Aramoro

This one is clearer to me than the other case. 

Page 26 of the Rule book states that the effects are resolved before the model is removed from play. 

Page 36 Actions Causing Actions states that the original action is not resolved until the new one is, so the model will act on 0 wounds and die immediately after the trigger is resolved.

I think the main point of issue is the use of the word "Immediately". I've been searching, and I can't seem to find it, but wasn't there a discussion about "Immediately" not being the same as instantaneously, but rather after any automatic effects, but before anything optional can be added?

 

I think it had to do with Actions being caused by Actions. Or maybe I'm just misremembering something.

 

EDIT: Because if you remove the model "immediately" after taking damage, how can you then place a corpse/scrap marker before removing the model?

This is really my sticking point on it. When the damage is done then the active player get to apply his effects, in this case add burning from Searing Mark. If the model is reduced to 0 wounds by the attack then does the active player get to apply the affect from Searing Mark? I don't see how he can as the model gets removed immediately after the damage is applied. 

DGRAZ brought up the example of triggers in his post earlier, from page 26 of the little book. Where you wait to resolve all the pending effects before removing the model. But as people keep pointing out Searing Mark is not a trigger and doesn't work the same way, It's not really clear how it works to me really.

And I think it's funny that Aramoro can respond rudely while focusing on Triggers....while completely ignoring the General Timing on ABILITIES (which Searing Mark is) that I pointed out.

The general timing doesn't seem to have anything on this. You quoted something from the Beta rulebook that After Damaging affects will be applied before the model is removed. Which is why I asked about Collodi's trigger, which is an After Damaging effect. 

If we're saying that abilities can be applied after a model is reduced to 0 wounds but before it's removed from the table then surely that works in the same way and Searing Mark applying burning before a model is removed. 

This right here is the issue. It doesn't trigger searing mark. searing mark is not a trigger, and does not follow the timing of triggers, nor any of the trigger rules.

 

It is an ability. it is always on. burning is always applied when damage is dealt. not after. when. It's concurrant with the damage.

You're confusing the word trigger with a Trigger, I did not. I can phrase it differently if you have trouble understanding what I was saying with that troublesome trigger word in there. 

You have to have Damaged a model to apply burning, until you know that you have certainly damaged the model you cannot apply burning. So burning happens strictly after damage. It must be that way round or how else do you know to apply Searing Mark. You surely accept that if you do 0 damage then you do not apply burning? So Damage must have been applied before you can apply burning. 

Witching stalkers give burning when damaging. Not after damaging. How are you reduced to 0 wounds. When you have suffered damage to reduce you to that number. So in the Op question the model suffered 5 damage which ip so facto also applies burning. Model has then suffered enough damage to be reduced to 0 Bam stalker.

That is incorrect, by the words on the card they apply burning strictly after they have inflicted damage, otherwise they don't know to apply burning. You must have applied the damage to know you have damaged the model, having damaged a model tiggers Searing Mark . I've you're going to throw in some Latin to appear clever, try to get it right as well. 

If this works then does that mean that when Collodi kills a model with Pull the Strings he can use the My Bidding Trigger to make them perform an action before they are removed from the table? 

Even aside from that, the witchling burning isn't a trigger. it doesn't follow trigger timing. It is added onto any damage, as part of the damage. It always takes effect before the model is killed, because before the model is killed, the damage is applied.

 

Also, for those not native to English, or those who need a brush up, the "ed" in damaged would make it past tense, except it is part of a verb phrase, specifically, "is damaged" which makes it present tense. Again, implying it takes place at the same time as the damage.

I disagree entirely that Burning is added to the Damage, it's explicitly a separate effect as you have to suffer damage before you are given burning, if you suffer 0 damage then you will not go on fire. So you need to work our if the model is Damaged before applying burning to it, if the model gets reduced to 0 wounds whilst working out the damage then it will get removed from play as per the rulebook. That happens before the burning would be applied so that effect fizzles effectively. 

Great thank you sorry if two models then hit the blighted figure with more blighted how does that work or can it only ever go up from being hit by one model a turn? I.e two models hit so would it go from the two at the end of the first round as normal then with the two hits next round go by to 6 not 4? hope I'm making seines with this thank you

It'll go up by one every time you hit it with Blighted + 1 so if you hit a model with 3 separate hits of Blighted + 1 in one turn it'll end up with Blighted + 3 which will tick up to Blighted + 4 at the end of turn.

