chris_havoc

I apologise for the Threadromancy but I tried her out again tonight with only her 2ss and playing the discards as was suggested. Granted it was against Tara so I had an advantage in terms of him wanting to discard cards. So we had two games. The first I basically tabled my opponent Turn 2 (Misaki Assassinated Tara, Strongarm, and Nothing Beast) because my opponent hadn't faced her in a while and forgot that cards against her are crucial. The next game though took a lot more setup to get into a position where I could charge Misaki in and deal death. The Nothing Beast is scary for her as it circumvents Misdirection. I still managed to win 10 - 6 but only because I had a head start on Claim Markers. I still feel that with her + to Df and Crow she can deal a lot of death around both actively and passively. I also find that while she is likely to be killed, with the right positioning the doing so will cost quite a few wounds and Actions she is also a model that NEEDS to be killed or else so can give the rest of your crew a lot of freedom by engaging.

P.S. I did find myself saving high Crows and Cards in general in favour of launching the first big attack above spending them to save other models. So, I suppose that's the rub. I do feel comfortable with it as I field a biggish crew and one that has models that function fairly well on their lonesome. Misaki with Stalking Bisento and Misdirection, Fuhatsu with Recalled Training and Hidden Agenda, Samurai with Favour of Jigoku, Yamaziko (might switch her for a Sniper), 2 10T Brothers, and 2 Oiran.

Toshiro is definitely a great purchase. He works really well in most Ten Thunders or Ressurectionist crews as he boosts minions and can summon models with his upgrade aside from being pretty tough and hitting pretty well too.

Personally I think Yan Lo operates better as a Ressurectionist IF you are playing with models themed to him. Yin and Izamu get a whole lot out of Unnerving Aura. That being said Recalled Training is a really good upgrade too. The thing that sells me on Ressurectionists is the fact that Toshiro can take Corpse Bloat in order to summon Ashigaru is big and Yan Lo can heal the damage he suffers from it too. Though when Komainu do come out playing Toshiro with Mei Feng would be a good combo because her totem can drop Scrap Markers.

All that aside Yan Lo is a great master and very good at supporting his crew with Heals and dishing out Armour. He can also be effective with and without the upgrades designed particularily for him which is nice when you are picking your crew.

Lynch or Misaki are good crews to get as the minions you get in their boxes are useable quite broadly in Ten Thunders. Nicodem is a good master to get in Ressurectionists as the models you get compliment Yan Lo quite well and vice versa.

Misaki is pretty good against Pandora too. She has high Wp which makes life difficult for her you can also take Untouchable for those pesky Horror Duels. You can take Sidir with Promises if you like. Yamaziko is also good as she can brace, has + against Masters, and Wp 7 too. Take some Oiran and you have a massive advantage with Wp.

Misaki

Stalking Bisento 2

Misdirection 2

Untouchable 1

Ama No Zako 9

Recalled Training 1

Sidir 9

Promises 1

Hidden Agenda

Yamaziko 7

Smoke Grenades 1

3 Oiran 15

4ss pool

McCabe is a really great support master he also gets a bunch of pushes to get Riflemen out of combat and Dashiel is also great for the free Focus and because he can bash heads in if things get close. But I think Shenlong's ability to let models take (0) Focus makes him universally loved by all shooters in 10T. Fuhatsu loves positives on damage for the huge step from 2 weak to 5 moderate damage. The Samurai also likes it because he gets an extra Focus +1 the first time he takes it. The Archers get that too as has been said and if you are using their (2) action that is going to go down well with the blasts. Shenlong with Blot the Sky is pretty impressive. He gives out the (0) Focus for the Archers' Focus during their activation. Then Peasants do their thing and give the Archers Focus for the free attacks from Blot the Sky suddenly you're getting 6 AP worth of firepower from each archer (2 Focus and 2 (2) actions).

OK, I think that is fine, I thought it may be useful. If not that though, someone like myself who has had some confusion regarding auto-kill triggers with no official ruling either way maybe a thread to dump like a monthly round-up of those discussions? Just because the search function isn't always that accurate if you're unsure of exactly what to type in there. For example, no one has been able to show me where to find the discussion on those Triggers. Then it's a quick way to catch my group up on any consensus ruling.

