karn987

Eh I always viewed Pandora as a direct counter to everyone because she doesn't do anything special vs Perdita that she doesn't do to anyone else that would directly effect her in a way that is significant that it doesn't do the same to others. If that made sense..... I think I just murdered the English Language >.> But yeah, Pandora just happens to be a challenge for every master in the game. Perdita is the master that has something to combat that that she can't take away. And See the Unseen is great vs most things, but amazing vs Pandora as it removes her only real defense. Plus most of the family is stubborn (except for Papa Loco who is actually weaker vs her).

Yeah that one =D To many ability names, I forget them or mix them up so I go with a descriptive nick name when I dont have the book handy.

My first major piece of advice with Pandora is start with just her box set and play that for several games. Play it untill you don't make many mistakes any more, especially beginner mistakes. Then, and only once you have played it till you have a hold on what she and her crew does, would I suggest you consider swapping out models. Her box set is one of the best designed and quickly helps you get attuned to her style of play and what she is all about. But as people have said, her learning curve is a bit steep. But thats fine, it's not that bad. Just read your stats of all your models a few times and take your time as you play, you'll get it in no time ;D About the SS Cache, she does generally want to go into play with at least 5ss left for her use during the game. The main reason, Project Emotions. She wants to be able to SS that casting total to high for models to resist it so she can layer the negative flip on Wp duels on her targets. After that she generally has the complete advantage as a model with a negative flip to a duel, can not cheat =D Little tricks like that you will figure out as you go along, some are obvious like Project Emotions and others are more subtle. But read around, there are a good amount of posts dedicated to helping people out with her. Both as playing her and going against her. One last piece of advice, if you have a choice of who you go against at the start, don't go against Sonnia or Perdita. Sonnia can counter your spells and really make your life hard and Perdita is a direct counter to you. This is not saying you can't beat them, but they are some of the hardest matches you will ever have to play. So if you think your up for it, go for it. You'll learn a lot playing your toughest opponents. Also if your in for a bit of heavy reading, I have a tactica file composed of my thoughts and a bunch of others you may find interesting. PM me if you want a look at it =D. I don't have it posted here because it is huge >.>, though one of these days when I finish polishing it Ill get it up in multiple posts.

Sniper has Errata btw, but it doesn't change this situation. You would not be able to ignore the shooting into Melee rules because of sniper. What this would let you do is this: Say Killjoy was on your side and blocking your LOS to Lady J who he was in combat with. Sniper would let you shoot past Killjoy and shoot at Lady J but you would still have to follow the shooting into melee rules for the shot.

She actually doesn't exist in the game yet. Only regular Pandora exists right now. Avatar Pandora is just a cool model at the moment though Avatar versions of some Masters are still planned last time I heard about it.

Yay the change was pulled! Levy is back to what he was. But the SPA change is there but it is a good one 100%. They needed it because of the Rider and other quick constructs. But I wish they could keep pace with the Desolation Engine and any other upcoming Levy models :/. Hopefully it makes it to the revised errata soon though. So don't lose hope! Wyrd is a great company, they wont screw you over like some others =D They will fix it Im sure.

:hmmmm: Hmmm so that would no longer consume the Waif he comes back from. So it doesn't change any of his mechanics then except he comes back in B2B with the Waif... Glad to here their is discussion going on, now to wait patiently.. :twitch:

Hmm you have a point. They do generate counters that you could use. So maybe its not that bad from that stand point. But it's still clumsy. Levy was self contained and now he's not (He could do his entire life cycle through his own abilities). Now he needs to depend on bringing the right crew and not going against the wrong crew. That rubs the wrong way.

You can, we touched upon this earlier in the thread. You can use their bodies to make new Waifs but this is still really bad for Levy. Your using a body you would normally use to make another SPA from (having it drop a scrap and not a corpse). Considering how often SPA's die in most games and how important they can be for him, its not a good solution either. It forces you to make the choice between the two, but considering how rapidly Levy will need Corpse counters (About one every other turn at least) and how critical scrap counters can be its not condussive to a good play style because it fights for a critical resource for the crew and there really is no choice... the Waifs will always have to win out if you want to keep Levy alive. I like that it makes you take the choice, but if your playing a Vanilla Levy list (Ie Desolation Engine, SPA's, and Alyce) your relying heavily upon the SPA's to get up field and do their job. Having to get them killed to make Waifs disrupts his fragile play style. It also doesn't give him much of a choice in his crew lay out as he will always want to have at least 2 models that can leave Corpse counters for his Waifs throughout the game.

Look at the new wording for Eternally Shackled. It currently says: "Eternally Shackled: If this model is killed or sacrificed during the turn, replace a Hollow Waif" and the replace is the main issue with this. Because the Waif is replaced with Levy all the bad parts of Replace kick in AND the Waif wont come back because the Waif only returns if it has been killed or sacrificed. So the waif that was used to bring him back doesn't come back. The basic idea of the errata seems to be to force Levy to have to make new Waifs more often. Basically when he returns to play, the waif he returned from is consumed and wont be back. The problem is, Replace is bad wording for it and Bugking has already said it should be place instead of replace. But even then, what happens to the Waif? There is still a lot of confusion about the whole thing going on with the apparent misprint and what it really means and the whole impact on Levy.

