma in the wrong place, so if I look at it from that angle, it means that I get to do THIS'.

Quite bluntly thats called editing, and it is a expected process of creating printed material. No one has requested instant perfection, just timely progress.

As for the veil of secrecy, seriously, if I announce something today, and tomorrow it doesn't happen, we get tore up pretty much by the player base

With all due respect that its entirely unfair sir, unless this is happening in areas of the forum I don't frequent, but it certainly not happening here or the rules section.

No one expects it to happen tomorrow, we do expect it to happen within a few months or at least told what is going on. We've been waiting for something and told it is coming, it's going to be great and we will hear about it soon.

I know that my group at the very least would of been much more willing to continue purchasing models and playing if we had been told, "We are working on creating a pocket size rule book that is updated with all the errata and and FAQ info, as we feel this would be of great use to our players."

You could even tease some of the art. Instead we heard nothing besides "soon" and due to that my group lost interest.

Then there are the ones who go for the throat each and every time, the rabid penultimate gamer who has decided that they have been done wrong due to one thing or another and by golly, virtual blood and vitriol will be shed before the day is over!

I sorry if you feel that is how I've treated you. I feel I've given you good praise on the areas you have done very well; your vision, models, balance and unique content. While I've certainly written more about the parts that I'm finding troublesome I've done it to to try and be clear about the problem I've having and give constructive feedback. Additionally because it is the one area of the game that is of great importance to, at the very least, my area. Resulting on a growing distaste for Malifaux; once that started happening I started came here and tried to get my concerns heard.

Quite bluntly, the Rules Handbook is there to get all the rules in one place, errata'ed, faq'ed, indexed, and folks have been asking after this for a bit, we have listened, not just another 'ooh, lets bend them over the barrel and make money'.

I'm not suggesting the rulebook is a bad idea at all, in fact I've agreed it is a good one. I much preferred the little rulebook that came in some supplemental product for WHFB 7th Ed. That has not been is is not my criticism.

The PDF is our way of getting this information out there as well, releasing the CORE rules by the PDF (so for anyone reading between the lines there, that means the content from the Rising Powers book won't be available in the PDF unless something has been tweaked to affect the whole of the rules system), and of course, to keep in mind for people that wish to print it and the like, to strip out some of the larger pieces of artwork, etc so that it isn't a bear to print.

This is my criticism.

Why is the PDF not including Rising Powers? Will it include the FAQ and Errata for Rising Powers? If not, do I need to purchase the Rules Marshall book to learn about those proposed changes?

How long has the errata and FAQ been done? How long ago could you have released that information while you continued to work on layout, art and printing of the book? If the errata is just being finished a couple days before print, why was the focus on the layout, art and getting the new book published rather than creating a easy document for us to reference to play your game? Unless players are closely following this forum they are probably completely unaware of many of the editing mistakes within Rising Powers. I had to mention to my group that The Stolen are not supposed to be unique and then I had to find the thread to prove that was the intention. Why is that information not readily apparent for new players coming to the forum? Why are you expecting me to purchase a book that contains the updated rules, when I've already purchased the first two and this is largely you fixing the mistakes made in the first two? What does 'core rules' mean exactly, besides the LoS, Size, Elevation, Shooting into Combat and other aspect of basic functionality does it also include all of the errata that has been added to the models in the first book? Or do I need to purchase your book to get all of that nicely in one place?

I don't see how the release of this book being anything but a good thing.

Aye, looking back I was probably a bit frustrated in when I phrased my opinion of it. While I said it isn't a bad thing, my intention was to imply that it was a good thing.

I have just one thing to say to everything you complain about. Next time write Wyrd a letter. Seriously.

Shrug, this was an easy medium to communicate through. I expressed my displeasure, suggested various things to help improve the way the function and did so while watching my play group disappear due to frustration with the company. I feels like it all got ignored and that this promised FAQ and errata was a wonderful way to string us along to purchase content that should of been free a couple months back.

There probably won't be a next time. As I doubt I'll purchase anything else from Wyrd. But good luck to them, and I'm glad the rest of you are enjoying the game.

I know that from Wyrd's perspective losing any customers is bad, and I don't want to sound too offensive either (some degree of offensiveness isn't bad at all ), but do you seriously believe that a group of players which falls apart because they cannot house-rule a couple of contentious rules for 3 or 4 months actually constitutes a "community"?

