Finwe8

As a Rasputina player myself I'd say cover, so yes waldgeists. I usually focus for that (even 2 times if necessary) if I can get good blasts but it takes so many activations away.

That point actually leads me to my second point: Never ever clump up. Tina can and will get her blasts if she really wants to and range is rarly a concern for her from turn 2 and onwards with mirroring.

Engage her. Throw things like silurids and terror tods at her. If she hasn't taken armor of december its annoying her very much. With armor of D its costing her very valuable AP as she does the lifting for her crew. With def 4 she can't disengage very good. Thats why I nearly allways take armor of december for some time now... a bad engage and Tina can be screwed.

Engage her Mirrors. An engaged mirror is no longer a mirror. But be carfull this opens up for some ice gamin explosion sacrifice, so try to keep only one model in blast range.

Take out Snow Storm. Snow Storm can be very tanky but can also go down quickly depending on many factors. He is probably more vulnerable to quick burst damage than the death of thousend needles. Snow Storm and his (0) open up so many oppertunities for Tina and he is covering her weeknesses a lot.

In my opinion fighting Rasputina is all about positioning. Neverborn are fast, have many ways to create cover and have many ways to engage on long range. Personally I prefer to play rezzers with Tina

Ah I forgot one imortant point. Tina is good at the killing game, very good. But she and her crew (and she needs her themed crew) are actually not that good at schmeing. So as allways play for points not for surviving or killing. In both departments Tina is top tear and can be frustrating to play if you look to much at these. Scheming is totally another story.

in a game the other day Miss Step finally caught up to my Mech Rider turn 5. Didn't have a chance of hurting the rider and I returned the favor by using Arcane Ritual to drop 2 scheme markers which ensured 3 VP's for me, So yeah it's THAT good!

Espacially Miss Step has a chance to hurt her even in turn 5 But yes late game and the scheme marker generation are very nice. But I think many people underestimate the drawback of not beeing so strong early.

In turn 4 and 5 she seems super strong but still I think in many cases a model which did more work for you in 1,2,3 might be beneficial. This effect is enhanced as one tends to try to hide her early to get to that turn 4 and 5.  Of course allways depending on scheme,strats, opponent faction, terrain...

Pretty sure you cannot stack Vent Steam multiple times, but not sure enough to claim that you cannot. ^^

You can stack it.  The Stacking callout box on pg 63 of the mini rulebook gives four instances where game effects do not stack (Vent Steam matches none of these situations).  All other game effects which are not Conditions stack unless they specifically state otherwise.

Absolutly you can! Justin also confirmed this in some forum thread. (Might take some searching, was some time ago)

or have them start a little up the board and use their harpoons to pull your models up on the first turn.  Take a little damage, lose an AP, but get drug 8(?) inches.

Its 6'' if I am not very mistaken. Additionally the slow effect and the high damage profile makes this a rather risky and innefficient strategy. You are burning 2 AP for a 6'' move and get some damage...

I think they are actually pretty independent. If you want some ranged support in any crew they are a solid pick. And since the oxfordian mages are usually occupying more points as you want to field more of them at once, december acolytes fit very well into a Ramos crew. I like to pick them too in Ramos crews especially as Ramos needs most of his points otherwise. And for some schemes and boards they are just allways great!

Gunsmisths would be an alternative but I do not even remember their full card so I can't say anything about them.

"Any Campaign Upgrade" is singular in nature, fwiw.

Which is no answer to the question. He doesn't stated he wanted two buy the same multiple times but buying multiple different in one go.

Interisting Idea actually! I am a big fan of gamification. But I think your rule set is to snowbally. If I eat healty 30 days...

Could be interesting in the right gaming group with the right play frequency and adapted rules. Maybe some logarithmic power curve or at least below linear.

I think I was playing at the neighboring table. I have good awareness of my surroundings (means I'm nosy).

I am getting paranoid here! Time you show up again for a round of malifaux, so that you can peek at my table

I do like Decembers Acolytes very much but I do not think this kind of list will work:

First unbelievable scheme dependent. On the top of my head only power ritual + corner deployment, protect terretory or vendetta are good options. Same goes for strategy... Reconnoiter, Turf War and the one on jokers I never get are off the table

Second Terrain dependend. Obiviously.

Third it is very well to counter as such a list would be so one dimensional. Imagine your opponent picks Mei Fang... probably the worst case but you are instantly doomed.

Overall I'd say can work if if if if if and not all "ifs" are in your hand.

I cannot add much to the great guides posted allready. My only addition is that I too think she is very underrated. Against gremlins or guild she is very strong as she brings both counters to ranged:

1. Speed to engage the enemy

2. A way to mitigate ranged attacks and not just some soft cover but a stacking, mostly unignorable something. Very strong...

