Ropetus

Any thoughts?

A one trick pony is a one trick pony. If Hans dies, you are pretty much done for if you have only Perdita and Hamelin left.

Looks like a great crew for Slaughter/Assassinate. Treasure Hunt should be manageable with Perdita's speed. However, will probably lose Claim Jump and Reconnoiter every time since you don't have enough models.

Will not fare well against some fast melee crews (Lilith will be an absolute horror to face) if they can get to you fast and dispatch a key unit. Zoraida can also turn this all against you (Obeying Hamelin to cast Irresistible Dance on Hans) and is crazy hard to kill. However, against a slower moving melee crew this crew should fare well.

-Ropetus

Those look like a great selection for starting the game. The Death Marshals are maybe the simplest Starter to play (only direct damage melee and ranged with some buffs for allies, no complex tricks) and the December box is very even for beginning games against that one (maybe a bit more complicated but gives nice contrast for melee & ranged vs. casting & defense).

Witchlings are great all rounders for any Guild crew. I doubt you will find a game where you would not like to use at least one, especially against an Arcanist Crew. However, I would avoid the rest of Sonnia's Starter as they have a big advantage over Tina which might frustrate your wife a bit.

For Arcanists the Cerberus is their epitome of speed and mobility, perfect for countering the ranged units of the Guild. The Acolyte has a bit more complex abilities, so maybe leave him out from your first games. He is great in scenarios thanks to his special deployment rules. For the Hoarcats, you should get more than one base to get the best out of them. Their best ability requires you to have two of them next to each other. Most people like using three so they can afford to lose one. One will certainly feel a bit lackduster since they cannot use Devour effectively. Getting three also gives Tina two completely different themed crews to run.

-Ropetus

If you cast a Ranged spell into a melee do you determine the spells success or failure before or after you determine who if effects?

Definitely determine target first. It is consistent throughout the rules that before making any Duels you must know who you target (and measure to see if you're even in range).

-Ropetus

Well, Guild are in the same boat, their only speed model being a MAster (Perdita). Most of the rest are Wk/Cg 4/6. You don't have to send your Masters alone but you have the option if you need the speed.

As for Hamelin could you pick a worse way to get a speed character in your list? First Hamelin is 9SS, seconded he has to still buy a good hight one with leap, that will cost him another 3+1 SS points for a total of around 13 SS points. Next that hight one can’t be outside of 10 inches of hamelin or it dies. No not really the speediest guy.

Umm, I didn't mean that.

I meant Obeying your own guys for some extra speed. Granting a Charge (place your own model in LoS but far enough) gives 6/7/8 extra movement which is a considerable increase. In the early turns you could get a second cast by using Irresistable Dance with the trigger first (you're going to only walk anyway so no harm done).

And it's not like Hamelin is useless against the opposition either. However, he needs a bigger crew to really shine so is not a solution for low SS games.

-Ropetus

I just assumed that as they both at +1 to your hand size, they'd stack.

Yeah. It's a common rule that two abilities with the same name do not stack.

Jack Daw sounds really nasty with Pandora. It's not like she's already powerful enough. Bring some Hanged in the mix to hand out a few to Wp on some models for the rest of the game. Don't even need Project Emotions after that one .

-Ropetus

Well, it's not that bad, a Wp Duel based crew is great for Pandora. That list is still very powerful for Assassinate or Slaughter. For Reconnoiter you can swap a few Sorrows for Terror Tots which are the same cost but not Insignificant. A hoard of Sorrows is not as powerful as it used to be since the errata limited the practical amount Pandy can use at once to 3.

-Ropetus

Yes. The whole point IS to use Controlled Detonation. Gamin are much better for that since you get their Shatter on top of Detonation's damage.

Ice Gamin are constructs and therefore can be the target of controlled detonation, when they have (0) Bite of Winter up they deal 3 damage to unarmored targets with their Shatter ability on top of the 2 damage from the detonation itself.

I don't think this works. You're not affected by your own Bite of Winter and it only affects targeted damage, not blasts or pulses.

Still, it works really well.

-Ropetus

Nice writeup. Allow me to make one correction:

Also keep in mind that due to embrace death, Nicodem benefits as well. This is good if he's coming under attack, because 4 defense is much better than 2.*

Nicodem is not affected since Auras never affect the model using it, unless the ability states so and this one doesn't.