Or perhaps we should break with the silly internet tradition and actually give up on using them hyperboles?

Not hyperbole at all. My play group was very excited about Rising Powers. That it was easily the largest thing to anticipate at Gen Con and to get what was printed was unfortunate. The now many months of lack of communication and seeming neglect to fix this problem, the poor attention to forum questions, the general poor way errata and the FAQ have been handled have left my group disinterested in supporting Wyrd. Then to find out that the promised PDF, that we have literally waited months for, is unlikely to even address the Rising Powers problems...

Of course we have house ruled problems and created all sorts of things to play, but then why would we want or need Wyrd? Why would I purchase their rule book for $15 dollars if I've improved their game myself to everyones satisfaction. And if you honestly think that there is no difference between an official ruling and the house rule, well then I'm glad your group feels that way. I've never been in a group that feels they are equal.

Now my group and I feel that what should of been a quick rally of the company to address really poor editing and rule writing (which was probably happened in the first place to rush the book out for gen con, regardless of quality of the product they were selling, or maybe something else but they aren't telling us what happened), has turned into a many month long process where Wyrd has found a way they think they will make a buck or two off of their own mistake. Maybe they will, but they certainly lost money in my area, people are spending their funds elsewhere for the holidays because they feel uncared for and neglected. They respect a lot of what Wyrd has created but the way they have handled it has made them apathetic what Wyrd has done well.

They won't be making the meer $15 dollars for the one book that would of been bought and shared at the store or passed around for the league, and instead the lost hundreds of dollars in sales over the last 6-8 weeks. As the older players stopped playing and purchasing and thus decreased the number of other players in the area picking it up or new players starting into Malifaux rather then substitutes.

They are a very new company in a market that has been notoriously hard to break into. Mistakes like these that aren't handled well have a large impact on a fragile player base.

You did catch the free PDF part right.

Not only did I notice it I mentioned in the post you are replying to ...

It's frustrating that a lot of our delay in forum responses and general FAQ and errata have likely been delayed because they want to release this rule book. I've watched my group disentergrate because of the incredibly long time it has taken to release something that should of been much simplier than what they have made it.

Now I'm not saying that the book isn't a good idea considering how troublesome the initial book and errata are to sort through. But delaying the online PDF has destroyed my community, and maybe mine is the only one suffering from this but I doubt it. If it's not then they are losing money due to the neglect and delay not making money by releasing it as a book.

And maybe the free PDF will be wonderful, but the description given to us in the announcement forum sounds anything but promising. The veil of secrecy they insist on creating as well as the lack of communication are a large problem. Granted my experience is completely anecdotal I don't have sales numbers and maybe they are experiencing actual growth rather than just a bump in numbers with rising powers being released.

But anyway. My group is all but dead and this will probably kill it. None of us will purchase that book and most of us are very unlikely to ever purchase a wyrd miniature again.

Their update consisted of making an announcement that they are going to sell a new supplement book containing the rules, errata and FAQ. Go to the announcement section to take a look, or follow the link.

They will also be giving out a free PDF, which will have 'much less content' they hint it will include just the core rules and nothing from rising powers.

Many fans seem happy with it, and I'm sure the new art will be amazing as always. But it seems they just want us to pay them to make up for their mistakes. After having purchased Rising Powers its unfortunate that they want me to buy another book to get a copy of the rules that aren't filled with design or editing errors.

My area has almost completely died half way through its growth spurt due to the problems so far and the length of time it has taken them to fix it. This will likely kill it completely.

I wanted to tell you as much as you wanted to hear it, but I also knew that until now we didn't have anything concrete to say...and that's just a recipe for trouble!

Appreciate it. Thank you for the update.

Don't need to give us a date in situations like that, but an update on what you are working on and why it is talking long or what the goal is would give us information without setting a date you can't meet.

Well for someone who wants people to read the entire thread, I suggest you read my post. Not once did I call you a douchebag. Unless of course you are one of those people who scours the rulebook for broken, abusive combos because it makes you feel important to be the best nerd. In that case I feel sorry for you and your opponents.

