Ropetus

And during Obey you only get one (1) Action. That means no time for Drain Blood during Obey.

-Ropetus

Check your stat cards again, it's next to his Cache. Marcus is Unique, just like every other Master in the game.

-Ropetus

Ramos also has counterspell so he's relatively immune to Pandora (she can still use her 0 action but not being a spell she can't make him fall back and he has healing potential). He can also detonate his minions near her to kill her with no comeback.

A sonnia criid gang is even more covered with her advanced counterspell.

Ah, totally forgot about those two. Ramos definitely has an edge over her. His Counterspell + summonable solid Wp Minions that deal unavoidable damage just work against her. Same is true for Sonnia, except her Counterspell is more effective but her Minions are less expendable.

Sonnia could even do the sneaky (although risky) trick of not Counterspelling when holding the Red Joker. Use that one + Soulstone on Resisting instead and reflect Project Emotions back on Pandora instead (if you have Governor's Proxy, that's Ca 6 vs. Wp 9, granting you the edge). If that one works, it should turn Pandora into a crybaby.

-Ropetus

Raintar: check WS:s thread "Extra Errata Items" in the Rules Forum.

She is not that invincible as she used to be. At least now she can be caught as she can't Pacify her entire Crew to escape to the other end of the battlefield. The biggest problem with her was that she could start the turn far away, use Pacify on her crew to close in and bring a hoard of Sorrows along, cast some spells and totally decimate her enemies and then retreat back to somewhere she cannot even be attacked using Pacify.

Now that she can't Pacify her own crew and can bring a maximum of 3 Sorrows to aid her spellcasting (she won't start the turn within 3" of enemies very likely) she should be much more manageable. Also bringing the Sorrows in requires a Walk Action next to her enemies which eats one spell she could cast. She also can't escape that far away so easily since she can only Pacify/Incite enemy models.

Also, there won't be any Sorrows next to you when you attack her. Of course you kill the Sorrows before even touching her as they're easier kills, cause you Wd loss and they would take the hits anyway due to Martyr.

Also, almost all the crews have something to counter her.

Guild have high Wp and can boost it even further with Governor's Proxy. When everyone in your Crew has Wp 7-9, getting a chance to hit her should be far from impossible. With Guild's damage potential, it only takes a couple of hits to drop her. Guild have some movement control as well, Samael hitting her with Snare should be most fun.

Ressers suffer in the Wp department. However, they have a lot of Wd so they can take a few failures. Also, they can summon the troops back after they die so its no biggie. Unless Pandora nails their Master they are not in terrible trouble and all except McM equal her in Wp. Seamus can even use Trail of Fear to make it very risky for Pandy to attempt an assault anywhere near him. Oh, and try to get a hit on her with a Hanged, she will be mincemeat with that on Wp Duels for the rest of the game. McM has the most trouble with Pandy due to his low Wp and does not have any easy answers to that one.

Arcanists have nothing special in the Wp department but at least Raspy can try hitting her with blasts, avoiding Expose Fears. Ramos can use the same measures as Ressers by summoning back killed units. Marcus has the ultimate anti-Pandora weapon: Howl. -3 to Pandora's Wp and +3 to his crew's should make her cry.

For other Neverborn Lilith uses the Guild method, except she does not have as high Wp. However, only two hits from Lilith's sword should drop Pandora. With her speed it should be possible to dispatch the Sorrows before they become a problem. Zoraida has such a high Wp she will just laugh at Pandora's tricks and could use Crystal Ball to manipulate Pandora's deck in a fashion that not even a Soulstone will help her avoiding a hit.

For Outcasts, Leveticus has it a bit easier, beating Pandy in Wp and having very damaging spell list. Viktoria's have a harder time as Self Loathing will hurt big time with Wp 6 and high damage weapons, not to mention low Wd count. For the Gremlins Pandora is an extremely tough match up but that's mainly because low Wp is their inbuilt weakness. Still, if they manage to empty Pandora's Control Hand, catching her with a Pigcharge should be possible.

