Sonova

Paralyze wont keep her in the box. The DM still activates and the box duel takes place at the start of its activation before the paralyze effect. This was covered in beta when we tried to permabox stuff using nurses and marshals.

TL;DR version - Use the Austringers to deprive her of cards. Problem solved.

The longer version: The typical Rasputina crew is chocked full of models which have abysmal DF scores which means they are pretty vulnerable to attacks with triggers. Her workhorse Gamins for example have Df 4 and Wp 4. If you can find some way to capitalize on these weaknesses you will generally win. Its important to remember that while Raspy has insane range, she can not see you through obstacles and obscuring terrain if her models cant see you. This makes it very easy to set up ambushes since most of your models are unimpeded and can walk through rough terrain like nobody's business. 

The key weakness of Rasputina is that she is horribly dependent on her cards for both offensive spell casting and to defend her crappy minions. In this key area activating your austringers early and taking pot shots at her spellcasting nodes with the aim to use the distract trigger can be game breaking. The closer her spell casting nodes get the more cards you deprive her of. Rasputina with no cards means that her spell casting nodes get popped while she stands in the corner raging impotently. You also dont really have to worry about the gamins once she's low on cards because its unlikely that they will be able to do much in the way of damage without some solid cards in hand and their pretty weak low end damage scales. The addition of Wave 2 models has remedied this problem somewhat with the inclusion of actual combat worthy spell casting nodes, but has also added the additional strain of greater card demand by those better models to maintain that combat effectiveness so card deprivation is still a pretty strong strategy. 

Also realign your expectations. Its nigh impossible to actually kill a well played Rasputina because of her ability to hide in a well fortified area and hand out paralyze when you do go for her. And lets not even talk about the nonsense that is Ice Pillars ..... The best you can do most of the time is neuter her ability to respond and go for points. 

If you need to box the Lady before her activation then the poop has well and truly hit the fan so having a 2nd back up marshal near by is probably a wise choice anyway.

What you will find though is that most players will not go near the Lady before she has activated for fear of you holding high cards, so most of the time 1 marshal is sufficient. 

Ummm. You if you pine box the marshal that has Justice in the box, Justice immediately pops out and gets her activation. This is why you bring multiple Marshals. If you do it properly theres no way you can lose Justice's activation. 

The buried model is the attacker. IF you bury something of your opponents you need to beat his total. 

Its not possible to lose an activation of the Lady. She gets her activation regardless. Even if she flips a black joker, since she's the 'attacking' model in that duel you can always opt to tie/relent and attackers win all ties. 

That is true so long as you don't really mind her losing AP. I'm not sure it is a great bargain most of the time. I'd rather have her out and getting healed or DF bonuesed, myself. Yeah, you can keep her alive that way, it just doesn't seem worth it in 90% of the games I've played.

The troll factor is kind of worth the 1 AP investment on the DM. Plus you get to position her in the most advantageous way possible.

I was pointing this out in beta back when scrubs were QQing about her being squishy  

Lady Justice doesnt need Df greater than 5 because she effectively has Df INFINITY if theres even one death marshal left on the table.

I disagree; you can run Perdita for any number of reasons, ranging from "I like the models" to "I want to kill the enemy master on turn 1". And Freikorps is an entirely different faction, I don't think that's comparable.

I used freikorps mostly because of the random collection of models thing. I often use out of theme and out of faction models myself. I was just commenting on the whole Santiago vs Gunslinger thing.

Yes there are advantages to using a gunslinger, but the synergies you gain from Santiago far outweigh the minor benefits from the gunslinger. You also downplay the ability of the family to actually move other family members outside of their activation, which actually makes your melee point partly moot since its trivial the extricate Santiago from situations where you dont want him to be.  The only real argument you have for the inclusion of the gunslinger is the ability to dump crows for slows. Admittedly that can be good but if you needed to hand out slows there are better models for it. 

Santiago and Convict Gunslinger are pretty similar models. They are primarily ranged, have about the same stats, and cost the same (Gunslinger has to pay the mercenary tax, Santiago has to pay the Hair Trigger tax).

 

If you compare the differences, Santiago is better at pretty much everything. He's faster (quite important), has better protection, has longer range, and can remove conditions from himself. But there are some areas where Gunslinger shines.

 

-Plus flip on attacks. I find that ranged models very often need to spend their activation walking once and then firing against cover. This varies a lot depending on terrain, and I'm used to playing with many small pieces of blocking terrain, so enemies are basically always out of LoS and with cover. The plus flip means that all of the Gunslinger's shots will be cheatable, where most of Santiago's shots will miss without a chance of saving them.