The intent of scouring the rulebook is to learn the game and become good at it. An unintended effect (and not a bad one) is finding things like Hamelin's infinite combo.

'Trying Hard' and attempting to be the best at things one partakes in are generally considered admirable qualities. That they are looked down upon by some people in the context of gaming still baffles me.

But yes you indirectly called me a douche bag, and you did it without any understanding of my position on the matter, you lack empathy and critical thought sir and maybe you should try to listen to what other people are saying before judging so harshly.

I do not greatly enjoy painting but I don't call people assholes because they do and are better at it than I am. I very much appreciated a well painted army, but not to get the same respect because for knowing the rules and being good at the game is an amazing double standard.

In a tournament you have other issues, but you can (and should) consult the person running the tournament on any ambiguous rulings you feel may come up, before you go to the tournament.

Yup. Something I've already mentioned in this thread. Please threads something before you comment in it. Otherwise we just end up rehashing old things every time someone enters the thread.

Epic rage is epic?

And no one called you a douchebag. Stop strawmanning. It doesn't help your argument, which has some very good points wrapped burrito-style in spite.

I do think the errata since book 2 could have been handled better. We havent sen much of Wyrd since gen con, and it hasn't helped the mess any. But I've got no doubt they'll fix things. They've been good so far, I'm willing to show a little trust. I've seen how busy they really are. I say we calm down and just relax. The new errata will be out soon.

While I'm a bit frustrated, its certainly no where close to 'rage'. And writing it off frustration of a fan/player/consumer simply because of the topic in question is nerdy doesn't make the frustration less legitimate.

He was calling me a douche-bag, and he was doing it from a place of extreme ignorance. I didn't use him calling me a douche-bag to suggest that his arguments were invalid, so it certainly wasn't a strawman to bring it up.

But again, the cause of my frustration and various others around here is the lack of communication. Especially for the duration in which there has been no communication. That on top of a having purchased a product that the expected quality (the rulebook not the models) it makes people feel neglected and used.

The people here requesting more information from Wyrd are doing so because they enjoy the game, they want to see it continue and are trying to offer assistance by either expressing ways to fix it or talking about their feelings relating to the problem. They/we want to see action being taken and feel like Wyrd cares about its fans, because we care about Wyrd.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on the Errata matter as well as their uninformed perspective of what my role is here at Wyrd. I would just hope that people try to understand it's not just something that can happen overnight without considering the whole story of what is involved.

Please keep it civil or I'll end up having to lock the thread and pass out warnings.

I don't know what your role is a Wyrd nor really have I claimed to. I did suggest how Wyrd might improve their interactions with the community and you post with much greater frequency than other Wyrd employees, or at least do in the areas of the forum I frequent. So suggesting that you are a 'face of Wyrd' seems a legitimate claim.

But as rajcze mentioned, the request was for information so that we can become informed.

Frankly I feel that miniature gamers tend to want far more than is necessary to play the game. If you look through the Errata 90% of it is extreme nit-picking, primarily on grammar. Which is commendable to have proper grammar but at the same time makes a copy-heavy rules set even more cumbersome. All of those types of changes can be made with additional print runs.

Out of curiosity have you thread this entire thread?

Because it doesn't seem like you aware of the complaints at all.

I think it has to do with the video game culture, and the idea that you have to "beat" the game. so you have those D-bags that will try to find every little loophole and over-powered combo to make sure they "beat" the game/opponent.

Most resonable people would say Molly Squidgepidge is a unique character, yet some people will still summon her with herself because the book doesn't say she is unique.

It all boils down to this: is your gaming group a bunch of reasonable guys/girls out to have fun? or are they all trying to "beat" the game? If your answer is the former, then the errata/V2 card issue is annoying but not game-breaking. If however, your group is the latter, then the card/errata issue is a major problem.

Wonderful job picking one example where reasonable people certainly can agree. One that has been mentioned more as a observation of the mistake rather then a actual thing people would try. Like the Hamelin infinite combo. Now how about you look at all the the reasonable concerns that have been brought up?

How about firing into combat? How about adding that The Stolen are not unique to an official easy to find area for people that don't frequent the forums or spend a significant portion of their forum time reading through the rules area? Or the large number of other examples that have been brought up that are legitimate and reasonable concerns.

