Teluriel12

That is my (and other peoples) assumption...Im also mainly talking about Collodi here since I can see that the other dead masters are simply replaced by other models... I really dont see a new puppet master in any of the new or old masters.  Even Zoraida is not a 100 percent candidate imo.

but I agree, untill Wyrd tries to shed some further clarity on any of this, everything is speculation.  Ive made the decision to just send my purchase back to the retailer and will probably wait until third edition is ints final stages before I and my game group willpurchase anything.

15 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

...

I, personally, believe there are business decisions behind these choices more than strict adherence to fluff. Someone wanting to play Lynch is going to probably now buy more ten Thunders models, Outcasts are going to purchase Gremlins for zipp, and if you used Coryphee and Mannequins with Collodi you might want to buy Colette and, since you're venturing in Arcanist territory, go ahead and pick up Marcus.

...

 

I think you are right here...in the end Wyrd is a company who wants to sell as much as possible...while i agree streamlining a game is natural evolution and shakeups do happen...the argument of the story and fluff to make these changes is just an excuse to shake things up and hopefully will steer people into buying new shiny things...even shiny things they already had to start with.

Again, its their game and they are a company so in that respect I can understand these business decisions...but they are walking a thin line for at least a portion of their playerbase.

8 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

Fair enough, but nothing to suggest massive amounts of models will be gone - for example Collodi's puppets. You may not have Collodi anymore, but I imagine that most of his normal crew will still be usable by other masters and may have new roles as a result. 

lets says this is correct...in what faction? Do i now have to expand Everborn or will they move over elsewhere? Everything is speculation at this point...so my course of action will be: stop giving money to Wyrd untill they are more clear on this.

19 minutes ago, Adran said:

Honestly, play with what you have for the moment. We don't know when they expect 3rd to be released so I wouldn't just abandon what you got. I'm not a regular event runner, but most TO s I know are likely to allow dead man crews unless there is a good reason not to. Which we won't know till much nearer the release.

Look, I understand that there is a lot of uncertainty and people try to keep telling me everything will be fine and maybe it will...but the frustration of my purchase a week ago wont go away. Simply by the fact that its  not a given that , after a certain period of time, the use of these masters is a certainty.  People are also guessing about when the new release will be so the full year might even turn out to be six months.

I feel that  collodi had a very distinctive feel with the puppet theme, which I dont immediatly see replaced or supported anymore in the future.

Ive tried several times now with Wyrd to come to some sort of resolution about my potential edge case...but they refuse to even reply.

let me put it another way:

would you, knowing what you know now ever advise a new player, like myself, to start the hobby by buying one of the dead mens hand masters?

I appreciate the effort of you guys to at least try to make me feel better and help me out...but the fact is that I feel gutted about the situation which is not further helped along with how Wyrd is imo stepping around any questions and concerns people like myself have.  Might be that they are not allowed to...but at this point that really doesnt matter to me.

again...thanks for the help!

Thanks for the help everyone...a lot more helpful than the company that should be promoting their game...in my opinion their webstite url tells what they are all about.

looks like Zoraida might be the one.

4 hours ago, Mason said:

I actually said, "Collodi will still be playable in casual play, as well as in tournaments that allow the "Dead Man's Hand" models."

Just clarifying since you used quotation marks but then paraphrased me. 

Just wondering what your “clarification” is further clarifying? Does it really change the message?

Shame Wyrd representatives dont answer the actual concerns a part of their playerbase or potential playerbase is voicing and rather make statements like above.

3 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

... and then sit on the shelf waiting for better times. Not promising prospect I must say.

Let's hope all will be good with these masters...

The answer from Mason was clear. “You can use him in casual play and dead mans hands tournaments”...there was no “who knows what the future might bring”

1 minute ago, wobbly_goggy said:

140 pounds?!?! First purchase??  Have you bought all of the options available at once? You don't have cash to burn but you can immediately spunk 140 quid on a crew????
Christ alive, I wish I had that kind of cash! Crew box, assemble, play a few games, maybe add something, and add options when possible would be more like the norm for gaming I would have thought!!!
 