 

-Aim Low trigger. Few, or no, other models in the crew have crow triggers, which means Gunslinger can put those cards to very good use. Slow can really ruin the enemy's day.

 

-Melee fighting. No plan survives first contact with the enemy, right? Ranged models will sometimes find themselves locked in melee, and that makes Santiago totally miserable. Gunslinger, on the other hand, still has full Sh 6, all triggers, Rapid Fire, and has 2" close range.

 

-Bonus benefit: Santiago has his upgrade slot filled, Gunslinger can still carry one. At the moment I don't think any upgrade is worth it (Lead Lines Coat? Nah.) but there might be one in the future. It's too bad you can't import the excellent Outcast upgrade Oath Keeper for the Gunslinger.

 

Family synergy is a real thing with real benefits, but it's not how I usually build my crew, and not how this guide is written. I want Death Marshals to attack the enemies' Wp, Witchling Stalkers to remove conditions, Austringers to poke things, and Guild Hounds to run objectives. And that's why I don't value Family synergy as highly, these great models are all non-Family.

 

(Disregarding Abuela shenanigans!)

The thing is that the Family synergy is the primary reason to run the Ortegas. Without it you might as well run the Freikorps. 

You should always pick Santiago in a Ortegas crew. If you have never shot into combat without randomisation you don't know what you are missing.

I'd bring 1 Austringer to drain cards from certain masters but 2 is overkill these days. Plus with Pistoleros a full family crew is now legit as hell.

If you are unfamiliar with the mechanics a Freikorps specialist is one of the easier ways to spread Burning, but I'd proxy rather than buy unless you want a Von Schill crew. If you are playing with avatar rules, Fire Gamin are also pretty solid. Witchling Handlers can also help your Jawas get around quicker as well as make your non witch hunter models pass out burning. Pistoleros are also solid buddy models for your Witchlings and will probably see use in other crews too. 

oops

Nope......it actually just about makes him immune to any shooting attacks once he is engaged.....and if he is engaged with nothing but enemy models.....well the enemy probably shouldn't shoot into that combat as they will only ever hit their own guys.

 

Diestro's Circular says that you don't flip a card for this model when randomizing. Which means it still counts as a combat, you still randomize, but if you don't flip a card for him he can never be the target. That's why Finesse is so boss.....if they can only engage him with Melee and they get neg flips at it.....well, hell yeah. The only time he suffers there would be against someone like Raspy and/or Sonnia since they don't mind if they hit they're own guys and the blasts will wear him out quick.

 

Don't forget that Diestro forces the enemy to be at a neg flip when defending against a Sh attack. 'Dita only has a Sh attack.....and gets built-in Crit Strike when engaged.......I've tag-teamed several masters with that combo......charge in 'Cisco for 2 attacks (he's got a decent chance to hit and do at least some damage to start the ball rolling)....then Companion 'Dita who charges in and the enemy is at neg flips against 'Dita's attacks now........call the grave digger.

 

I agree that Diestro is expensive and not worth it in every crew. Only once did I not take it with Ortegas and I regretted it. I will always take it with Ortegas. I've also only lost him early once.......every other time he has lasted at least til the end of turn 3....usually later....and every time he has paid for himself in my eyes.

 

I can't even comment on 'Hans solves problems better than 'Cisco'......I give up on that front.

Its not that Hans is better than Frankie. Its that Hans has a wider tool set. Back in wave one he was pretty much your only real option to deal with stuff like Pandora's Sorrow spam and Huggy in guild crews other than Sonnia and incorporeal in general. He also forces your opponents to play conservatively with stuff like necropunks, vultures and baby nephilem as scheme runners because he can shoot them off the table in 1 activation from anywhere on the table as long as he can draw LOS. This helps a lot in a crew that is typically going to be outnumbered and was slow as. 

In wave 1, I played Justice and McMourning a lot and in those crews, Frankie was typically just another body with a nice trick (+2/+2) because of his weak synergies with those masters and crew. He added no real value other than just another sword (albeit a very good one) and pistol into crews that are already bursting at the seams with swords and pistols.  I also found that his Df5 was sucking up all my stones so that wasn't an acceptable situation.  So I dumped him for Hans who helped me in dealing with fast scheme minions, ghosts and shooting into melee in general.

Now that the guild has access to a wider array of abilities and faster minions in general I am able to 'downgrade' Hans to Nino. 

Death Marshals are quality. No other minion has an attack that can completely remove a threat from the table until you are good and ready to deal with it. Pine box is the bane of WP 5-6 henchmen/masters.  Plus you can use that same attack to keep lady justice safe. 

You probably wont want more than 3 though. 

Buy ALL the boxes. Problem solved.