So we have that of the 14 other Masters, McM, Viktorias and Som'er have a rough time with her. Lilith, Ramos and Raspy may have a slight disadvantage due to Wp difference. Sonnia, Nicodem and Leveticus should be on an even field and LJ, Perdita, Seamus and Marcus definitely have an advantage over Pandora. Sounds like an even distribution to me.

Of course trying to get to her headlong will prove futile since you will just get damaged by all the Sorrows andshe will run away with Fading Memory. However, if you can soften her web a bit before assaulting, she should be manageable.

-Ropetus

Lure is not really a viable choice imho. Firstly it needs a 8+:crows from Kade or the Sorrow. That is only 6 cards and the RJ in the deck. You can hardly build a solid strategy on this. Especially that you need the Lure in the first few turns. So you have 1-2 draws to get the right card. The other problem is that Kade will lose Harmless. In case you do this with a Sorrow then the problem is that he (it?) must be close to the frontline and that's usually a problem in case the opponent has some long range options.

Not to mention your crew most likely has a much better use for that high :crows to use Pandy's or Kade's Triggers, rather than get some movement for Pandy.

Candy's Wail could work, if you can sacrifice one Walk with her. She is a Casting Expert so you always have a free AP for Charm if needed (although this requires a high card to succeed the cast so is not optimal).

Sorrows linking and using Siphon Magic does not work either since it's an (all) Action so its not usable the turn you Link. Melancholy and Doldrums still work, though they requie high cards for the cast.

I like the Poltergeist idea but I think using Magical Extension for Dementia would work best: it's an easy cast (8 of any suit, easier if you take Primordial Magic Instead) and after that you get to perform a Wp -> 13 Duel before every Action. The Duel is relatively easy for Pandy (only needs a 6 to be cheated in) and you get 4 Actions on first turn for 20" of movement. Walk twice for 14", cast something (doesn't matter if you pass or fail) for 4" more and use Incite on something (doesn't matter if its out of range, as long as you have LoS) for the last 4". If that is not fast enough just use some of the other methods before this for a few extra inches.

This last option is the best IMO because it doesn't require any high suited cards to work. It also uses those medium-low cards from your hand (which you would discard anyway) to pass or fail certain Duels so there is little harm done for future plays. It also only sacrifices 1 AP of your Totem instead of those valuable AP of Candy or Kade.

-Ropetus

Am I misreading something in Reconoiter? I read that you need a model in each quarter not each corner so I could steamroll into the center and just have four figures in the middle with each fully in one quarter.

Yes. By the book, Reconnoiter and Claim Jump are the same Strategy, except that with Reconnoiter you don't need to care about enemy models and have more freedom about where your models can be.

We have proposed a house rule for the Reconnoiter Strategy in that there is a minimum distance from the center for a model to count as occupying a table quarter. That way the Strategy has something of its own instead of being "Claim Jump Lite".

The scenario system is fun at start but it doesn't really work after a few games. The Strategies are not in the same scope at all (Slaughter vs. Reconnoiter, you kidding?) and the same Schemes (Bodyguard mainly) get picked every single game.

If the only thing that matters is your own Strategies and Schemes I would definitely get a fast hard hitter (basicly: Steamborg) in your crew. Getting Assassinate or Slaughter as your Strategy against a speedy Master will majorly suck otherwise.

-Ropetus

While the Ortega starter works quite nicely for the first games it is very gimmicky. Once your opponents learn to deal with it, start using terrain to block LoS and quickly engage them in melee the shooters are Toast.

If you play the Ortega game the objective is to balance the force a bit. You definitely need something to use for a counterattack in case your shooters (especially Santiago and Nino) get tied in melee. However, you don't want this to have too much of a cost on your ranged firepower.