If you read my posts you would know that I agree with the change, that Levy needed to consume the Waif he comes back through. But at the same time, he needs a reliable way to create more when faced with nonliving and undead models. You shouldn't have to go to Canine remains to get what you need. He should be able to do it himself through his own abilities. Hense my suggestion to change Nectroic Unmaking to let you make either SPA or Waifs. Or something along this line. I've been Levy long enough to have a good enough feel for him to realize how subtle changes like this will effect him. A lot of people have to. But you are right, it needs playing to see what the effect is fully on the field as you often realize more when you do this. Obviously I fully intend to do this, it should go without saying Rope ;D. So then Levy is even more screwed in this respect and this change is even worse then people are realizing.

Really? ARG! Come on >< The Replace BS is supposed to be a mistake though. At least thats what Bugking was saying. So hopefully Sketch corrects his post ASAP. I slept on the change and mulling it over in my head and I really think this is a very very bad change alone. I think Wyrd has just done it's first cuddle. Its a very bad cuddle to. It's not like Levy was dominating the fields of peoples games. He's hard enough to play as is, now he has to spend all game hunting for Waifs, thats incredibly lame. Or you have to bring a dog and dig up bodies constantly, thats also incredibly lame. @Wyrd: Guys please rethink this. This change is not a good one as it is. It really needs more work. It ruins Levy.

You could kill yourself with this because a cost of the ability is not the Wd loss. It is a result of the ability. So by my understanding you could kill yourself with this. But remember, when Levy comes back into play, you lose your entire hand. So you lose all those cards. The main use of this is if the Engine has already activated this turn and is say at 4 wds left. You know its going to die, and your hand isn't very strong. So you decide to sac it and draw the 4 cards hoping for some good ones. Yes you take the wounds but this has actually be useful once or twice before. It is a strange ability and most people completely ignore it. It seems like an ability that was cool in idea but never really got tested much and ended up on the final rules as if someone sorta forgot about it heh. Thats my impression of it at least.

EricJ and the rest at Wyrd are really good guys, they usually make the right decision in the end. I think with all the negative feed back they are getting about this change something will be done to balance this out. Don't despair yet =D That change to Levy isn't even official yet untill it hits the errata page. Still time to salvage it.

+1 Yeah this needs searious play testing, I have a bad feeling about it right now

Np, its always good to ask questions if you have them ;D People here will always answer.

From a Levy players point of view, I would say focus on the crew. Especially if SPA's are brought. Kill them quickly and try to deny me the tokens they leave behind and just keep the preasure up. He can't quite res his units as well as the Res masters, but he can still do a good job. As far as dealing with Levy himself, he's rather easy to kill. The hard part is keeping him down. But even then, if you get the chance to kill him at the start of a turn, do it. It denies him his activation and renders his Waif's nearly paralyzed. So then if you can sweap them up, your golden. Also if Alyce is on the table, prioritize her and kill her quickly. The 2 cards she gives Levy is huge for him and she is a killer at ranged. Sonnia is a pretty good match for him due to her counter spell, but you gotta be in the right place to use it. Perdita can shoot down his crew if they aren't careful, using the SPA's no target thingy is what they have to do to move up field. So try to work around it. For Lady J, just go in swinging. SPA's and the Desolation Engine are undead/constructs so your good vs them. Just basically bring all your power to bear and try to bring down the crew before you go after him, unless of course you get the chance to kill him at the start of a turn if he hasn't activated yet. Basically, if Levy has already activated and you kill him and can't get his waifs, you did the levy player a favor and gave him a new hand and a fresh Leveticus. So try to rush Levy when you get the chance, but otherwise focus on the crew. @Deadpool. I don't know where the link is, but its been ruled several times he can come back. If you really think about it, during Slow to Die the model doing it is at 0 Wds. So if you then get the heal from his ability, bang! You live again. Sketch has ruled on it several times, search the answered question section.

Ahhh right, your right Lalo. I forgot about the previous discussion. All the models he can take are part of his theme even if they are not his special models. But still, I just don't feel right about doing that :/ Probably just me though I guess...

I didn't phrase that the way I meant to. Kudos to me for not rereading something before I post it >< But you missed my point. My point was that if something is threatening your Waif's, you deal with it. You focus on it as much as it will take to do it, and then you move onto the next unit. Systematically take down your opposition. It's an effective counter to people who try to get to them. You can effectively hide them and limit the enemies lanes of approach so heavily that if they do go for them, they are walking into your trap. Unless you play with very little terrain or put Levy in an awkward situation where there is not a lot of terrain to protect his Waifs and even himself, it works. There are many fast units yes, I've had Pigs come stampeding up and manage to take them out. I've had them killed by Ronin when they used to be able to just dash up field. But the key to dealing with those threats is as I said, simple. You kill them. You prioritize them and then eliminate them. Using your Waifs as bate works well if you have the cards and SS to ensure you can A) kill whatever it is coming up and keep levy safe for that turn.