Hmm... I'm picturing an all female crew with Lady J, Taelor, Miss Terious, etc.

 

If nothing else, it could look very, very nice in a group shot.

How come no one has mentioned that with Exorcists turning everyone undead, the Judge's "Bound by Law" is doing 2/4/8 as well as giving out the arrest condition.  I like taking two Exorcists with the Judge and being a real pain.  And let's not forget that with Flames of the Pit, the Judge, or whoever you plant this upgrade on, is going to be terrifying to 2-4 enemy models (assuming you flip well).  I personally love them and how they give this  crew some added tricks to its normally straightforward play style.

 

Slightly off topic, but Exorcists and the Judge also work really well with a Guild Mcmorning and Plastic Surgery.

Because its generally better to just shoot and stab them if they are in range for that.

And yeah Exorcists and the Judge with Macca is a pro move. 

Again.......that's where YOU find the most value. And again, if that's your play-style, maybe that's why you don't think he's that great.

 

What? You make absolutely no sense to me. 3 shots only if you use Rapid Fire? Well......yeah that's what it's for. You say you use him for "punchan" because he can't get enough shots off to be worth it...........with what? His Cg 5 and his 1" reach?.......compared to his 12" gun? Now, I'm not the strongest in math, but I'm pretty sure if you're in range to charge with him.....then you're well within his Rapid Fire range. Maybe it's just me.

 

And again with the over-exaggerations........how are you 'gift wrapping him on a silver platter'? Maybe you're not using enough terrain....if Sam is standing behind some trees, or a wall.....and is out of LoS......he can't be targeted....can't be shot, can't be charged.....yet somehow...through the magic of Malifaux he can still shoot burning targets.....again, maybe that's just me.....maybe we have different stat cards......maybe you're not using enough terrain....maybe you're not screening Sam and Sonnia very well with Stalkers.....maybe your crew isn't putting out enough burning.......I don't know.

 

Oh, and if the enemy moves into a position where they can see him so they can shoot or charge him......guess what they're in range of? That's right, Rapid Fire........but only if you use it.

Putting him in the middle is usually putting him in harms way. If theres a solid object there then fine, but typically you only dictate the placement of 50ish% of the terrain and a savvy opponent will deny you things like a central bunker or sniper point with terrain placement if they get the first piece. And without a solid obstruction he is vulnerable to sniper fire and potshots. If theres a solid play to be made by that then its fine. But usually people tend to pay more attention to the terrain placement in the middle than whats on the flanks making it more likely for you to have good avenues to advance forward through them.  

Also a good opponent will never let you use rapid fire through either the use of pre measure or just using chaff models to occupy Sam. This is especially a problem when you are up against summoners like Dreamer, Kirai or Nico. Everyone knows he has rapid fire and solid guns so they will try to duck and cover. What everyone tends to forget is that his melee attack can do 5+ damage minimum to burning targets. Send him up the flank with a witchling or fire gamin and chuckle as he literally disintegrates your opponents melee beatstick.

Its all about the synergy. He brings 9+ss worth of synergy to the Ortegas, and I suppose he could bring value to other crews especially if you build around him. But there are better models these days. The acid test I use before putting anything 9+ ss on the table is "Is it better than X, given the strategy/schemes?". For me quite often X = Hans because Hans solves a lot of problems. Since wave 2 hit Hans has spent a lot of time on the bench. 

TBH i will probably be running him in the Vassal League but that's more because I will be giving Perdita a go than any real affection for the model.

Warhammer Online (RIP)

Yeah. If all people have are the Wave 1 boxes then he's pretty solid. Once the model pool expands however he drops off a cliff for everyone except the Ortegas where he's being pushed into base contact with the enemy to debuff them while Perdy and Santa perforate them before being pushed into something else to flurry it to death and then ending the turn within 2" of either Perdy or an injured family member to give them a quiet boost. 

It depends how much you like his hat. 

Just sayin ...

Actually, McCabe and Frank have quite an easy time of it,

 

every time an upgrade is passed, the model receiving it gets a 4" push.  If the upgrade you are giving Francisco is the badge of speed, he's also just picked up nimble.  McCabe also doesn't need to often be strolling much past the centreline in my experience, so movement potential differences tha the two mdoels have are less of an issue.  McCabe's promises upgrade actually works better with Fransisco than many other models of comparable cost as giving him positive flips on Ml and Wp is a really good idea.

 

with the boosts going the other way, a McCabe who is Df7-9 based on how many enemy models he's engaged with and a Wp of 8, with positive flips is as solid as anyone could want.

 

promises doesn't boot some of the other henchmen as much as their main attacks are Sh ones.