This is why I think Death Marshals and Witchlings are the best additions. Both are cheap is SS so you can bring many and they are solid shooters and good in melee as well. While Witchlings have +1 melee Dg and Immolation Demise the Marshals are much tougher and more effective shooters. Ideally, these units should be the ones to take first contact with your opponent's melee units.

When Guild Guard get released, they should work in a control role using Cordon and Halt! to limit enemy movement. I think they should be even more effective in a shooty crew than Marshals or Stalkers.

Of the family members, I find Francisco the most important. That guy is the name of flexibility, and is very cheap as well. While he is the weakest shooter of the family (still no slouch) he has much improved melee skills over the others. Anything standing in his melee range is going to get three Cb7 minimum 3 Dg strikes flying at their way. Only some 9+ point models can survive that. He is not that survivable though so he is not made for the frontlines. I usually keep him in reserve and charge him in when another family member gets tied in melee. The ideal situation is to use Obey to grant him a Charge so he can Flurry on his activation for optimal killiness. All in all, he costs 1 SS over a Stalker or Marshal and is better in melee than a Stalker and a better shooter than a Marshal.

Santiago I like the next most. That guy is a supreme killer and quite survivable as well, if you can steer clear of melee (that's why its important to keep some cheap models as bodyguards). He needs to stay close, but not too close, to your enemies so he can be a bit tricky to use. If you can get him at 4 Wd and occasionally heal him he will quickly earn some casualties with the free Walk Action and Trigger Happy. If you have a few high :masks in your hand, don't bother Rapid Firing as that will likely be an overkill. Regular shots with some Triggers might allow you to damage a second model as well (getting those triggers is surprisingly easy with paired weapons).

Nino I have found rarely does much in a game. However, we have A LOT of terrain in our games and my opponents play very cautiously most of the time. He is perfect for picking up a single model in his LoS and laying waste with a few nigh unstoppable Cb 9 shots. Headshot is a luxury and should only be used if you can secure a kill or empty their hand. However, that is a very nice denial tool as your opponent knows they cannot waste all their cards while Nino remains still waiting to activate. When properly shielded from fast melee units he can hold a table quarter by himself.

Papa I have found the least useful but my main opponents have been Pandora, Seamus and Gremlins. Against Pandora she just dies before he gets enything done (Self Loathing is massively effective against him!) and the Gremlins dont really care if he blows up one Piglet with him. Seamus's Belles Lure him in the entirely wrong place as soon as he shows himself. I've got to try him against some other crews as well to see how he fares. He has a lot of potential against non-Wp based crews with fragile models. However, I think against Ressers or Ramos his effect will be minimal since those models can be summoned back with ease.

Perdita is pretty much a Solo Master. She doesn't have much to offer to her Minions (only the occasional Obey) and doesn't really need their help to do her job. With her high stats she can also survive with a smaller Soulstone cache than most Masters. This also leads to her Totem not being an integral part of her tactics (unlike for example Rasputina or Nicodem). However, the Enslaved Nephilim is a great addition for the extra Obey. This makes it the perfect companion for Fransisco. It has solid combat capacity for a 2 SS model so it can make a nice bodyguard for Santiago/Nino as well. As Perdita's only spell usable by Magic Extension is Obey, the Governor's Proxy has surprisingly little to do if you take it. That's why I advice against it unless you're playing a Wp centric crew (Seamus, Pandora or Zoraida basically).

Some people like using Hamelin to bring in Primordial Magic as Perdita's Totem for +1 Ca and extra Control Card over the Nephilim. Although I'm not sure if that's worth +1 SS and of course bringing Hamelin only to bring the Totem is a bit dumb. You better have a plan for him as well if you do this.

-Ropetus

Your planned list looks solid for a December themed crew (well, it has all December themed models in it so has to be). You should get some nice games off with those models.

