Gort77

1 minute ago, Adran said:

Gaining ground 2 has that rule for its strategy. If you play earlier gaining grounds or the rulebook then you can still use summons for strategies. 

Oh, ok.  Didnt think to DL that, just grabbed the FAQ and Errata.  Thanks for the reply.

Ok, so I have obviously missed something in this FAQ/Errata because I'm not seeing this change about summoned models not being able to interact with strategy markers.  Can someone please tell me were this change is?

So, i have not really paid much attention to the Outcast forums during the beta, as they are a secondary faction for me.  From the little i have read about Tara it sounds like she almost needs to bring Aiounus in every list, is that true?

1 hour ago, Outplayed said:

Really I find it's to guarantee something does or does not happen, and by that I mean: I need to use my Four Winds Punch to push that model, and it's Df 5, so I know that a Chi-boosted 13 from my hand WILL GUARANTEE the action goes off provided I do not flip a black joker on the initial duel.  Or by contrast, I know I can put Sensei Yu here with 3 Chi, have a couple cards in hand, and know that there is NO WAY a straight damage flip will get through, and in most cases if I have a couple high cards I am guaranteed to survive his defense.  This is what I see the Monk keyword ability as really granting us.  Across the entire gamespace attacks win over defense - they have a slight edge.  In a tie the attacker wins - a defender must beat the attacker's stat - made even more difficult by the fact that most attack accuracy stats are higher than the Df they target.  The Monks are the only keyword in the game that can say 'your 13 MIGHT NOT get through'.

 

If I dont have Chi, I need it.  So to answer a little more directly my first impulse is to make sure a model has Chi because it is the more widely used resource.  Chi can be used to boost the final duel total of any duel, Focus on the other hand can be used in OPPOSED DUELS only - and while it offers a significant advantage over Chi in some ways, Chi is a generally more useful resource.

 

If I have 3 Chi and need to get something done against an enemy model the next concentrate would be to Focus +1.

 

Both resources are incredibly useful, Chi is more widely beneficial into the unknown - but nothing beats focus in taking models off the board.

Thanks for expanding on your initial statement, you definitely made me see how powerful Chi can be.  I might not this Harness Chi looks exciting but it sounds like a great work horse ability.  Knowing this now, in addition to the most recent changes, the Monks are looking a lot more attractive as a crew.

I haven't seen much said about the Charm Warder.  Has anyone had any experience with them?  Are they better with Monks or Qi and Gong?

19 hours ago, Outplayed said:

I dont mean this in a harsh way - I understand the curiosity behind it, but this question isn't very informative without context.  The answer: whichever the monk needs.

 

Say I have a high river monk who needs to accomplish an offensive goal, and needs chi to do so - does it have chi?  If not, we will want 1 or 2.

 

Does that same model already have Chi, and need to make the same decision?  In that case, if this model already has a couple Chi it will be better to have focus to spend on the attack action.

No worries, i understand the question needs context to answer properly.  I was just wondering how often players found they were using Harness Chi.  Reading the ability, a +2 to a duel total doesn't excite me as much as other keyword abilities, but i can see how it can be useful as many of my duels have a difference of less then 5.

I have not had a chance to use any of the Monks, let alone play a Shenlong Crew, i was wondering from those who have used a Monk crew, what do you feel is better to spend your concentrate action on, Focus or Chi?

59 minutes ago, SerZaka said:

I agree with you about the Tengu , this thing rised even in another thread . For the same cost you have a Katashiro that is almost identical but more aggressive in melee. A Tengu can make a 6"->6"->interact , the Katashiro 5"->place 5"(6")-> interact 

Tengu also have Guiding Presence that can help mitigate distracted and slow, as well as A Song of Night and Day; which is a mass heal of 1 that you can trigger a second mass heal.  It may be only 1 point of health, but it is the only mass heal we have access to.  Not sure how useful that would be in a game though, but it is a nice big area.

I do agree though that i am struggling to find a reason to take Tengu unless against specific crews that use distracted or slow.

4 hours ago, SerZaka said:

Both McCabe and Cornelius Basse during the closed beta had a Faction X tag near the faction tag (they were multifaction) . So the Wastrel keyword will have probably new models in that faction usable also by TT. Like YanLo that have half models in the Ressers Faction 

Oh cool, Im happy that Wastrels will get more keyword models.  So this new faction is coming out with M3e release? 

So i only got to play McCabe once and unfortunately due to time constraints was only able to make it through two turns before having to end the game.  In that game i got three upgrades out, two on Turn 1 and one on Turn 2.  Luna can both dig up scrap and scrounge for relics, then with the upgrade she can use the Take This! bonus action.  The Huckster can place a scrap with a trigger from False Claim (not reliable since you need pure luck or a card in your hand) for McCabe to use on his turn.  Don't forget that Luna extends the range of Take This! to 12" if she is within 3" of a model, allowing her to dig up a relic, hand it off to a Wastrel buddy, then the Wastrel can use the Take This! to give the Artifact to a model up to 12" away, which also moves Luna into base contact with the target.  This is how i ran my first turn, by using Mcabe's Ride with Me bonus action i was able to pull a model forward as a target for a Ruffians Take This! action to place Luna forward.  Turn 2 involved another Huckster's False Claim trigger.  You don't have to bunch up as much as you might think to get Artifacts out, but your first turn is definitely perdictable, and maybe part of your second.