Due to her "chain all minions in an area to death" style she is also very good in some nieche cases like playing against Ramos. "Oh you have 5 spiders and want to out activate me... now you have five scrap..."  (Probably works against Hamelin and some others too)

But she is not an allrounder in my experience and has to be utilized carefully in a nieche were she can actually shine.

Friend of mine uses Ice Gamin and Spiders to proxy Metal Gamin. Does that count?

I own some metall gamin know and finally a wonderfull Mechanical Rider, aint no more proxing for me If you are referring to me... I am pretty sure I never did that against you... how is it you know most of my games?

But to the topic:

In my experience the summoned minions do not have a big impact. I usually use the zero action primarly for the push. A metal game which is comparably slow summoned in turn 4 is hard to get into position and still do something. So if it is not in position it will not have a big impact. And the position of the Mechanical Rider is rarly the correct position for a Metal Gamin(this of course depends on how I use her) Although in Reconnoiter it is very strong.

I manly use the Mechanical Rider for her speed, durability, flexibility (push and summon) and of course for scheme marker generation.

Binding ranged minions with a nearly unkillable model is strong. Generating scheme markes without the 4'' restriction is strong. Pushing is allways strong.

What the Mechanical Rider lacks in my experience is actually offensive power (which would indeed be overkill). Although its of course enough for schemes runners, which is to be expected of such an expensive piece. I use her manly as annoyance and support piece for which she is outright great. Depending on the schemes she is able to complete the schemes on her own, while denying the oponents scheme runners. Very strong but scheme dependend.

I summoned fire gamin in turns 4 and 5 this week

I like this Idea very much. This solves the out of position problem of the metal gamin to some degree. I have to try that... Damn now I need to get Fire Gamin...

If I would have to play against her (which I never did up to now, so this is theory) I would actually not go for killing her (except if she is out of position early of course) and try to deny her her game. Throw some cheapish or tanky stuff at her and use terrain to limit the effectivness of her push. Or all kinds of slow/paralyze/root/you may not walk stuff. But I think these tipps have been covered a lot in wikis and other threads from people more competent than me.

Overall I think she is very very strong given the right schemes and the right opertunities to use her. I do not see her as the general auto include piece as I get the impression some do momentarily.

 

i actually like very much armor of december on raspy.

Agreed! I moved to armor of december in most match ups too. It provides so much utility and security. Although against guild I would probably prefer mirroring more.

Since its the same push distance as Tinas walk you get free armor for moving if you do move in a straight line

I nearly allways take Decembers Pawn. Tina cycles her deck enormously fast. If you get of 3 Decembers curse with triggers (which I do soulstone for) you get 6 Duals. Thats a lot of cards. Additionally if you draw it it is no longer blocking your hand you can cheat it in... Two "red" jokers in hand is, although rare, very scary. You can often force through red jocker damage.

Lets talk some math: Base chane for red/black joker: 1/54

With December's Pawn: 1/28 for "red" joker (Goes only for raspy though)

Lets assume

- One activation

- 3 Decembers curse

- 2 With Trigger

- Dmg flips are negative

- No jokers in hand or have been flipped

- So far 8 Cards have been flipped (Pre activation)

(I tried to choose realistic values and neither on the maximum side nor on the minimum side, in my opinion these values are rather conservative)

Deck left befor Tinas activation: 54 -8 = 46

5 Duals -> 5 (Attack flips) + 10(dmg flips) = 15 flipped total from Tinas deck

Probability to flip the black joker as red jocker is 15/46 = 0,32 or 32%

Thats one activation with very average conditions... And keep in mind you do not only flip the "red" joker, you do not flip the black joker and you are absolutly certain about that! Although keep in mind you can not only flip it for Tina you can cheat it, which skews the probabilities a lot into favor for the upgrade as it gives you six draws per turn + additional surge triggers and whatever to get your use from the upgrade.

What this upgrade does for you is not only give you more red jokers, what it does is:

- Give you more red jokers

- Give you less black jokers

- Give you more "red" jokers in hand

- Free you somewhat from keeping the black joker in hand

- Give you certainty you do not flip the black joker (which allows you, depending on your hand, to be absolutly sure you can force through certain results)

- Give you the ability to fish for jokers during tinas activation

Maybe a little bit elaboration on the last two point.

Give you certainty you do not flip the black joker

This is underestimated a lot. It gives much security for planing, as you can be absolutly sure you can force through certain actions (with your hand cards).