Also rather you didn't call me a douche bag simply because I want a game that functions without me having to make up rules, and then re-make them up when I play against new opponents or go to a new local store to play. Have you really never had a problem entering a new environment and being frustrated or frustrating other people because an aspect of the game functioned differently then one of you thought? Especially when you show up to a tournament to find out they play differently then you because the rule is to ambiguous and they made up their own as well? Or does wanting to seek out new players at different locations by default make me a Douche Bag? This is certainly not the end of the world, but also very frustrating and realistically it is something I've seen many people get very worked up over. But hey, I get it anyone that doesn't enjoy the same things you do much be a total asshole.

One cannot simply snap their fingers to make everything better for everyone all at once.

To assume that is indeed a fallacy.

No one has asked for that. To ignore out actual posts and make up an extreme example of what were are sort of kind of saying is actually a fallacy, unlike whatever you want to make up in your mind that we are saying. It's called a Red Herring.

The V2 Cards have started to hit the shelves yes, as the originals on the majority were all out of stock. Some of the product still had the original cards packed within them and repackaging the stock was not a feasible task.

No one suggested you repackage the stock, generally the complaint about the V2 Cards has been about the lack of communication. V2 cards arriving in stores caught some people by surprise as they assumed there would be announcement, likely in the area specifically put aside for announcements, stating that you had started to ship the V2 cards. Additionally I'd imagine many of us would of appreciated a list of which models are getting V2 cards, just some of them or all of them? If just some, which ones? In the absence of this communication the community did create a thread to try and solve this dilemma, but that doesn't mean Wyrd couldn't of handled it better. Or even posted in that thread when it came about stating which models were getting new cards.

The public V2 cards will be greatly appreciated, but it would also of been greatly appreciated to be a bit more aware of whats going on within Wyrd. Taking the hour or two to make those announcements put them in the place you have designated for announcements is hardly any work at all and would of appeased the people on this forum greatly and probably made you a good chunk of money for a measly couple hours of work.

There were plenty of announcements made. Perhaps you should double check?

Obviously its not your job to make search for people, but you are a large part of the face of Wyrd on this forum. Maybe linking the announcements would of been useful to not only Csonti but the readers of the thread as well. It would also go a good way to establishing the better rapport between Wyrd and its fans that the fans have obviously been seeking.

No matter what your skills are, unless you're a part of the company, you're a fan. That is the meaning of the word I was using. It was in no way derogatory. I include myself in this category.

Which is why I said just a fan. I'm certainly a fan of their product, but writing people off as incapable because they are a fan of the product is logical fallacy.

I don't care what your skill set is: there is NOBODY who could perfect this system such that errata would no longer be needed. It will never be summed up with one document, it will need to constantly change. That was my point.

Not one that I disagreed with, nor did I claim I was capable of producing such an errata; so we can stop with the straw-men and other fallacies.

I really can't think of any company that does such an extensive work for FAQs, it sounds a bit like "in perfect world" situation.

Do you play online games that update their content? Do you read their change logs? One current example is League of Legends. They update their game about every other week, releasing a new change log each time. They dev's are also pretty active on their forums. Granted Riot has a ton of other problems with their game but they do this well.

As for non-video games, how about D&D, Legend of the Five Rings, Magic the Gathering? Many of these games have moved away from the need for such frequent FAQ's largely due to the initial quality of the product being better written then Malifaux has been. But back in the day most of them were doing something very similar. The most prominent in my memory is L5R when about a decade ago would send me answers to weekly questions in my email.

But it's this is also irrelevant, it would take about 3-5 hours a week to keep this document/thread updated with recent questions and their answers, easily doable and the benefit to the community would be great.

They truly do care about the product and the customers.

I didn't make a comment on what they care about, I made a comment about how it makes the consumers feel. I'm sure they do care, and I'm sure they are working hard. But they don't seem to be making the consumers feel happy nor comfortable with what is going on. And working hard is only useful if you know how to work toward the right thing efficiently. Working hard but not having a good result is often a problem in business, and thus why I suggested they hire someone with experience or know how in the fields they are lacking.

"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best."

They are very skilled at what they do well, I'm just suggesting the seek help in aspects they don't do well. Comparative Advantage is reality.