I don't think McCabe was designed to put out every single upgrade he can in a game (i'm thinking maybe 3-4 at most), but he does have the issue that on Turn 1 he is predictable, and later turns he can have issues getting upgrades out.  I loved playing McCabe in the two turns i got, his crew was really fun, but i can see going through all this on Turn 1 will get tiring and make me less thrilled to play him; and if getting upgrades out in later turns is difficult that will make him less fun.  I really like the idea of McCabe looting corpses and piles of junk for cool relics, but this can create a problem when it comes to getting the core mechanic of him to work.

I have nothing to say about Looted Supplies, its useless.  Why waste time and actions just to possibly draw a good card?  I would rather work towards my schemes and strategy.

1 minute ago, bedjy said:

It was announced during close beta

That a new faction would being coming out or that a new faction would be coming out and it would contain specific keyword models, like Wastrel?

9 hours ago, Shadow Effigy said:

Mcabe is right now in a weird place. His crew is pure scheme. Besides seider their is no punch. Whatever is coming from the new faction for him I hope they are tuff.

Why would you assume, that if there will be a new faction added, that the new faction would have Wastrel keyword models in it?  I thinks its pretty obvious that, while cross-faction keywords exist, they are not common.

What is wrong with Wastrels being a scheming focused crew?

When i look at the Monk keyword there seems to be very little interaction between models (other then healing).  I would like to see more actions that can target friendly without damaging them.  Let Wind Blast push friendlies without doing damage, that way Yu and WRMs can do more then one thing.  Take the Preparations trigger off LRMs healing action and give them an action that gives a friendly Focus +1 or a Chi token.  To me changes like these would at least put the Monks on my radar as a possible crew to play.

17 minutes ago, Paradigm said:

I would like to see more reports of people trying Snipers, all Monks, Ohaguro Bettari, Tengu, Kamaitachi, all of Youko's crew, Obsidian Statue, Brothers and Terracotta Warriors. All of those models worry me to some extent, mostly in the way that they might not see play or in that I haven't seen anyone even try them.

I know right now, Tengu don't really light my scoreboard to hire OR summon.  Why are they 5ss, is it because of the Song of Night and Day and flicker?  They just don't seem worth it for 5ss.

If nothing happens to TT Bros I will probably take at least one once in awhile because they seem like a nice defensive model.  Im not sure about the Obsidian Statue though, i like that it can protect models by give cover but Df 3 worries me a lot and the Terracotta Warrior, i just don't know about.

I was wondering if anyone has tried the Charm Warders with Shenlong at all.  They seem like a solid model with nice utility that could be nice for Shen's crew.

17 hours ago, bedjy said:

it's quite good with the hucksters, with their Inflated Worth trigger, they can put it in base contact with 2 model at the same time they. It has not been good in every game I've played and that could be interesting to have it increased to 1" from a corpse or scrap rather than base contact. But Wastrels also have quite a few card draw available.

Im not sure what you mean by "quite a few", they have Hucksters Sales Pitch, the artifact upgrade and Sandeep's sword trigger.  I'm not counting Looted Supplies because it requires wasted actions to make it work as of now beyond the first turn.  Im not sure why it wasn't an aura to begin with since a lot of models have abilities that use markers and those abilities are either auras or just require a marker within X".  I really hope something is changed because i really like the idea of my treasure hunters pilfering supplies off of corpses and piles of scrap.

Has anyone gotten any use out of this ability?  I haven't gotten to play McCabe much, but the when i did i was never in a situation were this ability ever came up.

1 hour ago, solkan said:

So the rules on Control specify:

Please indicate your honest evidence for doubting whether some of a model's rules continue working while controlled.

 

An honest mistake about the rules, a simple mentioning of the rules on cotrolling enemy model's would have sufficed, no need for snide comments.

3 hours ago, Rugh Z'ull said:

Thats a good solution. I would only change that tokens may only be spent by not models of the same keyword, but only models of the crew that generated them. That will save us from situations of the same keywords on the opponet models

Should we change it to mention conditions as well?  I mean i realize Blaze of Glory from the Wildfire keyword doesn't kill the model like flicker does, but it does create the situation were obey is stronger against that crew then a crew that doesn't have an ability that uses tokens/conditions for bonuses.

Then again, Obey doesn't specifically say that you are able to use all abilities the model has when taking the declared action.  Either way i agree Wyrd should clarify the rules for situations like these.