Hi I'm playing tonight I'm going for this list I'm still very new to this and only played a couple of games (hamelin with the piper and survivalist) then (nix) (obedient wretch) (x1 rat king) (x6 rats) (rat catcher) and (desperate mercenary) that should be 50ss and a cache of 6

Please fell free to comment on if this looks good or bad really looking to learn hoping to get some stolen in early from hamelin do people make the wretch attack there own players to form rats using tossed rat? Keep her safe out the way forming rats was thinking of standing her behind hamelin and forming rats off him maybe not sure yet if that's a good idea or not? and with blighted once you get it on a player I.e blighted +1 at the end of the turn increase this condition's value by 1 so become blighted +2 does this keep going I.e at the end of next turn after go up to blighted+3 and so on? And what happens if a player is hit more than once by something that gives him blighted how does that work? Hope this makes sense it's confusing me cheers for any help

For Blighted you get Blighted +1 and at the end of turn it goes to Blighted +2. If you give them Blighted +1 against the following turn they'll got to Blighted +3 and at the end of turn tick up to Blighted +4. Basically they have 1 condition of Blighted that just ticks up or gets added to by applying more Blighted. Did that make any sense?

You're probably right, but I already have three upgrades on Hamelin. I want to use Crooligans, so I have to take Sewer King, and both Obey and the added triggers on the Pipes from The Piper and The Plague, respectively, seem too good to pass up. I suppose that The Plague could be switched out for Tools of the Tyrant, if I wanted to play Hamelin more aggressively?

 

I was thinking about removing two rats for a canine remains, but those probably work better in pairs. I could add another Crooligan for two rats, which might be pretty useful in getting those scheme markers out there faster.

I probably should have said I was replying to the OP's list as he only had 2 upgrades on Hamlin. For you triple Crooligans is probably a nice idea. 

I would say rats are fairly easy to come by so I'm not sure I would be hiring so many right at the start of the game. I think you'll get more value out of Tools of the Tyrant than an extra rat. 

What is the list? I have tried a drwoned/jakuna list before, not very well though.

I tried my first 50ss game with the offical rules last night using this crew for Squatters Rights, Distract and Plant Explosives 

So this came up in a game last night and I'm not entirely sure what the answer is. Say have a Jaakuna Ubume beside a The Drowned who uses Drag Under with the Undertow trigger on an Incorporeal model. Will they

a ) Get pushed towards the Jaakuna Ubume as they still consider it Hazardous terrain even though they will ignore it during the push, as per Jaakuna Ubume card text they consider it hazardous. 

b ) Ignore the fact the terrain is there and not get pushed anywhere as the terrain will not be hazardous to them no matter what happens. 

I've got a list using The Drowned and Jaakuna Ubume that I really want to try out, lots of pushes and movement to use. 

So does They're Just Rats mean you can no longer pay the cost on Writhing Mass when they're down to one wound?

I'm impressed by how quickly you got this on the forum too!

Thought I would write it up whilst it was fresh in my mind, added the crews used as well for some added clarity.

I just thought I would write up a little report of my first Malifaux tournament. I basically have 2 crews, Colette and Hamlin. Hamlin seems to be a lot more forgiving of mistakes so I went for him, sacrificing only part of my soul to do so.

Game 1 - Andrew - Neverborn (Lilith)

His Crew

Lilith

Mature Nephilim

Collodi with 4 Marionettes

2x Wicked Doll

My Crew

Hamlin

Nix

Obedient Wretch

2x Rat Catchers

5x Malifaux Rats

This game was shared plant the evidence so I picked some simple schemes in Bodyguard and hidden Holdout. Collodi activated first and blazed though about a million actions which resulted all 4 evidence tokens being planted in my half of the table. 1 activation done and 4 vp's down, ouch. We jockeyed for position for a few turns with me moving up around the building that Lilith had staked a claim in. After a couple of ratpocalyses I score my 4 Evidences. As it turns out we're both essentially impotent against each other and neither of us can stop the other scoring their schemes. I try turning Lilith insignificant a few times but Andrew has saved enough stones to stop me doing it. He scores his stake a claim and bodyguard, I score my bodyguard and holdout.

Draw 7-7

Game 2 - Alan - Guild (Perdita)

His Crew

Perdita Ortega

Francisco Ortega

Nino Ortega

Santiago Ortega

Papa Loco

Latigo Pistolero

My Crew

Hamlin

Nix

Obedient Wretch

2x Rat Catchers

5x Malifaux Rats

This was our supply wagon game. Perdita is ne of the few masters i've played against before so i was pretty nervous about getting headshotted repeatedly. The first turn was pretty much moving for position, circling each other as I bravely hid behind a big building. Santiago and Francisco pushed up in the second turn and Nix Obediently charged Santiago. Papa Loco pushed up into contact with my supply wagon, with the benefit of a good control hand Hamlin use his pipes to make Papa move into contact with him then beat him to death with his Black Staff. I won a critical initiative and Nix finished off Santiago before getting ventilated by an angry Perdita. Francisco got eaten by a swarm of rats. My rats then spread out between his supply wagon and the centre of the table to stop his wagon from moving in, We counted up schemes and strategies for a 6-4 victory. Alas this being my first tourny I didn't know I wasn't allowed to take the same schemes twice, so I lost 3 vps for my Bodyguard and Holdout. whoops.