-Ropetus

I've never played Myranda, but if anyone has maybe they could give input on if it would be worth taking her for shapeshifting versatility over say a cerberus (and save a soulstone, in the process!).

No.

Shapechange eats a high :tomes which Ramos is already starving for. Also she will miss one of the key abilities of the Cerberus which is Leap since spells are not copied. Without any Beasts alongside she has pretty much nothing to do since her spell selection is extremely lackduster.

If you need speed, the Steamborg is good, as is a Stoked Arachnid Swarm (split it up and you got a bunch of reactivating arachnids).

-Ropetus

Should work for Claim Jump and its great if your opponent has Assassinate. However, I doubt its very effective for Assassinate, Slaughter, Reconnoiter or Treasure Hunt. Your entire group is slowish and three models (Ramos, Alyce, Johan) are tied to stay together. For those strategies you want some more speed and independence of Ramos' presence, to catch your opposition/treasure or to spread out.

In general, I doubt taking both Alyce and Johan is really needed. Both serve the same role in defending Ramos and one should get the job done well enough.

-Ropetus

Well, I don't think it would be too much of a hassle to compile all the erratas into one document by yourself an print it. Then you would have everything in the right place. Also, you could use small notes and add all the erratas to your book in an easily removable way.

I mean almost everyone one else has some kind of advance deploy or leapers that make it so that they can travel the table easly, but I am hoping that there will be some fast Merc stuff in the next book to help even that out.

Viktorias and Sisters in Spirit? Ronin are still very fast while near enemies. You can use Hamelin to get some extra speed from your minions as well.

-Ropetus

What about the hanged "smell fear" ability. Last I checked if they activate it on their activation they are still permitted to charge a model that fails moral on it's activation.

Exactly. Smell Fear has a duration while Drain Blood is an instantaneous effect that is resolved immediately when the Action is used. There is a clear difference between instantaneous and lasting effects.

-Ropetus

It's not a taken that there will be something next to Pandora. Not with her mobility.

If Pandora sees Rasputina across the table she would be a fool to take her Sorrow train along. No, in that case she doesn't Link to Sorrows and takes it solo as the Sorrows are just a liability waiting to get blasted by December's Curse. When she is alone she has the advantage as every attack against her requires a Wp Duel.

Tina can still get blasts from her own models but those are either so slow (Gamin, Moles, Golem) that catching Pandy with them should be a challenge or so valuable she often can't afford it (Cerberus) and definitely cannot get 3 casts off it. And this is what Pandy should use the Sorrows for: Link to enemy models so Raspy cannot bounce December's Curse off her Minions using Ice Mirror.

Any Master is easy to kill if played poorly. You could say Lilith is easy to kill when she cheats down her Df to get hit on purpose but that's not part of a serious conversation.

-Ropetus

It also most often requires 2 Mosquitoes to get their discard their entire hand since they start with only 3 Wd (unless you get lucky to get one of the 2 cards to cast Parasitic Infection) and Control Hands have 6 cards. Can you even kill off the Mosquito with Gremlin's Luck? I can't remember if it was possible but if it's not then you can only discard 2 cards most of the time. I doubt you can effectively do that every turn since you will need to shuffle those Mosquitoes a bit too much (basically: 2 to cast Gremlin's Luck every turn and the other two using Larva to generate more, and this also requires Som'er to generate 2 Gremlins every turn for Mosquito material).

On a critical turn it can be devastating but it's not really efficient to use it every turn.

-Ropetus

EDIT: If your opponents feel Gremlin's Luck is the highest threat you have, they might even not target 1 Wd Mosquitoes which means you have to waste Actions killing them and producing new ones if you want to cast Gremlin's Luck. However, those Mosquitoes could start casting Sooey!, some random Pig should run over it soon, at least after you cheat the Mosquito's Df down...

force the opponent to play top deck for the rest of the game!

No.

Even if you force them to discard their hand, it is not permanent. They will get a new hand of cards the next draw phase earliest, or sooner if they have card drawing abilities. Still, getting rid of their hand is an extremely powerful effect, especially when you follow it by throwing a bunch of Stampeding Pigs at your opposition.

Overall, they are great. They have the most durable Totems in the game and very hard to get rid of. Som'er also has three great spells for them to cast. The already mentioned Gremlin's Luck is much more handy when cast by them rather than Som'er. Sooey! is extremely useful tool in getting your Pigs in position to attack or to retreat them back to safety. Pull my Finger is unavoidable area damage which is always great.