26 minutes ago, bedjy said:

Well; actualy, Shenlong is quite a monster against condition based crews thanks to Spiritual Alignment

I was more referring to burning and poison conditions, though to be fair in M2e, Shenlong was the only one who benefited from being on fire or poisoned.

2 hours ago, bedjy said:

Well, currently he is a monster, he destroys condition based crews without resist, he rolls over any defensive ability, he hits like a truck because of FRS (way too hard in my opinion), that's why I'd tone down a bit FRS (I think you were talking about FRS and not WRS since WRS doesn't help damaging).

Students would keep their bonus action to move Chi Tokens, and with Shen around They could benefit from Shouting Order.

At the moment, I've got every reason to take Shen as a second master, and almost none to take him as first master, which is quite sad. With his way to deal with condition, guild and arcanist players cant really play Sonnia & Kaeris against the whole TT faction, which is lame (same as Asami vs Gremlins and Neverborn because of Zoraida).

Shenlong's crew needs a little love anyway, cause at the moment it's one of the poorest gameplay experience I've had in M3e on every game I've played with the team.

 

I kind of like the Shouting Oders on Shenlong idea, it would make him feel a little closer to M2e Shenlong.

When i first looked at the Monks i liked what i saw for the most part (other then Sensei Yu) on an individual model basis, but compared to other keywords none of the models look like they work together really.  I really liked how Sensei Yu was a great support piece in M2e, now he's just kind of a boring beater.  I am also disappointed that Shenlong no longer really does anything with conditions, all he can do now is prevent a condition on himself.  I was hoping the Monks would be similar to M2e and be the a crew that would mess around with conditions.

As it stands right now, im not really excited to play a Monk crew.

1 hour ago, bedjy said:

played a McCabe game last Saturday. Used Obsidian Oni & tanuki to get me 4 Upgrades on turn 1. I've made a wrong choice of items and my opponent had very good hands and he playing BrewAbusedMaster but I was able to keep up.

4 models perma fast is... Kinda OP

I can see how Obsidian Oni's Scorched Earth trigger will help, but how was the Tanuki able to help get you 4 Upgrades?  Did you feel the Obsidian Oni was worth the 8ss cost?

I have been thinking about this more, and it's possible to get 2 Artifacts out one turn 1, possibly 3 if you get lucky.  Luna starts off by crating a scrap marker then Scrounging for Relics, and then uses the Bonus Action from the Artifact to give it to a Huckster.  Then Huckster uses False Claim and cheats in a Mask to get trigger for scrap marker.  You could possibly do this twice, but it would probably require cheating fate twice and that might not be easy to do.

I do like that you can daisy chain the Artifacts on turn 1 to get a bunch of your models fast for positioning, and after turn one there is a good chance you will have a corpse marker (in my experience) around that you can use to get a new Artifact out.

I would really like to know how Wyrd envisioned McCabe's crew to work.  Did they feel he would get one or two of his Artifacts out to be passed around or where they expecting players to get more out in a game?

I have not gotten to play McCabe yet, hope to try him out soon, but reading through the cards i see Looted Supplies as really weak compared to other keyword thematic abilities.  It seems like you would have to work REALLY hard to get one of your Wastrels to start their activation in base contact with a scrap or corpse maker, just to draw a card.  Compare that to Life of Crime and how that just requires being with in 4" of Scheme Marker, something most Bandits have a trigger to force an enemy to drop, to gain FAST.  Why can't Looted Supplies be an 2"-3" aura?  At least that way it will be useful in a game.

As for the Artifact Upgrades, i'm not sure what to do with them.  Having to target a corpse or scrap marker to get one of these upgrades doesn't strike me as unreasonable, but since the only reliable way for this crew to generate scrap markers is Luna, or maybe the Obsidian Statue, getting these upgrades out seems a little difficult with out having your models kill or be killed.  But who knows, maybe i will be pleasantly surprised when i finally get to play McCabe.

20 minutes ago, Durza said:

I wouldn't call Oiran and Torakage obsolete, they were never relevant.

Torakage are one of my favorite models to play, with any master.  They always do well, whether its running schemes or just causing my opponent to spend more AP then they would want to remove them from the board.  Oiran are not as effective though, but their +1 to WP is nice at times.  I still don't understand why everyone says these models are worthless.

As for the original post, i don't think the models listed are worthless because of wave 3/4.  Izamu isn't useless because of Yasunori.  They both fill a similar role, but if i weren't taking any other Oni, Izamu might be a better choice then Yasunori.  There is no model in this game i have played that feels like i was at a disadvantage if i took it over a different model.  It really comes down to just playing what models you like the look of and play style (not to mention wave 4 models are the newest, and it feels like the newer models always gets move love from the player base then the older models in these types of games, even if the models are just as good.)

I have tried both models, and have had varying degrees of success with both.  I usually will take a couple of Tengu if i want a couple of cheap activation when I'm not running McCabe, and i take the T-Bros if i know I'm going to need to protect my scheme markers.  Honestly though, i normally don't take either model.