 

Your points are technically valid, but (and don't get this wrong) overly semantic. By overly semantic I mean that we know from Justin's blog that Wyrd didn't write the rules to be semantically waterproof.

 

Yeah I understand that but I assume that was meant in the sense that the rules don't need to stand up 100% semantically but this issue has caused confusion for more than just me if there is an entire thread about it so clarity would help.

Agreed, but if we are being semantic p. 55 equates 'use Soulstones' to Use Soulstone and discarding them is definitely an act of using Soulstones (but not one in the parameters listed). So either the Triggers need to include a 'may discard ss' in the Triggers. Or an errata of that section of the book. Or just clarify in an FAQ what is the right way to go about things. But since having Sue's Trigger pointed out to me it's hard to deny that RAI were to bar model's without Use Soulstones from discarding them even if you could argue otherwise with RAW.

Hey there,

I was thinking maybe it would be a good idea to have a thread where forum goers can highlight issues that they feel need to be errata/faq'd. Having spoken to one of the guys in my group, he was fairly unhappy that one issue was not addressed (I can't remember which though) and having come late to the issue of whether models without the Use Soulstone ability may (even if unless rather than may is used in the ability) discard Soulstones for Triggers like Decapitate, Assassinate, and The Man Comes Around I thought maybe a place to wrap-up the issues that need a ruling/fixing to make it easier for mods and rule-makers to find them. I think it would be best to keep to stating the issue and not discussing it as that would be counter-productive.

So, which things do you think still need to be adressed?

As I said above, differentiating between discarding Soulstones and using them is an issue I'd like to see in the next Errata/FAQ release.

Before the Guild's Mortitian, before Flesh Constructs, there was....

VET McMORGUE

Ah ok. That is a good piece of information that definitely implies that you are right. Then maybe they need to clarify the difference between using Soulstones as a cost/discard and using Soulstones for clarity's sake will mean not having to release a bunch of updated cards too.

Yeah but by that same token it's pretty particular on what a model can or can't do so it not saying a model can't use/discard Soulstones does not mean it can. Rules, by their nature, are semantic so that p. 55 argument with use rather than Use Soulstones would mean that discarding is a use of Soulstones. But then it does say particular rules override the main rulebook which is a pretty good argument for it. Also, the Trigger, for Assassinate at least, says unless it discards cards/ss not that it may do either. Needs a ruling otherwise it's moot. Fortunately, the community here is small so consensus is easy enough to get until there is a ruling. Thanks again for bringing it to my attention. I wonder if posting a topic with a list of issues that need to be errata/faq'd would be a good idea. So that moderators/rule makers have less chance of missing these things.

Super useful

My gaming group checked up on that wording too I asked a neutral player to check the wording... given that p. 55 of the Rulebook pretty clearly states that, unless otherwise stated, only Masters and Henchmen may use Soulstones we decided that an Enforcer couldn't spend Soulstones. The Trigger also says that the target must discard the cards or Soulstones not the player. I think I know where the confusion comes in though because it's not explicitly listed as Use Soulstone. Then I would argue again that p. 55 mentions the use of Soulstones in small letters in reference to models being able to 'use Soulstones' rather than 'Use Soulstone' which implies being able to use Soulstones is implicit to the Use Soulstone ability so the argument can swing back that way. But there is enough doubt there to warrant an official ruling but until then, to my eyes at least, both RAW and RAI are that Enforcer models may not pay the Soulstone cost.

Thank you for pointing this out though. If you could link the thread it was brought up in I would be very grateful, or maybe which forum the thread was in? I'd like to see the other arguments so I can let my gaming group know both sides and direct them to it.

That being said I've used her to great effect with a bigger pool too. Ototo likes his Soulstones to manage just how much damage he takes. Misaki is also less of a lose cannon and more of a sniper rifle with Soulstones. Problem being that you need cards to get Assassinate off but gives you more of a buffer from damage too as has been said and allows you to burn for masks as and when you need them rather than relying on flips.