Additionally, to my knowledge, Eric, Nathan, their spouses, and maybe a handful of people who handle shipping (although maybe Nathan handles all the shipping) are the only Wyrd employees. (i.e. receive a paycheck) Their dev team and playtests ARE staffed with fans who are dedicated and who are doing it for the good of the game. So, essentially, they've already taken your advice.

I suggested hiring someone to do the job, yes that would cost money, but not a lot and the result would likely be greater revenue in the long run. Your very unlikely to get an experienced individual to volunteer their time in their field of work on a for-profit project.

I don't think you or Ratty, or any number of fans could do it. I think we should stop striving for perfection and start striving for practicality. On all fronts: both the consumers and the company.

Agreed that perfection is unattainable. But you make a mistake is assuming that Ratty, myself or various other people in this community are just 'fans' instead it might be wise to assume that some of us have worked with games, rules, programming or law for quite some time and are thus probably skilled in this area. My experiences have been with games, psychology and education. I don't have experience in programming nor law, but someone with experience in those areas can sympathize with and understand a lot of the problems game designers face even if they are just a 'fan.'

I gave up waiting last week, typed out the entire rules section, added all the errata, Common Abilities, Extra Errata, Extra and I've started Examples where things were unclear. I'm finiding it so hard to play at my LGS when you don't have internet access.

Still need to rip the FAQ appart as there are some things that are in the FAQ that aren't in the rules. i.e. being able to walk through spirits.

I'll be the third henchman to have a similar comment :bounce:

Simply put, Wyrd decided to pull the Terraclips product line because it wasn't up to what they believe is a quality product for their consumers. Right now the rules aren't up to snuff to them, so in response they're making sure that they don't have to push out constant errata after another and give us something that has quality and significance, rather than quick fix erratas and FAQ's.

The time they are taking is inexcusable, and would put just about just about any other type of game under already. The rules of either book don't meet anyones standard of quality assurance, book two's editing is worse then any GW product ever released. So making that argument that the errata isn't out because they care about the quality of the rules nearly an insult considering how little effort (or maybe it was significant mistakes in printing) was put forth on the actual release. Within a week or two I could of done it all alone, as it seems so could of Ratty and probably various other people on this forum, not to mention if we had all of us together working on it.

They need to be talking to us, they probably should of hired for a new position to have deal with this for them or replaced the person that was supposed to be doing this. There are a number of people on this forum that could could certainly be doing it as a part time job remotely.

When you have your consumers fixing many of your problems for their local groups within a faction of the time it takes the company there is a problem, and it is incredibly hard to swallow that the company filled with individuals paid to do this should be taking longer than the players who are doing it in their free hobby time.

Additionally there should a section of this forum that a a growing FAQ, a weekly compiling of questions asked and their answers, in general an easy to use living rules compendium online for new and old players to refer to. Plus a notification to players on what they are examining for errata or balance changes. That these havn't been done shows they have little experience in this matter and their delay in communicating is being understood to mean by consumers that they are either not listening or don't care. I've know various people who have stopped playing due to this problem and various more who are having trouble recruiting new players.

At some point, the 'we are trying to make it perfect' argument stops working, and in this case it was nearly a month ago. Which was a full two months after the release of the book itself. If it takes this long to make it a quality errata they need to bring in someone to help them before they start losing even more business.

Sorry, we've gone off topic here. I was mainly enquiring as to the quality of the rulebook (both content and manufacture).

The manufacturing of the book is exceptional, as people have already attested to.

As for the content well that varies.

The layout of the book is wonderful at first sight, separating the rules by story. A great pace of the book the first time reading through it. However as you start to play and need to reference the rules (which you will have to do a lot) it becomes quite annoying having to flip through sections to find where the correct rules are. I suggest either adding sticky tabs or memorizing the pages.

The story is pretty decent, the world a fun fresh take on our own various mythology and stories.

The game pieces are generally well balanced, only about 1/4 of them will never see the table competitively which is a very high rate in miniature gaming. Their abilities are pretty unique and innovative.

However, I'm a miniature gaming veteran and have played this game for a little over a year now and I still spend about as much time playing as I do looking up rules while playing. They are pretty poorly written and organized. Not having a index really hurts starting out. Various rules general and model specific simply don't function as written and others, especially in book two, are flat out wrong. But if your gaming group doesn't care about official rules and are fine just house ruling things as you go; then this won't be much of a problem. If your group is more competitive and/or very adamant about official rulings this could create a large problem though.