Loss 3-4

Game 3 - Irving - Neverborn (Lilith)

His Crew

Lilith

Primordial Magic

Mr Graves

Tuco

Mature Nephilim

Young Nephilim

My Crew

Hamlin

Nix

Obedient Wretch

2x Rat Catchers

5x Malifaux Rats

Shared Slaughter, I was dreading this one but I had a plan. My opponent announced Assassinate and Kill Protege so I had to just not lose more than 2 vp's to Slaughter. I went for Announced Stake a claim and Hidden Breakthrough. I was working on fine margins. I started cagey to try and pull him to my side of the table with the Mature Nephilim flying straight for me. I used Writhing Mass, Black Blood to cause a massive chain of Rat activations adding Blight Tokens to it, I fed 5 rats into the machine then Bleeding Disease to kill it. Lilith disappointed by the performance of that one burnt her actions and 4 stones and grew another Mature Nephilim which pushed forwards. The ratpocalyse later I fed another 3 rats into the Nephilim grinder, then failed a couple of terrifying checks to pull my rats back into the bosom of my Rat Catchers. Bleeding Disease finished it off. Mr. Graves, Tucco and Lilith finished off a few more rats as I did a rat catapult to push them onto the objective terrain and into his deployment. This game kinda highlighted the need to have multiple masters as it was hard playing Hamlin in this mission.

Win 3-2

So a midfield finish for my first go out which I'll take. I should have read the tourney pack before going and I wouldn't have messed up that second game. I've never played against Neverborn before so that was a learning experience. Good to meet a bunch more Malifaux players and it was generally a fun day out.

Yes, though forgetting the range on Hamelin's 'I'm back!' ability was probably more serious.

I've discovered I wasn't actually wrong about that. It's FAQ'd to allow him to go any distance to a Stolen, woop woop.

ERRATA: - 'Indiscriminate Void' has had an errata to say 'If this model is killed or sacrificed during the Turn, at the start of the Start Close Phase, Place a Hamelin, the Plagued into base contact with a friendly The Stolen, then sacrifice that model. Hamelin receives -4 Ca until the end of the Encounter.'

To be fair it took me a few games to work out how Cheating and Stoning works in duels and I still forget half the time like I did against ArgentBadger the other day.

Card Counting (not counting the cards in your deck) is pretty normal and I suspect every Malifaux player does it to a degree. Counting in your head is almost impossible to detect as well, casinos spend a lot of cash to try and weed out people doing it. With the restriction on looking in your discard pile it's clearly a skill the game developers want you to develop. Saying someone cannot count cards is like telling someone they're not allowed to estimate distances so accurately.

Working out how many cards are left in your deck is trivially easy to know. I've been a CCG player for 15 years so I tend to keep a running tally of what cards and how many are left in my deck and my opponents in my head. It would be really cheap of me to tell someone else they cannot count the number of cards left in their deck. There's no rule against it so why not.

It's a knowable fact about the game state so why not. As there's nothing to stop you noting down every interaction with your deck on a pad of paper beside you restricting people from counting is a bit weird.

They've kinda shown that they want card counting to be a game skill, like estimating ranges so not looking at your discard is fine. What makes this stupid is that you can just write it down, do a +/- tally for you and your opponents deck on a pad. But thems the rules.

The number of cards in your hand is a knowable fact so there's no good reason to ever withhold that information from your opponent. If you opponent is refusing to tell you simply record every card they draw/flip/discard etc meticulousness detail your opponents every action refuse any take backs etc. They've indicated that's how they want to play the game so go for it.

You mean when you used the dove to cast a spell that it couldn't legally cast? Like that you mean?

Clay

Doves can only cast Magicians Duel sadly, easy to miss though.

If you spend a Soul Stone to cast Disappearing Act (so 2 in total, one to cast and one as a cost) you do get the positive flip on the Soulstone added card. Makes it a bit easier to get Mannequin Replacement off as you cannot cheat the Soulstone flip.

There's a tournament this weekend with two Brawl games on Sunday. If this isn't updated by then I'll be running Leveticus alongside Hamelin with no restrictions on Hamlein's crew selection

You know that makes you a bad man right?

Yeah I think Cassanrda would get hit, you cannot target her but she's appearing in the middle of an ongoing duel so you've skipped the Targeting stage. Just as a performer couldn't make you take the WP test to fizzle your action.

With the wording Clarification in the FAQ on this means the switched in Showgirl becomes the new Target. Does this mean you add the Showgirls Df to the defence flip or Colettes?

For example

1) Witchling Strikes Colette flipping a 9 for a total of 15

2) Colette flips a 10:tomes and triggers Blinding Flash immediately switching with a Mannequin

The Mannequin is now the target of the Witchlings , is my Df total for the duel 13 or 16? It seems it should be 16 as the duel total was determined before the Trigger was declared.

Can the switched in Model declare a Df trigger? I know only one trigger per Model per duel but this model hasn't triggered one yet and I think we are still in the Declare Triggers step.