There is something planned for Collodi. maybe he's be part of the new faction? Who knows? But you can still play with him before 3rd ed comes out. Though 140 quid's worth of minis might take a while to assemble, let alone paint...

I saved six months for that, putting aside whenever i could and not being able to do other stuff...that was my choice.  But normally when you make a purchase you kind of expect that the company selling the product doesnt invalidate it (I gues Wyrd tournaments wouldnt allow for them!

But thanks for your empathy...you clearly know everyhing about my personal life and how I should run it.

3 hours ago, wobbly_goggy said:

Anyone strictly competitive will have enough minis that it's less of an issue.

Also you can't please all the people all the time. The strictly competitive is a small percentage. Keeping more people mote interested is more important. 

Side note - strictlycompetitive Nico was frankly horrible to play against.  The main purpose of a game is for both people to enjoy it.

There are plenty more masters to chose from. Far more than have gone. So you can use the dead ones for fun, non dead ones for competition. Don't bother learning them for competitive play...and that's that

My issue is that iv just spend 140gbp on a collodi crew as the first purchase ive ever made with Wyrd...whatever reasoning people try to bring forward is not helping at all...I dont have cash or time to burn.

Again, ive asked them if I can swap these unopened boxes with other models/masters that I know will be supported and allowed wherever I go, but so far there is not a single reply by anyone from Wyrd.  Not in my personal box, not in any part of this thread where multiple people have voices concerns.

7 hours ago, lusciousmccabe said:

Are these models you have or are considering picking up?

These are the mosels ive bought like yesterday after saving for six months...only to learn now that they wont receive further support in 3d edition...official answer i received is that i can still use them for casual play or at the whim of the TO....yaaaaay (im really gutted about this)

2 hours ago, SeymourGutz said:

I don't usually post on forums but created an account just to offer this feedback.

Invalidating purchases in common practice (even if not totally due to technicality) has in the past and will always make me blacklist a mini wargame forever. This hobby costs a lot in both time and money so it's essential to be able to trust that investment will not be arbitrarily or cynically discarded. It's unclear so far if that will be the practical result, but the phrasing is concerning. 

There is never a good enough reason to do this. See how Warmachine handles story advancement and changes to characters while simultaneously staying rules legal. Personally I don't read any of the fluff and couldn't care less about background stories in a strategy game.

 

Fully agree with this...I basically bought a full collodi crew two weeks ago (yesterday received the notification that it was sent) and i learn now that it has been invalidated.  Wyrd apparently sticks to the argument that i can still use him for casual play or dead mans hands tournaments...while thats technically true, for me its the same as not being able to use them at all.  

Ive asked them if i.can present my purchase bill and whether i can swap those models with other models that still are going to be supported fluff and new model wise.  It would show some good will to people like myself in this situation (i really dont have money to burn).

I just spent six months of savings on a malifaux crew. Yesterday i received the email that my collodi crew was sent...today i received the message that Collodi will no longer be supported...

can someone help me out what other master can make most use out of these models without me needing to save again for a load of money?

2 minutes ago, Zalabar said:

Sorry, had to highlight this one; this argument is objectively false. It has been brought up regularly with miniature games and edition changes; I've seen it for Warmahordes v1 to 2, then 2 to 3, Malifaux 1 to 2, and WFB to AoS. I could say it about Relic Knights too, but someone would've had to play Relic Knights.

The cultural pressures of tourney play, new shiny models, new rule support, and comparative ease of pick up games grind out the older version every time. These games are not RPGs, where the competitive players are counteracted by the difficulty in picking up a new system, and there's not a terribly functional concept for competitive play, and pick up games aren't really a thing. You noted Necromunda, which is a really good counter example. I am curious how many people play Chainmail. Or more pertinently, Warhammer 40k 6th ed. Or Squats.

To place the onus on someone to compete against a newer edition of the same game because they're frustrated by a surprise sunset on their purchase is not cool. Please stop that one.

I disagree on 2 as a viable argument, as it essentially gets to the core of the concerns; the impression is clearly that these purchases will not be supported when the assertion is that they would be. Telling them that they might get support is kinda missing the reason they're annoyed.