In theory a errata is coming out soon...but they people who know aren't sharing so...

hell, we've had whole debates about whether something should be erratad without ever discussing what the errata might be!

Well, lots of problems present themselves from this statement, but I'll just harp on this one. You are discussing game balance things as well, and you should be. But the largest problem it would seem many of us are encountering right now is a clarity issue not a balance one.

There is probably a discussion on Double Take's power as worded and while it would be nice for you guys to look at that, more importantly you need to focus on parts of the game that are simply non-functioning. You need to organize all the threads dealing with all of the problems in book 2 and make them easy to access. This includes base sizes, triggers wrongly relating to weapons, wrong traits (like unique) and various other significant problems with the actual rules, editing and game pieces.

Its not like a video game where a patch comes out and suddenly you can't log into the game. It isn't like a video game where they don't give you patch notes or there are significant changes that aren't in the patch notes that fundamentally change the way the game is played.

If a video game was as buggy as this one, it wouldn't function as designed in significant areas. And good video game companies do give patch notes on changes. In both instances working on a video game is significantly easier for the designer. First because if a bug is so significant that it prevents things from working as designed or crashes the game its much easier to find. Second video games have the luxury of forcing the knowledge of changes on their customers/players. While it is much more difficult educate players on changes on a table top game. And as Wyrd has it set up right now you pretty much have to spend daily time in the rules section to be playing the game correctly. Then when you are aware of the changes and your opponent is not, there is not a easy document to refer to. You have to remember a thread name or a easily searchable reference in the thread plus a computer and internet to discuss changes in the rules properly.

And finally if a video game had fairly important aspects of its gameplay that were no functional or were obviously not functioning as intended and left them unfixed for much more then a week its publishers are going to encounter a lot more grief and financial loss then Wyrd has experienced so far (at least in former case, I don't know how they are doing financially and how these problems are affecting that).

I don't think you understand what competitive means. Some of the games I've had the most fun playing are when I lose. Competitive players enjoy playing to the best of their ability and seek constant improvement, and there is no better way to notice an area to improve on then when you lose.

Sure they are people that are very poor losers but being a poor loser != a competitive player.

Yeah but the big thing I hate about this kind of tactic is it's abusing the game. Sure it works and it's powerful, but it's also cheap. It's like the Res bringing dogs and using them for bodies for something big. It's an abuse of the game. I guess what I should say is, I see no honor in playing like that :/ but that's me and that's my opinion on the matter. You are of course free to play how you like, as long as you and your opponent are having fun it's all good. =)

This comes up all the time...

Playing the win is not immoral, its not abusing anything and there is nothing wrong with it.

While I agree that it is unfortunate that Wyrd decided that it should be more powerful to slaughter your own guys on the first turn in a couple different crews your casting the blame on the wrong party when you see players who are taking advantage of that design choice.

Don't neglect Nekima either. -2 Wp 6" aura and can provide a lot of the physical damage if thats something your looking for in a Pandy crew like Natty is. Then of course there is the obvious synergy with Lilitu if you plan on taking her. She even makes it possible for Lilitu to be taken without Lelu as with the Regen 1 she can regain all the Wds she looses for being fielded alone.

I think Zethal, that you should give them a more indepth look. What you cited is exactly what you would see by only looking at their surface details. I just think you missed what they can really do.

I looked at them with great depth. I understand what they can do and their weaknesses. I just don't find it to be worth fielding them in a Lilith crew.

If I'm picking Lilith as my master I want to build a force that optimizes with her abilities, and I don't feel that they lend themselves to her style. If I as playing a Hag crew they certainly have a place, as Zoraida has a much greater comparative advantage to that style of play and has a preference toward Nephilim much like Lilith.

But it all comes down to your play style I guess. Yours is probably just more straight-forward then my own. If you just want to fly up and smash faces, yeah go with the less tricky Young/Mature Nephilim and Nekima. But if you wan't options and more ways to get your opponent, go with Lelu and Lilitu. Whatever works for you in the end is the right choice. =)

I field Zoraida, Pandora, Collette and Lilith. I've dabbled in Ramos and Tina. I enjoy a variety of play styles but for what Lilith best lends herself too I just don't think the twins have a place. She trades some of her potential, model count (which really helps her) and power for some utility.