Bring in 2 Mosquitoes, 2-3 Gremlins and a bunch of Pigs, maybe Hog Whisperer if you got the points. First turn have Som'er use Git Yer Bro once and Take a Swig on two Mosquitoes, move one Mosquito forward, have the other Larva a Gremlin, the new Mosquito Larva the other one and send the last one forward as well. Overall you gain an extra model, draw 4 cards and you have a healthy Gremlin for using Git Yer Bro next turn.

I think you could write an entire article about using Mosquitoes.

-Ropetus

She effectively defends herself at df 7 with an additional flip afterward that can also be cheated/soulstoned. With two ways to stop an attack dora is probs more tanky than perdita.

Not to mention that if you fizzle an attack once, she won't be there to get attacked anymore...

Anyone stating Pandora is easy to kill doesn't know what they're talking about. Of course there are counters which make her think about where she can safely go (See the Unseen, Blind Justice, Trail of Fear, Howl to name a few) but in general she is one of the hardest to take out.

-Ropetus

This should propably be in the rules forum...

(all) Actions use up all your available AP. It doesn't matter what kind of AP reducing (except Paralyzed, as that prevents activating altogether) effects you're affected by, you can still use an (all) Action.

It uses up even your extra AP from Fast, Casting/Melee Expert and similar abilities. (all) really means that is all you get to do.

However, you should check the Errata. Search is now only for Scavengers as the Search Action was completely broken for Ressers (try to imagine 6 Canine Remains generating Counters, passing them to Nico who turns them into 3 Flesh Constructs a turn...). However, you can still gain corpses if you bring Mortimer to dig them up for you. He was much improved in the Errata, granting him the ability to cheat the Exhume flip. Or simply just kill some of your enemies for corpses.

It is also sometimes worth it to chop a 2 SS doggie for a corpse and turn it to something better, like a Punk Zombie.

-Ropetus

(make a voodoo doll of a minion and obey it into combat with a higher threat, kill the doll with a Silurid and do it to another one next turn.)

Why do you need to kill the Doll?

-Ropetus

My plan is to kill off one of the gremlins with the young to get one blood counter. Then obey it up the field, and vice versa obey some of their models towards it. Then obey it Into Combat and kill something else to mature it in the end.

Why not just take a Mature Nephilim in the first place? It only costs 1 SS over a Young Nephilim + Gremlin and doesn't take any Actions. Extra Soulstones are not that important for Zoraida anyway since she already has 5 and doesn't have a high need for them (her defences are top notch already and Crystal Ball grants better card control that Stones).

It might make sense with Primordial Magic. Saves 2 SS and it will get sacrificed anyway when Zoraida summons her Voodoo Doll. Still I doubt it will be really useful.

I'm not sure if so many Gremlins is the best idea. After all they're not that good and cost an extra stone. Sure they bring in some ranged attacks you otherwise would not get but I doubt three is really needed.

How about this: Bring a Young, some Terror Tots and Primordial Magic. Slaughter the Prim Magic first turn for an early Grow. Something like:

Zoraida

Primordial Magic 2

Doppelganger 8

Young 6

Young 6

Terror Tot 3

Leaves Zoraida 5 SS

Now you can use both Youngs' Melee Expert Strikes on Primordial Magic, generate a Blood Counter and Grow the Tot on your first turn for three Young Nephilim. I think those are the best Nephilim for your buck really as they're much better than Tots but easier to hide than the Mature, and they hit just as hard if you trigger Flay. You could easily swap the second Young for Tot + Gremlin if you want to.

-Ropetus

My friend has also been running a list that consists of Misaki, Hamelin, Taelor, and of course the Viks, but it just seems to me like Hamelin is a waste of points in a 25ss game.

This should explain it all. Those three models add up to exactly 25 SS which would mean they don't have any Soulstones left for the game. Since Viktorias are so fragile, Soulstones are essential in keeping them alive. When the Viks have Soulstones for those critical resist flips, its much harder for Pandora to get an irresistable casting value on Project Emotions.

In that point range Hamelin should be dropped maybe for the Gunslinger and 5 Soulstones for Viktorias. Hamelin really doesn't have enough targets at this point level to be worth it.