I'd rather have+fate Df flips and enemy damage flips than just the benefits of Risky Ventures. And this can be done multiple times.

As you've said, it's a matter of opinion. Soulstones for defense are better, no doubt, but an extra model on the board is also very good. The choice is investing a lot of points in the master by having a large pool and upgrades or opt for upgrades and let the rest of the crew throw their weight around too. I'm not arguing that having Soulstones never works, it does, well, but so does having a small ss pool. Misaki (individually) is very good with both and better with Soulstones but spending 50 rather than 45ss on other models means having another 10T Brother or something of approximate value (Tengu) running around doing objectives. Misaki will still do what she does well especially if you have Crows in hand.

Just to clarify, I never meant to imply that activating Risky Ventures ASAP was the way to go. Obviously you need to time when you burn your SS for the auto-Decapitate. Doing it while the opponent has a full hand is practically useless but if you activate Misaki later in the turn when cards are low she can take it out quick. Especially with Enforcers who are unabe to use Soulstones to prevent death. That being said, you can always use your 2ss Cache for defense too. In terms of Langston, everyone who faces him is on high-alert but unless you are very badly out-activated (a distinct possibility against Ramos) you should be able to avoid him. What else can you do when facing a model like Langston but accept that he will pose a threat? There is a good chance he hits his auto-kill if he is getting positives from Ramos but the odds are as good that you will hit Masks for Misdirection or Crows for Decapitate if you are Stalking him so does the opponent risk Langston or not? The choice is harder for him, he costs 11ss, 12 with Imbued Energies, Misaki costs 4SS with Stalking Bisento, Misdirection, and Hidden Agenda (for flavour) and poses as big a threat if not more when you throw her into a group of enemies.

I just want to add that I'm not sure that you need that high a Crow to justify going for Decapitate. Obviously if you're burning SS for the second Crow you're going to want some surety but the following logic still works. Any Crow 8 or above (granted still fairly high) will put pressure on your opponent to cheat in higher cards and cards of 9 and above are significant cards, for summoning masters especially. Playing a Crow of that value means either eating through a higher card to prevent the attack, burning an ss to attemppt to prevent the damage, or getting rid of two cards/ss. Any of which puts your opponent in a weaker position for following attacks and activations. Misaki also has 4 attacks with Stalking Bisento which means she has actions to burn, you won't hit a Crow on every flip but once or twice is good odds (and you may be holding) and your opponent has to make the decision between discarding cards to prevent a model dying, beating the card, or letting the model die to keep cards in hand for Misdirection. She may not stay around the whole game but she will cut a very big chunk out of your opponent's crew before she goes down.

*EDIT* Sorry quotes never work for me... I have to use a proxy to access the forums because of the way the South African IP Adresses are bundled. I hope it makes sense.

I often run 3 Rail Workers with Mei Feng and also 3 Metal Gamin but that is Mei Feng only. Rail Workers are incredibly tanky for their points and I never regret having them. I would certainly also consider 3 10T Brothers but other than that not really. Besides Guild Hounds with McCabe, of course.

Molly uses her Summon to simultaneously hold up and damage the opponent's crew. The more models around the summoned model, the tougher that model is to kill. Punk Zombies and Transmortis Students are ideal for this. Summoning a Punk Zombie on two or more wounds means your opponent will be wasting two AP trying to kill it and in the mean time taking damage from Black Blood. They can then either Slice & Dice when summoned into big groups or focus their considerable hitting power on a single model. The Students are also very survivable. They can also be summoned to suit your needs. Constructs/Armoured enemies hate the Student of Steel and Hard to Wound/Undead hate the Student of Sinew.

Her issue is that her Summoning and Attack range is on the short side so some points invested into helping her move around the board are very useful. Dead Doxies work great for that and make her very fast indeed. Honestly, Molly is my most powerful master and there isn't a Scheme or Strategy I would be that phased playing with her but if you are facing Outcasts and Von Schill is a possibility the game is going to be an up hill battle because of the Freikorps Armour ignoring Pulse damage. Also, Steampunk Arachnids have the same ability so Ramos can be a tough match up too. I've not faced her with Molly but Lilith is also possibly tougher to face than other masters because of having Black Blood negating Black Blood but the same would be true for Lilith's crew so may even out.