A Zoraida crew fielding Nekima the twins, maybe a shaman and tots doesn't waste any of Zoraida's potential. Now I not saying this is a stronger list then Lilith with youngs, tots and Nekima but it certainly optimizes the use of the master a lot more.

And of course due to variety of abilities on both the twins and Nekima all three of the models shine in brawls where each master can utilize different aspects of them.

Hmm I disagree a bit with you both.

Lilitu and Lelu just don't cut it in for a Lilith crew imo. Lelu is way to slow and Lilitu isn't quite the face smasher that I want for the crew. Plus with Nekima, Lelu and Lilitu your cost is 5 higher then a mature and 2 youngs which is not insignificant.

I'd throw down Nekima and leave the other two at home to play with each other in a Lilith crew.

So don't buy it. It isn't really a critical model for Neverborn crews.

He's even one of the worst models available to all of the Masters. Which seems to be an annoyingly common aspect for each of the riders.

I agree with Qiqel to an extent. Fresh Meat is by far his best ability, if you are thinking of fielding him this is the reason to do so. Exhume is meh, even now that you can cheat it. If you really want corse counters he's worth 3.5 Dogs. His second best ability is his Paralyze trigger.

But Fresh Meat really isn't useful in low point games, unless you have lots of undead that it proves useful on then it's just a walk for a few models. Plus he has zero synergy with Sebastian who is one of the best models Nico and Doug have available to them. I wouldn't consider fielding him until at least 35 points and even then I'd struggle to give him 1/5 of my crew. But in a Brawl I can't imagine not bringing him. Once you really get up there in points he just shines, influencing more undead, having more options for his companion and with the increase in max hand size Exhume becomes a bit more reliable. Then with two summoning masters the extra corpse counters might prove to be really useful on any turns you are holding a few high :crows

Huh..? I would revise your scoring a bit:

Pandora

Of: 0 (She doesn't attack unless through spells which aren't to be counted here)

Um yes it is. Offense as defined by OP is relating to how well the model hits enemies. As Pandora attacks with Wp for incity pacify with a of 7 she hits rather easily.

Df: 0 (The lowest Df value amongst masters)

And again this is about them being hit, this would relate to Wp, Df and recently Ca. While her Df is low she essentially has all three of those stats at 7 due to Fears. Which the opponent needs to flip against to hit the opponent. Again this is how the OP defines it.

Rg: 0 (No ranged attack)

And again the OP does not ask for a attacks. It asks for "How well does the model do attacking at range?". Which for Pandora is quite well.

I think if you had one Rogue Necromancy and two flesh golems, you'd be set. You'd be hard pressed to summon more than that in a single game. And if you are, then McMourning isn't in there slicing stuff up.

Agreed that's probably fine. Although one might summon more then 2 during the game, you will unlikely have more then 2 on the table at any given time.

It also doesn't hurt his combat potential very much due it being his 0. You loose scalpel slinging or Master Surgeon. But the vast majority of the time it will be better to have a Flesh Construct if you can make one.

Not having read Rising Powers, besides looking at the Rogue Necromancy, I have no idea what Necrotic Machine does.

Anyone wanna give me an idea?

It's just generally good. Has a Ca of 4:crows making him the best caster of the totems. a Cb of 4 and a good damage at 2/2/4. It's Hard to Wound with 4 Wds and 5 Wp making it the hardest one to kill as well. Then it has a Cb trigger on a crow for Poison Three which is really scary. Makes your opponent have to deal with him in combat or possibly take a 5 (8 over a few turns) damage weak hit from this little guy. Plus he makes a unit undead within 2" as a 0. Which is nice for Sebastian in Nico's list but doesn't help much in Doug's.

Dreamer/LCB

OF: 0/2

DE: 2/0

RA: 1/0

MA: 2/2

ME: 0/2

UT: 2/1

DO: 0/2

SU: 1/1

CC: 2/2

MO: 2/1

12/13

I'm curious as to how others Rate the masters that have already been posted up, to see how different the scores look. As Akumakaze said, it's a community work in progress.