The Essence indeed is the best Totem for Tina who is based on her direct damage spells. I don't like the official model either so I picked up a Hell Dorado Lemure from my collection to stand in. Painted in blue colours it has a nice "ice spirit" look to it.

Hoarcats sacrifice some durability (although they can heal themselves) for greatly increased damage output.Some nice models to include are Beasts: Moles are super durable for their cost but not very good in offense or speed departments. You can even bounce blasts off your own Moles (with high Armor they don't care). The Cerberus adds a lot of speed which is Tina's main weakness. However, don't send it in alone, it won't last long on its own.

Some people also like Joss as a Beatstick. Tina can buff his defenses with December's Touch so he can go all offensive.

I don't think the crew really needs any Mercenary support, as Arcanists are very versatile on their own already. Of course Convict and Ronin are no brainers but they're so overused I would avoid them. The Convict Gunslinger is indeed a stupid model as its such an auto include in any crew.

-Ropetus

1. Play Seamus, bring in some Belles, maybe a Hanged and durable models.

2. Hit her with all the Wp debuffs you can and make her Fall Back.

3. Lure her next to table edge.

4. ???

5. Profit.

-Ropetus

If you want a shooter based crew then the Guild is definitely the correct choice. Almost all the Guild models have some form of a gun and are competitive ranged attackers. Overall they are a straight forward damage based melee and ranged faction, their weaknesses being lower numbers, being a bit fragile and lack of special trick compared to other crews. If you also want AoE effects to go with shooting, then Sonnia Criid and her fire based spells is the way to go.

Arcanists are much less shooty and could be characterized as a polarized faction, meaning every model has a clear role to perform (with Guild pretty much everyone is a generalist). This naturally leads to a more synergy and finesse based gamestyle as all the pieces must be in the right place at the right time. However, they have plenty more tricks in their sleeves and always have plenty of options at their disposal, as well as the potent for magnificent combos.

Want true and natural beauty? Only the Neverborn!

I'm not sure everyone shares your enthusiasm of Zoraida...

-Ropetus

I'm quite certain not all your enemies are Bolstered Punk Zombies.

My point was that it's a good spell in the right situation (when facing Bolstered Punk zombies) but it's not a great spell you would spam every opportunity. Against most models the buff is unneeded and another whack could just bring more mileage.

Also I don't see the scenario with Alluring + Whirling Death. Your opponent would be a fool to try swarming Lilith with a bunch of models and feed her Whirling Death. Therefore most of the time she would likely need to Walk before Whirling which leads to no chance for Alluring that turn. Maybe if you have activated last, Walked into a bunch of models and then won initiative next round but that seems quite a risky move for me.

-Ropetus

Well, the main problem of the Querub is his lower Ca. This force you to keep a high card (and the suit needed) to cast the Illusionary Forest. You can do it, but it is hard and it cost a good card.

Uh?

Lilith has Ca5 :masks , Cherub has Ca5 :masks and both can use Soulstones. Where is the lower Ca?

The Cherub is a great include with Lilith as it basicly gives Lilith an additional Casting each round. She has a spell repertoire that has something worthwhile to cast every single round. Using Transposition or Illusionary Forest with the Cherub means Lilith can use one more AP to smackdown her opponents, espacially when using Companion to activate Lilith right after. Love is an ok spell as well, -3 Cb could as well say "Cannot make Strikes" when facing Lilith and her Df8.

About Transposition: Yes, according to the errata you target two models, both of which are within 12" of the caster. There is no limit on the distance between the targets. Both targets will get to flip a resist duel and even one success means the spell will fizzle. Your proposed scenario is indeed possible, although it's always risky to cast resistable spells against Soulstone users with Lilith's low Ca.

I've seen Earthquake used as a way to give some serious headstart for your Crew. Casting it once with the Cherub and twice with Lilith on the first turn will give every model in your crew 6" of free movement (don't forget to voluntarily fail the resists). Lilith can easily catch up with her Wk6 and Fast. Especially useful in scenarios like Treasure Hunt.