Give you the ability to fish for jokers during tinas activation

Given I have a double negative flip on Tinas dmg. Thats, in absence of jokers, almost certainly week damage. If both jokers are still in the deck and the deck is not too big I ciould cheat that down to a tripple negative... Giving me more chance for a joker. Usually this kind of joker fishing is prohibited due to the black joker (since you could flip either one and the black joker even trumps the red). Tina can do this kind of stuff with December's Pawn.

So that was a lot of theory. Now my personal expierience: I have yet to play a game where I do not have gotten my value out of this upgrade. It should be about 10 Games where I took that upgrade and it was allways very very helpful to have an additional red joker for Tina.

And on the psychological note: If you get of two "red" joker dmg flips in one activation your oponent is cursing... a lot...and with reason

Edit: Well I was not entirly on topic here... 

The first games with Tina I tried to optimize her dmg output. So going Shattered mirror upgrade, taking Essence of power and keeping an Ice Gamin and an Arcane Effigy next to her. This did not work well as it was very easy for my oponents to play around that and I nearly never got all buffs up before I had to activate Tina.

My advise is do not optimize Tina, she is already scary.

1. Go for a crew of frozen heart models which suit your strategy and schemes. Frozen heart is the only synergy Tina really needs.

2. Allways take a look at your options. Decembers Curse is great but paralyze could be the better option (especially with wendigo, it has MI 8 on it's devour...)

3. Ice Pillars!! (I think the upgrade is called Cold Nights, I am bad with names...) Again this works very well with the wendigo as you can have 4 pillars on the field simultaniously. Thats enormous board control

4. Be patient. In my opinion Tina is all about board control. You do not allways have to kill stuff, the threat that you are able to is often enough. Force your oponent in bad positions, pin him there and let him make hard decisions while you go after your schemes.

 

Sounds like a pretty cool game.

Indeed Although I was, as usual, accused of card luck (not entierly falsly) ) But well ... with Wings of Darkniss (+ three soulstones), mulligan and woke up with a hand... Lynch is great!

Fits to the rule! I take that one Thanks a lot Myrrä.

Although I am wondering that the height of the involved models is not changing anything.

Hmm there are a lot of opionions on that topic but nobody up to now could explain to me the third rule of the elevation rules in such a way that I am content with the explanation.

 

Any LoS lines which pass over the base of blocking terrain (which isn't otherwise ignored) at a point within the terrain's Ht are considered blocked.

This is the rule which is exactly the rule handling the given problem and this 'at a point within the terrain's Ht' is the passage in question, which is ambiguous to me.

 

Every measurement in Malifaux is always done base to base, but usually from a top down view, so it is in fact just the way you just said. The image on p. 41, big rulebook, explaining the Vantage Point rules, shows explicitly how the LoS are drawn from base to base.

Point taken. Still, does that answer my question? Whats now with terrain I?

 

No rulebook handy as I'm at work but isn't there a blurb on the diagram with Raspy & Lilith that that if the elevated model is within it's HT of the edge of terrain, it doesn't block LoS? So even if the target model was within the HT of the vantage point it wouldn't block LoS, or at least that's how I've interpreted it.

Absolutly correct but not the problem of this question The vantage point rule is applying and not a problem here .

 

There are no model volumes or magic cylinders involved.  That's why the instructions for drawing line of sight vertically have to tell you what terrain to ignore:

Thats what I am hoping/asking for! So which terrain am I ingoring based on 'at a point within the terrain's Ht' ?

Great battle report!

But I am pretty sure that you cannot push through terrain or models. (min 35,42)

Just had my first game with Lynch and it was awesome! Of course thats not representive but blowing up a Depleted followed by Huggys comsume brilliance, while a Mr. Tannen is watching... so much fun (Thanks to Turf war I got 4 Models with this combo ) I liked the brilliance play style very much and a beckoner who tanks a Kil Joy is a sight to see.

 

Not another one!

Yes, yes another one! I am so looking forward to Pandora Big question Pandora or Lilith first But I think I will follow The Zinc Lichs recomendation here. Paralyzes everywhere!

 

If a skill has an effect in dialogues, it gets picked first

Mr. Tannen?

After thinking a little bit more about the rules:

Any LOS lines which pass over the base of blocking terrain (which isn't otherwise ignored) at a point within the terrain's HT are considered blocking.

 

When an Action States that an object must be within a distance, if any portion of that object's base is at that distance or closer it is considered within the stated distance.

I am tending to go with the interpretation that real diagonal lines are drawn. "pass over...  at a point within the HT are considered blocking".

Now the question would be from which height.

Base to base would not make much sense to me as that would mean that it makes no difference if the participating models are HT 1 or HT 2 (in the given example).

So I personally would go with the models height (the actual height stated on the stat card).

Thats actually not that hard to measure as its just a straight line and it is also a probably more rare case.