I think it would be better to consider them a single model.

Also it would probably be best to get ~5 people to rate each master and average those scores. Also to talk about how to rate the model, is it's power relative to all models in the game or just other masters? Or even just other masters of its own crew? Less redundant categories might help too. Simplicity is best for beginning anything, making the distinction between Defense and Survivability cause more a problem then a boon, as is general offense compared to ranged or melee. Should probably just have Ranged and Melee.

Here is how I would rate LCB using your dual rating idea.

Of: 0/2

Df: 1/0

Ra: 0/0

Ma: 2/0

Me: 0/2

Ut: 2/0

DO: 0/2

Su: 1/1

CC: 2/2

Mo: 2/2 (would give it a 3, their mobility is really off the charts)

Total: 10/20, 11/20: 5.5/10, which is a bit low. If we scored it as one model, taking the best each category it would have received 8/10, which is probably a bit high.

What I'm looking for, is a working 25SS McMourning list so I can just order it all and go from there.

McMourning, some Punk Zombies, apparently there's a neat shooting Merc and some other Mercs I'm apparently supposed to cut up for body parts.

I understand that the crew makeup can change from mission to mission as you can tweak your crew between. However, I'll cross that bridge later. I'd appreciate it if you guys could write me up a kickass list?

So McMorning is a pretty decent Melee Master. He's only decent though due to his quite bad Wp and Df for a master. The 12 wounds and Hard to Wound are good, and Organ Donor is great if he can survives through a round of heavy fire. But he is also fairly easy to take down in a turn for an list with a lot of damage potential.

To assist with this weakness his greatest ally seems to be Betty Noir. She is also quite fragile but puts out a scary amount of damage. Using Betty to draw fire from McMorning seems to work quite well. It gives a really tough choice to your opponent. They either have to go all out on McMorning to take him out risking Betty eating through them, or take out Betty which is a much safer bet and she is more of a damage threat. Additionally Doug's crews normally run quite low on card requirements so its not a problematic restriction to retain a high card for her One with the Night.

Besides that, Sebastian is amazing. The most Reliable AoE attack in the entire Ressie faction, wonderful damage, melee expert, Gravedigger, farms body parts and can give corpse/body counters to Doug.

Canine's work well with Sebastian and are generally amazing for any Ressie master except Kirai. They are threatening enough to force your opponent to kill them, they collect Corpse Counters, arguably better then even Nico's vultures. And most of all the are really cheap Corse Counters.

Then of course the Dissect trick.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=119841&postcount=4

The Necrotic Machine is the best totem available to non-Kirai ressies. For a totem it's Ca of 4 great, its by far the hardest to get rid of, the highest attack stat, Mv 5 and absolutely scary damage with potentially Poison 3 and a base damage of 2.

So a general rule of thumb is bring every Corpse Counter you want to use. More then half the models in the game won't drop the counters and many crews don't have a single model that drop them. So don't rely on your opponents models to feed your need for these counters.

Here's a few 25SS lists that should work quite well. Although I highly suggest you push your group and yourself to move to 35SS the game really seems to shine at that size of crew. Similar to 2250 or 2k WHFB armies.

Betty Crew: May struggle a bit in 25SS due to Betty's Cost

McMorning

Necrotic Machine, 2

Betty Noir, 9

Sebastian, 6

4xCanine, 8

Total = 25SS, 6 Cache

More standard Crew:

McMorning

Necrotic Machine, 2

Sebastian, 6

Crooked Man, 4

Belle/Punk Zombie, 4/5 by preference

3x Canine, 6

Total = 25SS, 6/7 Cache

So...this is obviously subjective but it would seem pandora does really well on your scale.

Pandora

Of: 2 (Trauma, Mental Anguish, Self-Loathing)

Df: 2 (Fears, Trauma)

Rg: 2 (12", 8")

Ma: 2 (Well of all them, the only argument for a 1 would be her Ca of 6)

Me: 0

Ut: 2 (Pacify/Incite, Dementia, Emotions, Nightmare, Anguish)

DO: 2

Su: 2 (Fears, 7 Wp, Martyr)

CC: 2 (Trauma, Relationship, Martyr)

Mo: 2 (Fading Memory)

Total: 9/10