It depends I've been running her on just her Cache lately to great effect. The biggest benefit of Risky Ventures is positives to Df flips. It means with Misdirection you are hitting a Mask 50% of the time based on normal odds and your odds increase with the conrol hand. It means burning through your opponents hand like crazy especially when you hit a Crow. Also, with your last Soulstone you can burn it for a Crow and because of Risky Ventures you get a double Crow for you action. You can even spend two if you want an extra positive. That being said I've used her to great effect with a bigger pool too. Ototo likes his Soulstones to manage just how much damage he takes. Misaki is also less of a lose cannon and more of a sniper rifle with Soulstones. Problem being that you need cards to get Assassinate off but gives you more of a buffer from damage too as has been said and allows you to burn for masks as and when you need them rather than relying on flips. Ultimately, I think it depends on what you are running. A crew without Henchmen or at least Henchmen who don't need Soulstones will do well with Misaki's low cache but the opposite is true for crews with Henchmen that need or like using Soustones.

Honestly, I wish I knew. It's been floating there a while and it's starting to smell. I just try swim around it.

Hey there! For those interested I will be running a small tournament at The Underground by Northgate in Johannesburg. All comers are welcome! See the attached rulespack for further information.

Chris.

Alright I couldn't see how to attach files so I have posted it here: http://www.warhammergenerals.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=13075

They are pretty great to my eyes. They can sit back on your side of the table going for 28" shots or go in close to deal damage with the Katana. Both attacks have positives so it's a case of the potential to hit higher number on an attack or hitting higher number in general by flipping more cards. Also remember the Snipers have Hard to Kill making them FAR more survivable. Granted, no immunity to Paralyzed but with a high Wp of 6 that's not often going to be an issue anyway. They are also faster than Acolytes so don't have to rely on getting the push trigger to reposition. Lastly they have Critical Strike which will pack a strong punch if you're using Focus for positives on damage.

Models with high Armour also tend to have lowish defense so weight of numbers can help a lot in this regard. Mei Feng is obviously good at that because she can chain attacks like crazy. The Foundry crew also has access to Hard Worker which allows them to discard a card to ignore Armour and Hard to Wound so as a whole Mei Feng and company deal very well with Armour.

I think you may be underestimating the effect of summoning Enforcers and Henchmen of the Ancestors' survivability/utility. Honestly though I do think that playing Ancestors they benefit more from the Resser general upgrades particularly Unnerving Aura. Though don't turn your nose up at Chiaki or Toshiro in any list. Toshiro's ability to summon is really useful especially when Chiaki and the Soul Porter can boost his Ca with Chi. Chiaki herself gets rid of conditions which makes her incredibly useful while also not being that big a threat and so she tends to stick around. Izamu and Yin are both very difficult to remove but I would say more replacable than Chiaki and Toshiro. Basically Yan Lo is great because you can make him virtually indestructable with Ascendance and his other (0) Instill Youth can heal models a huge 4 wounds which is complimetned by Chiaki's heal. He is also great with his Lightning Dance for placing models in the line of fire of very scary models. So a model like Ototo would be great in a Yan Lo list as would Kang. With Toshiro the Dawn Serpent is pretty awesome as he can give out Fast to minions. With Hard To Kill he quite likes Yan Lo's heal (Same with Ototo).

Archers, Oiran, Thunder Archers, Samurai, Ten Thunders Brothers (only metal release), and Katanaka Snipers (not yet released). All these minion models benefit greatly from Shenlong's Knowing the Wind and Stone ability which allows models to take the Defensive and Focus Actions as a (0) action. They are all also all great for other masters so you have a wide range of choice.

Necropunks/Silruds/Anything with a Leap on any suit are incredibly difficult to stop when you are playing Breakthrough or Stake a Claim.

Oh riiiight! Thanks!