Ehh... fair enough but that is such a lame way to do that. I never liked doing that to begin with. Besides, he shouldn't have to go outside of his own theme crew to do what he needs to do.

I just use Teddy as a Proxy for his as they are the same base size. OTherwise use the Mature Nephilim for him. Either work. My experience with him has been mixed. He is a bit unlike the rest of Neverborn in that he is very straight forward in what he does. But at the same time, he does that very very well. You are correct with the assessment of all of his abilities. He his like a mac truck. But he doesn't have a ton of defensive abilities. Primarily I get by with keeping him out of LOS untill it's combat time and then generally make a Mounted Combat action to ride in, strike someone with whatever ability I think I need on me, and then riding back out of LOS. If I have to stand and fight with him, I know he will probably die. So I go with Noon for Wreathed in Flames and let people burn as they try to kill him. Regen 1 does help him out a bit to survive little scratches, so it gives Morning good use for its hard to Wound 1 (meaning the enemy can rarely cheat damage against him). Otherwise if I'm playing Pandora with him, I generally try to protect him by putting Dementia on people near him. Or just going for my old motto, "Dead Foes don't make you dead" ;D

Thankfully the fix to link was introduced so it kept the best number of Sorrows for Pandora at 3. But using it the way you described does work. I've experimented with this before and had some very good results. It gives you a lot of killing power, but your really relying on just 3 models to do most of the work. The sorrows are just along for the ride and the chance to get a Melancholy or a Doldrums off in the right place. But even still, it does work. Just don't link all 5 to Pandora, but you know that. ;D Don't worry about bringing Teddy and Kade together. I rarely ever bring both in the same list and thats fine. Both work amazingly well without the other one and even when you have both, Where's Teddy isn't all that useful in most situations. Pandora really only needs 1 beat stick. 2 is over kill unless you are at high points. As for your number of insig models, yeah its a little high. But it can work. Really only Reconoiter is going to give you trouble and in that case, focus on killing the enemy. Take Schemes based on killing the enemy and just wipe them out. Try to keep Candy, Kade, and Pandora alive so that you can at least get the secondary objective and then net yourself 2 - 4 points from Schemes and you stand a decent chance of winning most games.

Yup, Pandora is a very powerful master. Congrats on your good game vs the Ortega's, they are usually a huge pain in the ass for her. She isn't slow at all is she? =D To many people keep saying that and I just wonder what they are not seeing. Her Pacify/Incite chains still carry her around the field like a rocket. Why did you cast Dementia on the sorrows? You gain nothing from that and actually stand to lose your sorrows that way. Melancholy is also another great use for Sorrows. Have Pandora bring them up field and then have them layer on the negative flips. Or have them go up first and do it so that when she ends her activation, they come back to her. But either way, you now have Negative flips on the enemy and that means no more cheating =D

Of course, always keep your eyes open for any effects that can cause a Wp duel. The more you have, the greater your chance of winning.

@LastDinosaur: Very observant of you and this is the big problem with the new wording. I think the new wording is lacking in this respect as Levy needs the working cycle of his death and rebirth to be as quick and as smooth as possible. Not coming back within 6" of a Waif is a big mistake. I think it needs to have him place within 6" of the waif, but otherwise keep it with the new wording so he has to keep making more Waif's if he wants to keep dieing and coming back. The other huge issue with this whole thing is, what does Levy do if there are no living or undead models on the board? Then he is screwed, and I don't think thats a good thing. He literally gets into a near auto lose scenario where he can only die twice and then its over for him. Seeing as dieing nearly each turn is extremely important to him, I don't think this is right. @Sketch and Eric This change may have it's good side most of the time, but Sketch and Eric etc. I don't think you should do this. It makes him nearly 100% auto lose vs all construct crews or anything else in the future that may not be living or undead. I don't think it is a good idea at all. The easiest way to solve this is rework his Necrotic Unmaking spell and let him chose to make a SPA or a Hollow Waif. With that little mod he's fine again. No more near 100% auto lose vs non living and undead crews. But otherwise, think about it. He is already very hard to play correctly to begin with, this is just making him even harder to play. It's also introducing a crew match up in which Levy has next to no chance. Unless he is feeding off his own crews corpse counters to generate his Waifs, he has basically lost at Crew selection. I don't think that adds to a good model or a good balance in a game. It's also a HUGE change to his play style and how people will be forced to operate him. All in all, I think it's a bad idea alone, but still a good idea for forcing him to have to make more Waifs. Given the change to Necrotic Unmaking it should be fine. But yeah.... I think it would take a lot of fun out of Levy without it. Or something to help him keep his Waifs rolling out each turn vs non living and undead crews.