Aramoro

Is this not covered on Page 192 when setting TN's for trying things against Characters controlled by the Fatemaster. 

So if you were going to try and convince a Guard Sargent to let them past, lets say that Notice (1) + Cunning (0) + Rank modifier (7-8)  = TN 8-9 With any situational modifiers you like, like maybe a +2 TN because they're on the lookout for someone. That would be a specific situation in general I think I would oppose social things like this 

Barter Opposed by Barter + Tenacity

Bewitch Opposed by Willpower 

Convince Opposed by Convince + Intellect (if in a debate)

Convince Opposed by Willpower (other situations)

Deceive Opposed by Notice + Cunning

Intimidate Opposed by Willpower

Things like Pickpocket I'd go for Notice + Cunning 

A decent idea but AV 7 is still pretty high.

AV7 is high but the nature of the mechanic the difference between 7 and 8 is significant. Say they want to Shoot a black blood shaman, he's DF 9. At AV8 you only fail if you flip the black joker, so about a 98% chance to hit, pretty much a sure thing. Now at AV 7 their chance to hit is down to 91% and on top of that they can still fail even if they black joker has been flipped already. Against a Ronin with DF 11 the guy with AV 8 is on about 83% chance to hit, still pretty sound AV 7 is only 76% sure of hitting the target. 

Even 1 point lower negative flips will start to affect the Fated much more quickly. You don't want to turn the game into some sort of police squad style farce or neither side being able to hit each other, but failing about a quarter of your shots against a Ronin feels about right for an expert in something. 

Yeah, so they would have to talk with their Fatemaster about what they want, so he can give them the chance to hunt such a Grimoire down. I don't really see the issue. 

Of course and I'm not ruling out finding Grimoires of course. Just looking for a way for characters to affect their own fate without relying on pure fiat and continuing with the adventure. I'm just trying to find that balance where the adventure continues for everyone and not taking time out to hunt down the magic robot book or just happening across one at random, and characters getting to develop in the directions that they want to. 

I just think it's weird their's no mechanical way to gain spells at all really. 

My issue with the additional Grimoires thing is it removes some of the choices from the Fated. Say you're a Tinkerer and you want to tinker things so you have your initial Grimoire with Animate Limb, you're just starting out so starting small. You want to make your magical punch arm electrocute people so you take the Electical Immuto. Now the only way to get Animate Construct is to somehow find a Grimoire that tells you how to do that, you can't discern it from the one you have. Then if you want to continue your shtick of Electrical constructions then this new Grimoire also has to have the Electrical Immuto in it as a Tinkerer can never Master a Magia or Immuto normally (they can of course go three steps down the Dabbler pursuit to master the Electrical Immuto). 

I've been trying to work out how the Dabbler and Tinkerer in my group will actually be able to progress outside of me just gifting them new Magia and Immuto's. I was considering allowing them to purchase new ones which match the Magia types in the Grimoires they own, so if you start with Sorcery and Prestidigitation Magia you can only get new spells from those Magia. Then costing them up like they were skills, so if you have 2 Magia and 3 Immuto's in your Grimoire then it would cost you 2 XP to get a new Magia or 3 XP to get a new Immuto as you slowly unlock the secrets of your Grimoire. 

I'm kinda reasoning that right now I just have to gift them new spells for doing stuff which is really no cost to them, whilst everyone else has to invest XP or scrip into better skills and equipment. Also it will give them a good idea of when they might be able to do something. If you want to make magical robots and you don't start with that Enchantment then it's good to know you can actively pursue that goal. 

Any thoughts on doing this? Pros and Cons?

I'm just about to start running a game and I was considering limiting character potential but not allowing people to master skills with the free skill advances, you can become good at something just doing it but you can't master it until you spend some real time and effort focusing on it.  So the best you're going to be at something will be AV7 until you complete a destiny step or invest 4 XP into mastering the skill. 

That with not allowing the more random customisations or attempting to game the system (No you cannot dual wield saddle guns!) should I think encourage players to spread their skills rather than laser focus them

I don't suppose you know the name for the Font used for model names etc do you?

Which it should be pointed out, isnt necessarily a bad thing. If the players all want to play "Outlaws: Badasses of the Victorian Horror Gothic West" thats fine! Just so long as everyone is on the same page about what they want the game to be, FM included

Absolutely, Wild West Murder Hobo's is a perfectly valid way to go and that presents it's own set of challenges. Like where's the next meal coming from and why is the army chasing us with cannons?

I've not run TtB yet but in other games the only real limiting factor of PC power is social. They can murder-hobo their way through most things but they have to understand that doing that has consequences. 

If you use a lot of magic all the time in Malifaux then someone is going to come for you, people you're not going to like. You kill a lot of a folk and suddenly you're outlaws, unwelcome in any town you visit. Hounded by the guild until you can be brought to trial. If you can express on people that actions have consequences, consequences that aren't more dudes to kill, then they will kerb their own power. 

It's a really disappointing Colette model, she's not dressed up enough to be a showgirl or dressed down enough to be smuggling. The old model is far better really. I mean why's she wearing goggles?

There's no way that is the sculpt of a master who pulls mechanical doves from a hat, she doesn't even have a hat. 