Arguement 3 (Dead Hand and TO etc) are addressed elsewhere, but generally you get more people playing with accepted tourney structure and minimal adjustments. Unless there is a very compelling counter reason, Dead Hands are probably going to be exceptions.

Arguement 4 is true. Of course, so were Avatars. I can't say I've used one outside of the beta test, but I might be very wrong here. What have you seen?

 

 

Fully agree with this...also: Ive just asked for some kind of positive feedback/story to people who are in my situation from Mason.  

Im sad to say Ive received as only reply”you can use Collodi in casual play and in tournaments which will allow dead mans hand”...not even a glimmer off “were sorry about your situation”.

10 minutes ago, Malovane said:

I did read your post.
1.  You still have plenty of time to get value playing M2E.  Even after the release of M3E, it doesn't stop you from playing M2E.
2.  It is absolutely not clear that wyrd will not put out further models.  Collodi may get an update in the future.  There is also good probability that new models may be of use in his crew.
3.  He absolutely can be used in tournaments, at TO discretion.  This has already been stated.  You may not be able to use him in every tournament, but some use does not equate to no use.
4.  You can still use him in casual play.

Therefore, there is still the possibility to get value from your purchase.  It is entirely up to you.  The only way your purchase becomes a waste is if you never make use of it.

I see a lot of maybes, absolutely not clear and so forth...If I wanted to gamble, I will play the lottery.

So I have to spend time, money and effort to painting a crew, where I will be at the whim of an individual whether I can play at a tournament?  Or do I now have to buy a backup crew + additional miniatures just to be sure that I can play at all.

The arguments that you bring forward really dont help at all.

2 minutes ago, Mason said:

You will be surprised!

Can we have an official reaction to concerns like people who are in my kind of situation have?

4 minutes ago, Malovane said:

I really dislike this argument.  No money was wasted.  Old models/rules still exist and can still be used.  They had their time but are no longer supported.  Times and technology advance and the old eventually gets replaced.  I don't expect movies to be released on VHS anymore; the advent of dvd and blu-ray doesn't make prior money spent on VHS wasted.  They got their use and now we move on.  I don't expect old video game systems to continue being supported.  Money that I spent on those old generations was hardly wasted because a new generation came into existence.  CCGs and LCGs have cards that fall out of rotation or get restricted/banned.  Backwards compatibility is actually a rarity, all things considered.  I would argue that most companies actually embrace this cycle of decay and user turnover.  Planned obsolescence is an extremely common practice, that many industries actually thrive upon   It occurs in nearly ever entertainment medium that comes to mind.  Yet somehow, every time there is an edition change in a miniature's game this logical fallacy regarding money being wasted and purchases being invalidated surfaces.  

I don't expect anyone to like planned obsolescence, but I would hope it be understood if not accepted at this point.  I can fully understand and appreciate the frustrations and concerns of a new edition, but to say money was wasted is an over simplified exaggeration.  If you bought models/rules for M2E and never played a single game and never made use of the models, then I would agree money was wasted, but certainly not as a result of Wyrd's actions or the creation of M3E.  The fact that these "retired" masters are still getting M3E rules further invalidates the argument.  Its also been stated that they will be balanced for tournament play.  If the tournament is not narrative focused, I imagine most TOs will be fine with their use.  

Please read my first post...i literally ordered a full collodi crew and additional miniatures two weeks ago...i had to save six months for those...please tell how Ive not wasted my money.

-its clear that wyrd will not put further models out for collodi which is the most important argument for me

-i cant use him in tournaments (dead mans hand being a false argument)

You cant imagine how frustated and gutted I feel about this.  I literally had to save for six months for the collodi crew I wanted to play (casual and in tournaments), which is also the first Ive ever bought for this game, Only now i learn that

- yippie, you get a new stat card

- you cant use him n tournaments anymore unless the TO will allow for it...basically saying that I cant use him.

Im gutted..I dont have a lot of money I can spare for various reasons and you now tell me that the effort it took is basically down the drain.

Thanks, real thanks for the warm feeling I get by hearing that the story will forward at least. Absolutely gutted.