Thanks everyone on your valuable input.

If you have more I would be pleased to hear it.

Thanks for the answers so far!

 

Anyway in page 43 you have a picture of this same situation with Raspu and the Young Nephilim. They just draw LoS base to base. Guess this is how it works.

 

So the the model 1 and 2 have no LoS.

Your assumption here is that the distances between O, I and 2. do not affect anything. I am not fully convinced here for two reasons:

First, the following snippet: 'At a point within the terrain's HT' (p.42 elevation rules, diagonal exceptions). Whats that  for? For your interpretation the sentence would make much more sense without this snippet!?

Any LOS lines which pass over the base of blocking terrain (which isn't otherwise ignored) at a point within the terrain's HT are considered blocking.

Second, this can get quite redicules. Imagine 2. is Hans and Hans is 31'' away from Terrain I and the distance between I and O would be 4''. In realtiy Hans could shoot nearly into the foot of Model 1..

 

The diagonal LoS to model 2's base would pass the terrain, I think. As the terrain is not ignored, there would be no LoS.  There is no way to connect the bases with a line that wouldn't pass the blocking terrain.

I do not see any reference to the base of any involved model in the elevation rules. And as were calculating in a top down manner aside from these elevation rules I don't know why we should do different than normaly? Or to turn it arround: I can shoot over HT 1 crates if I am HT 2 although I can't connect LOS lines to the base.

One thing I took into account all the time implicitly is on page 40. there is a definition of 'within':

 

When an Action States that an object must be within a distance, if any protion of that object's base is at that distance or closer it is considered within the stated distance.

Hello,

I had a game yesterday with a friend and at some point we were actually pretty confused about LOS in a certain situation:

a ) Modal 1. with HT 2 stands on Terrain with HT 3 and vantage point rule applies.

b )Terrain piece with HT 3 stands between Model 1. and Model 2.

c ) Model 2. with HT2 stands on HT0 and wants to shoot Model 1.

Does it have LOS?

Maybe I try some asci art:

1.

1.

O          I

O          I                                              2.

O______I__________________________2.

As you can see depending on the distances one could easily draw a LOS line in 'reality' BUT the rules go as follows:

1. Models between the acting and target model which are below the vantage point model are ignored

-> Irrelevant

 

2. Terrain that is equal to or less than the HT of the lower model is ignored for LOS

-> Not the case, both relevant terrain pieces are higher than Model 2.

 

3.Any LOS lines which pass over the base of blocking terrain (which isn't otherwise ignored) at a point within the terrain's HT are considered blocking.

-> Thats the big question. 'At a point within the terrain's HT'

(May very well be a language problem, in that case have a cookie and sorry for the long post)

Interpretations:

1. The Terrain piece I is only relevant if it is it's HT (3) or less from Model 2. apart

2. Terrain I has to be at least 3 away of Terrain O.

-> That's what I would read if i read strictly but I do not find that this makes sense in any way

We ended up with doing the inverse vantage point calculation. Intervening Terrain is HT 3. Model 2. is HT 2 -> Model 2. has to be 3''-2''=1'' away from Terrain I.

 

Right kind of master, wrong faction, my friend. Mass Teleport, Ahri, Leblanc, Protoss, Rogues, and NoD all bring with them the gift of asymmetrical combat. You get to choose when you go in, and from what angle, and the enemy just has to deal with your choice. You approach from angles the enemy just doesn't have the ability to cover. That is 100% Neverborn play, right there.

 

Combine that with the predilection for pure spellcasting and burning enemies to a crisp, and I'd say you should take a look at Pandora. While I wouldn't particularly say that she bursts opponents down like a LoL assassin, the damage that she can deal over the course of a game is pretty staggering, and she has the same sort of high risk-high reward options LeBlanc and Ahri have. The damage she deals increases proportionally to how much danger you put her into, and finding that balance is deep and rewarding. Thanks to Fading Memory, she is terrifically mobile, and she can take a list with her that can get pretty much wherever you want it to go whenever you want it.

 

Plus she is pretty much the meanest master in the game, literally fueled by the tears of those who dare stand before her.

I'd say you were very good! I am currently moving to Neverborn and Pandora is actually pretty high on my wishlist and I am looking forward to try her!

Thanks

Hah! If he tells you Ramos, Mei Feng and Rasputina, I'll ... not be surprised.

 

Youre biasing! You should know better    But yes I get your point.

 

Hey Fre!

 

Well, why do you think I'm talking about you? 

 

I mainly pieced that together from others' reports regardless. I think we only ever played one game.

Wow that was fast!

I thought you were talking about me because everyones mobbing me for card luck I have a photo of a hand from the weekend before last and the common opinion was that I should send it to you