-Ropetus

You should check the thread Extra Errata Items in the Rules Forum. Pandora cannot Pacify friendly models so her mobility is much reduced. In practice this means she will most likely have to use an AP or two each activation on moving instead of attacking which tones her down a bit. Also, Link was errataed to only working on Walks and at the end of activations which means Pandy cannot drag her entire Sorrow crew along with her.

Viktorias are really an ideal victim for Pandora. They all have manageable Wp and are better in offense than defense for maximized Self Loathing fun. Wd levels are also lowish all across the board.

Ronin which are the backbone of most Vikroria crews, don't actually work that well against Pandy. They have low Wp and are prime targets for Self Loathing with their on dmg flips and low number of Wd. Harmless even gives Pandy free Wp Duels to win (and push 4" each time).

Of the Mercenaries, Misaki should work against her quite nicely. She has a high Wp of 7 and her lower Df and Wd levels don't really matter since Pandora targets Wp and deals only 1 Wd most of the time (unless combined with a hoard of Sorrows next to you, but the errataed Pandora is less likely to manage that). She has access to Blast damage, which Pandora loathes and Wind could allow you to catch her in places you otherwise could not.

Taelor works in a similar way with her Wp 7, being a bit less manouverable but more resilient and hard hitting. The latter however works to Pandora's advantage with Self Loathing. I think Misaki works better against Pandy.

The Gunslinger should also be good, despite low Wp. He is quite immune to Self Loathing as he has high Wd and no melee weapons, which means he will just Bash himself for 0/1/2. He is very good at keeping Kade and Candy at bay thanks to Ruthless and high Cb.

Of note is also Hamelin. He also has a high Wp, large amount of Wd, weak melee weapon (so Self Loathing hurts less) and can throw some serious wrenches in Pandora's schemes. Obeying your own models may not be possible due to Pandora being nearby but he can Obey Pandora's Minions to attack her. A crazed Teddy aiming back at Pandora should make her worry and is quite a win win situation: either Teddy takes some Wd from losing the Wp Duel or Pandora takes some serious smackdown. He is very survivable too since Kade cannot target him. Also, Black Death is some untargeted damage for Pandora.

A key to beating Pandora is forcing her to use her resources (especially Soulstones) to stay alive. Attacking her with high Wp hard hitting models and force her to Soulstone the Expose Fears Duels should go a long way. She cannot throw those Soulstoned Project Emotions your way if she has used all Stones defending. This is not that easy though and a lot depends on your Control Hand.

-Ropetus

EDIT: Viktoria could also hire Jack Daw and a bunch of The Hanged. Then go hit Pandora with one of them and see her start crying when she has on Wp Duels for the rest of the game.

Exactly, the general "Unlisted durations last until the Closing Phase" only makes sense on abilities with durations. Quick Draw, Smell Fear etc. have a duration by their nature. Actions like Drain Blood, Eat Your Fill and Last Rites are instantaneous effects and do not have any durations by nature.

-Ropetus

Would be nice to have a read but that annoying pink text seriously hurts my eyes...

Any chance you could change the text colour to make it readable? ;P

-Ropetus

On Quick Draw (errataed) there is a mention that it lasts "until this model makes the Strike or the End Closing Phase". Same with No Escape.

On Drain Blood there is no mention of duration, therefore it is an instantaneous effect. Seamus' Trail of Fear doesn't state it either but ti's an Aura which are lasting effects by their nature (otherwise it would be a pulse). It's the same as with Hoarcat Pride's Eat Your Fill: "This model may immediately use this Action after it kills a model...", a regular instant effect (0) Action with a specific extra requirement.

(Don't have the book here with me so those wordings might not be entirely accurate.)

-Ropetus

I think we need an official voice on this one to be honest as it isn't all that clear.

How is it not clear? Drain Blood is a (0) Action like all those you listed, it only has an additional requirement for its use, just like Eat Your Fill. It is still subject to the restriction of only one (0) Action per activation.

Since Obey grants only one (1) Action, you can't Drain Blood since you don't have a (0) Action at your disposal during Obey. Obey is one Action, not an activation.

However, things that grant additional activations, like Reactivate, would allow you to Drain Blood twice during the turn.

I't propably a balancing thing to allow only one use per activation. Otherwise Maturing those Young Nephilim could be a bit too easy as Lilith could gather 2 Blood a turn with ease in certain situations.

-Ropetus