-Ropetus

The question to ask with Alluring is though: Is it more effective to cast this (risking it might fail/eat a control card) and make your Strikes harder to dodge and maybe more damaging (in case the Df penalty takes the hit to a higher degree) than just simply use the AP to make one more melee Strike? I would imagine that with her on all Dmg flips an extra Strike would be better most of the time.

The situations where it might be useful would be when facing an model with ridiculous Df (7 or 8) and not too many Wd so that one hit will kill it (Bolstered Punk Zombies are a good example with their Df7 and Wd6). Of course if you have 3-4 models in your melee range and are about to use Whirling Death then casting this is a no brainer (although you're playing against a poor player if they let that happen).

However, using it just to reduce Df5 to Df3 is a waste IMO since it is still quite an easy hit and you could as well get an extra Strike in.

Charge protection is nice but Lilith is the prime model in the game who can easily allow herself to get Charged with her insane Df score and Disappear trigger (at least if she has some Stones remaining).

-Ropetus

I'm pretty sure models can't target themselves.

You cannot target yourself with an attack. However, Master Surgeon is not an attack (check the definition from the errata) so you can target yourself with it.

Would make all those "Rg: C" spells pretty dull if you could not target yourself with anything .

-Ropetus

What if you classify it as Viktoria leading the crew and the other master joining them?

That sounds like bending the rules and would make the entire rule obsolete. The point of the rule is obviously that if you take Viktorias and another Master it will cost you 5 SS from your pool. Otherwise you could always say that the other Master "joins" (which is not a common term in the game) the Viktorias and ignore that ruling.

It also makes no sense to not apply Viks and Somer's special crew composing rules during Brawls as well. Not doing so leads to some really idiotic consequences (like So'mer hiring a Desolation Engine) which are clearly not intended that way.

After all, this is not a Games Workshop game designed for those "Rules by the letter" type of gamers. As the erratas have already shown us the correct way to play a rule is most often the one that makes most sense (and this will be in the next errata if someone makes a fuss about it...) and not the one you get by bending the wordings.

My 2 cents.

-Ropetus

Wild Heart is a (0) action and using it to gain the Tiger ability grants you a new (0) action which you can use. However, it will not grant you the AP for it which means you will need to use your second (0) action on the additional Strike.

Stare Down only affects enemy Beasts. While you take control of a model it will count as a friendly model while it acts and will therefore not suffer the penalties from Stare Down. After the activation it will become an enemy model again so will start suffering from Stare Down again.

Instinctual allows you to perform two different (0) actions during your activation. You cannot use Wild Heart twice in the same activation as that would be taking the same (0) action twice. Luckily Marcus has plenty of other options for his spare (0) action .

-Ropetus

Arcanists: I am going to go with some trend bucking and suggest you grab Marcus. Of all the Arcanist masters he is the most straight foward to play. I personally thought Rasputina wouldn't be to hard, and man I was wrong. You really need to get activation order down to a science with her. Marcus though, he is nice and straight foward, he comes with a three headed tiger, and he can buff himself up to stupid degrees with his Wild Heart Spell. Myranda is kind of a non starter but what can you do. She can heal your beasts on her activation and that can mean the diffrence between winning and loosing right there.

I totally disagree. Marcus and his Beasts are all but straight forward. Compared to your choices for other factions (which are optimal for simple starting games) they require a tremendous amount of finesse to succeed with. They have low numbers and while quite speedy are not really hard hitting or tough (Df 5 and 8 Wd is ridiculously weak for such expensive models) which ends up in a massacre if you try to play simple melee with them.

Marcus also cannot "buff himself to stupid degrees", after Wild Heart he will be only average in melee as it comes to Masters, especially as he has no Melee expert or Fast to gain extra strikes (yes he can use Feline Speed to match it but that costs one of his more important Buffs). He is more like a box of options who can do a lot of things ok but is not the best in anything. For introducing games this is not really good as he does not have a clear role as to what to do with him.