Eh? Most of the guild henchmen have better melee stats than shooting so promises is pretty solid all around. Also free movement is gold whether you are shooty or stabby. And yeah the interaction is interesting ... but is it as good as giving nimble to either the Pale Rider, Executioner or Peacekeeper? Also pro tip, Dashel with McCabe can be pretty brutal for a crew that likes handing out and abusing slow.

And again the problem with boosting masters to the 9's means that a savvy opponent will just tear the Df 5 buffbot apart or move him. Or even more likely just ignore your little deathstar and pick on easier targets.  

We're obviously not playing with the same rules.

 

My Sam has a 12" range.....ignores LoS to targets with burning.....and has RAPID FIRE. Unless I'm reading his rules wrong, that's THREE 4/5/6 shots a turn at Sh 6 ignoring LoS AND cover.

 

Deploy centrally, move up first turn and he covers half the table.

 

Perhaps you're not getting much 'bang for your buck' because you aren't using him right.

3 shots only if you use rapid fire. If your opponent allows you to get rapid fire off in this age of pre measure then he deserves to lose. Also deploying him centrally pretty much means that the good ol' boy is going to die a glorious death. Which is fine most of the time (IF the strat and schemes support it) and when I'm lazy or feeling trollish thats what I do. This does mean that you are gift wrapping him for your opponent on a silver platter however. Cover is naught but an inconvenience and there are many many snipers in the game right now. Even the GREMLINS have good snipers these days.

Otherwise I use him to flank because the reality of the matter is that Sam must be dealt with or he will rain death and destruction on your opponents or just steal the victory through points. This allows him to take alot of heat off Sonnia. Your opponent also has to send a significant amount of force after Sam because 1 on 1 he could potentially brutalize anything up to master grade so this allows you to dictate the flow of the game. This is even more so once they realize that he can shoot them through a solid wall if their models are on fire. He is really good at flanking too because he is unimpeded. This is what he is good at. This is where you will find the most value. 

The problem I am having is that he is baseline expensive.His tricks are nice but i've found that once your opponent has been rofflestomped by him once, they wont ever let you do it again or severely restrict you. Ryle pretty much does everything he does but is generally faster and is more durable if less bursty with his damage. Same with Sid. Both models are abit harder for your opponent to play around. 

Whoa i think you need to take a step back and breathe. I'm not saying Frank is bad. I'm saying he is not as good as people are making him out to be and there are better models for specific crews. Frank is only super duper good in the Ortegas because the Ortegas are chocked full of abilities that can move him outside of his activation guaranteeing that he can be where he needs to be to get maximum effect out of him. This is the ONLY way you will be able to justify his fully decked out 12ss cost. 

Other masters:

Lady Justice - The Judge is better because of his ability to move either your own or opposing models which can be the key to setting Justice up for a devastating charge or allowing her to assassinate a key model. This is a (0) action so he loses no mobility or utility. More wounds, HTW and HTK stock standard. 

Sonnia Criid - There could be an argument for the inclusion of Frank for Sonnia because of her rather crappy Df. However Sonnia's penchant for staying at maximum range whenever possible means that if this is your plan, you are essentially paying 9+ ss for a meatshield. Guardians are cheaper and possibly MUCH better because at 40mm they can hard block LoS and charge lanes for anything that would engage Sonnia since Sonnia doesnt have to see stuff to set it on fire (if its already on fire).

McMourning - McMourning can move Frank around so there could be some synergy there. However, my experience has been that McMourning wants to move around like an insane howler monkey on cocaine... so he doesnt move around enough. Also runs into the same problem as Criid where if you need a bodyguard model the guardian is also probably better since the +2 defensive buff does NOT require Macca to be within 4 inches once its been placed on him. 

Hoffman - Frankie is not a construct. Its not his fault but ya know... thems the breaks.

McCabe - McCabe is an interesting kettle of fish because his mechanic can quite simply push Frankie into the realm of ridiculousness. The main problem is then that this is not specific to Frankie and a huge argument can be made for if you are going to to make someone a superman, you might as well go all in on a model thats already super good. As nice as Frankie is he isn't the ideal candidate for McCabe's upgrades when compared to the other henchmen or something like the Pale Rider. As for Frankie's defensive buffs? McCabes on a horse. Frankie isnt. Good luck with that.

SO yeah ... He is ok. He just only has soft synergies with anyone other than Perdita and isnt really worth the effort of shoehorning him into EVERY guild list. And yes... Belles and Beckoners are hard counters because unless Frankie is standing next to something relevant he is just Df 5 Wp 6 Wd 8 with HtK maybe. It doesnt matter if they can hurt him or not. In Perdita's crew he is Wp 8 which makes him MUCH harder to shift.