If Rasputina does not do the trick for you then I think Ramos could work really well with new players. His tactics are more obvious (lead from behind and support your melee constructs with spells) and the starter works quite well for this (use Steamborg + Swarm to match the other crews, leaving 3 Arachnids for summoning). Should be much more balanced against the other crews you listed and introduces a totally different theme compared to the others (Justice: melee + ranged combat, Seamus: movement control + Wp effects, Lilith: speed + dirty tricks, Ramos: spellcasting + summoning, Viktoria: melee + speed ).

However, all Arcanist Masters are a bit more complicated and the faction in general requires more finesse than the other four. It's quite a challenge to make a simple crew out of them as finesse is so inbuilt in every one of them.

As said, for Guild I would avoid Perdita and the Ortega family for introduction games. Their all ranged gamestyle is very brutal against a player who is not familiar with the rules yet which can lead to a short and boring game for the opponent. On the other hand, they crumble if they get caught in melee making them very hit or miss. Lady Justice and Sonnia Criid are both simple enough to use and have a more all around crew for more varied games.

-Ropetus

Myranda is a bit of a disappointment really. I have tried using her a few times but she never seems to accomplish anything. She is problematic as she really needs lots of different Beasts nearby to have any options at all.

On paper she seems like a nice toolbox with lot of options but most of her spells are too difficult to cast reliably and for Shapechange you could just take the Beast you want for about the same points.

Her only selling point is Animal Instincts which allows her to cast Beasts' spells with a better Ca. However, at the moment Roar is about the only worthwhile spell any Beast has for Myranda to cast (and that was cuddled too in the errata, can't really cast it with a high casting value when it affects your own models too). Hoarcats are better at casting Devour and Constrict is not really worth it. If she could copy (0) spells as well she could be worthwhile with Leap and Dug In/Tunnel added to her options. Same if she would gain the spells of her Shapechange form.

Her melee attack is a joke with that Cb value of 4, even with Clawshape.

I think Myranda would be better in a Brawl with some more SS. The bigger Control hand (especially with Rasputina) would spare more cards for her casting and could allow nice combos with Marcus' Feral spell: think about turning Raspy or Ramos to a Beast and having Myranda copy their spell list and double the amount of spells you throw at the opposition.

-Ropetus

So what you really are trying to say that Lilith is a special Master in the sense that unless you bring in the exact crew (multiple high Paired Cb high Dmg beatsticks and nothing else) that counters all her advantages or you will lose every time? Trying to bring anything else against her will never work since she will kill everything you have before they get a chance to do anything?

What I'm trying to do is hand out ideas for OP on how to deal with Lilith with those models (Marcus + Beasts) instead of telling them to buy an entire new faction to beat Lilith.

I think it's pointless to continue the discussion since we're not talking about the same topic at all.

-Ropetus

She can well activate right after the debuff. If the Cerberus is in range' date=' she can charge in and kill it in one turn easily, even with the debuff.[/quote']

Roar ignores LoS and has a range of 22" (Leap 9" + Walk 5" + R8"). There is absolutely no need for the Cerberus to go anywhere near Lilith's or anyone else's LoS to get Charged. I find the Cerberus best kept in a reserve and unleash it when the opportunity arises, Leaping in for 2-4 Strikes with maybe a Roar inbetween.

However, it really looks like we're discussing different scenarios here. Your plan seems to be killing Lilith with melee fighters while I'm ignoring that (since it's very tough no matter what you do) and instead trying to limit her options and prevent her from interfering with my objectives (which will not drain most of your resources). If your Strategy is Assassinate then your plan makes absolutely perfect sense but then we get the problem of how to catch Lilith when she runs away 18" a turn.

Also, what SS range are you talking about? If you bring in both Joss and Steamborg you will not have space for pretty much anything else unless you play like a 40 SS game.

-Ropetus

You seem to like Flurry a lot. Let me ask: What are the chances of the Steamborg starting it's activation with Lilith in his melee range? The Steamborg/Joss cannot move when they Flurry so unless Lilith does something stupid getting a Flurry on her is a dream at best. Ok, you could do a crazy chain Charge with Knock Aside but that would require you to cheat 2-3 times with :masks .

Marcus needs 0 AP to Feral + Stare Down (both are (0) actions). Add in Howl to make her Wp 3. Now all you need is a 10 to make Feral irresistable without Soulstone use, 9 to be resistable with the Red Joker only without Soulstones and any higher will make it very hard to resist. To me that combo does not seem costly at all. If you don't have any cards higher than 9 in your control hand engaging on that turn would be foolish even with those heavy hitters.

Besides, the whole point of this is to force Lilith to retreat instead of coming after your crew. If you can keep all your models (at least those Lilith can reach) within Marcus's LoS it will be very hard for Lilith to engage any of them without suffering from Stare Down. After all, she pretty much has to activate next if we have the Cerberus nearby threatening to Roar against her Wp3 with .

Against a Master like Lilith Marcus doesn't really have anything better to do than trying to shut down the other Master. And he is damn good at that job.

-Ropetus

Lady Justice might be a tough matchup for her. She hands down beats Lilith in melee ability: with her Sword Style spell she can get Cb11 which can reliably hit her Df8 and does same damage, except she has Critical Strike for some extra punch. She even ignores Disappear if (when) a Totem casts Blind Justice. Without any ranged weapons Lilith's Crew is pretty much forced to confront her if they want to do anything to the opposing Crew.

Pandora could also be a problem with all the Wp targeting "screw you" effects.

-Ropetus

Still, if you want to stick to theme (as most people around here like to do) you can make Lilith's life hard with a Marcus crew with only beasts. Using Howl + Feral + Stare Down on Lilith (still leaves 1 AP for Walk/Defensive stance/Strike, more if you have Student to grant Fast) and having a Cerberus/Myranda nearby to cast Roar should make it a tough decicion for Lilith to stay anywhere near your crew. Actually, you don't nececcarily even need the card for casting Roar in your control hand as even the threat could be enough for Lilith to do something else. Applies equally to every model in Lilith's crew (except Striking could be better to make them Beasts).

Most of the "solutions" you recommend have Cb6, which is the same as many Beasts (Cerberus, Razorspine, Waldgeists, Marcus can even match Paired with Eagle) so these should be just as fine for attacking her. These can also match Paired with extra attacks and replace their survivability with mobility (Leap, Self Preservation, attacking through forests, 12" charge, Lightning quick). They're not necessarily as effective killers as the Steamborg but they don't need to: a Silurid can Charge or Walk/Leap + Strike, then use Self Preservation to retreat and Walk/Leap once more to get far far away. Rince and repeat for nice attrition damage on your opponents. How long can the Steamborg survive if you end it's activation next to Lilith's crew?

-Ropetus

My point is that you don't need to kill Lilith to win (unless your Strategy is Assassinate but that sucks for everyone). If you can force her to focus on defensive actions (Alluring, Defensive Stance, Walking behind cover) instead of using those AP to kill your crew you should be able to complete your objectives. After Defensive Stance, her Charge threat range is only 9" (7" movement + 2" reach) which is avoidable with a Marcus Crew. Most of the time the best thing to do against her is to focus on killing her crew (especially Tots before they grow up) and ignore the almost unkillable Df8 master.

After all, Malifaux is a scenario based game where most of the time you don't need to kill all your opposition to win.

-Ropetus

I just realized that a handy dandy hoppy Jackalope could also Howl for you, in addition to the above.

The Jackalope can't Howl. It can only copy spells using Magical Extension and Howl is not a spell.

-Ropetus