You know, Somehow, It hadn't occurred to me it wasn't target friendly scheme marker? I honestly thought they were good before, but that makes them even better.

That's the ability that really makes them for me. They can be prompted to discard Scheme markers which is really powerful in the right situations. I've never had great mileage out of the pulse effect but the discarding markers I use all the time. 

Killing your own performers for reactivate is something to keep in the bag I think. It's mostly not going to be useful but you should just be aware it's something you can do if push comes to shove. 

what are peoples thoughts on the desolation engine? Is it worth taking? I have used it a couple of times so far and it does pretty well with Alyce reactivating it since it can heal back but is it work the ss these days?

I tend not to hire one from the start but I'll certainly summon one as soon as I can. It has Desolate Warping and a self healing ability. They are really suited to suicide running interference against people and make a decent target for shooting with Unmaking, if you accidentally hit them you can Blessings of the Unmade get a poke out of them. If you kill them, no big deal. 

I love taking Lazarus with Levi just now. You can ping him with Vile Reclamation from your Abominations and (0) to heal the damage and burn him out if you really need to. 

Nope the answer is to put the correct amount of terrain on the board, half the boards I see have 40k or Fantasy levels of terrain. Which automatically makes Belles and Perdita crew far better than they should be. The game is designed to be played with a certain amount of terrain and the game is balanced around that amount of terrain.

Then you're playing with more terrain than is recommended in the rulebook, that's not a reasonable case to make. Also Belles can chain activate so you don't get that chance to take a shot and move behind cover that you suggest. 

NPE is very subjective.

 

With the Slop Hauler, It works out as an extra 2 gremlins popping up every turn due to Get ya Bro, and also having someone like Rami gunning you across the board for a lot of damage due to Ram trigger and then healing up. This means you can't approach easily without getting shot up and every turn there are just more and more objective takers to deal with, it can feel like you can't deal with the gremlins faster than they spawn. Yes you can deal with it, but like the Belles it's about knowing how to.

 

I also find if you are hiding your crew every turn you are going to lose, the best defense against Belles is a strong offense.

 

And even if they were Ca 6, you could still spam them and they would still probably manage to rocket a model across the board. And there are plenty of other models that you can do this for example Performers, and all do other stuff on top of the lure. If you lowered the Belles Cast they would just be an inferior version of these other models.

It is subjective but things which prevent your opponent interacting in the game effectively are always worse than things which buff your own crew in terms of NPE's.

Don't get me wrong Slop Hauler is a very good model, I'm not disputing that. But that in itself is no reason to ignore the power level of a totally different model. Perhaps they both need to be cuddled but we're not talking about slop haulers here, we're talking about Belles. I hear getting shot hurts a lot, that doesn't mean getting stabbed is fine. 

In a normal deployment if your crew isn't hidden one of your models will rocket 18" across the table turn 1. The same thing will happen on turn 2. Heaven forbid you don't want to play a hard combat crew, tough you're now in melee on the wrong side of the table. Try telling Colette players that Belles are totally fine, as soon as she becomes visible your master will vanish across the table and get beaten to death. Oh but don't worry she can...oh no all her abilities involve being near things which Belles prevent. Are you suggesting that if your opponent declares Ressers you cannot play Colette? That is not a sustainable way to design a game. The game should not be designed around Mr Suitcase than can pull any master and any crew out of his box. If you do that you're telling 90% of you player base you do not care about them. 

You also cannot compare Belles to Performers in a reasonable way. Performers are easier to kill and less dangerous in melee than Belles. The +2CA and 18" range Belles have just makes them ridiculously better than Performers. CA 6 with an 18" range is more comparable to Performers in terms of power. More importantly Belles can be summoned which Performers cannot be. 

I was about to point out Ashigaru, awesome 5pt models. Decent damage arc, good defense Armour + Hard to Kill. But then you get the the amazing bit. They can more or less stop important parts of your crew getting charged, and on top of that they get a (1) charge ability. So they can either Charge a model as far out as 10" (5" Walk + 3" Charge + 2" reach), or even more amazing if they are near an ancestor Charge, hit once, hit twice auto trigger a push of the enemy away, Charge, hit a third time, hit a 4th time... That's 4 attacks from a 5ss model, a 10" threat range, and the ability to stop counter charges.

 

 

Not to mention if in their core crew (with the upgrade on Yamaziko or Ototo) can put down Smoke walls or Teleport.

You're falling into a trap, like many other people in this thread, that because other models are good it means that we can ignore Belles. That's faulty logic because it doesn't address how Belles affect the game. Thing like the Ashigaru are great and have a positive affect for your crew the problem with Belle's is they have a negative affect for your opponents crew which is bad for the game. Against Belle spam you have to have your entire crew blocked light of sight or in severe terrain every turn or one of them if going to rocket off 18" across the table and die. That's a really negative play experience. You brought up Slop Haulers earlier, which heal a lot and that's great but your opponent has to have wounded you to have an effect and against it's providing a positive affect for your crew, not a negative to your opponents. That's the crucial difference here. 

Also people need to forget the hard counters to Belles as that's a bad road to go down. Yes Sonnia has a hard counter to Belles but this isn't Rock/Paper/Scissors where you have to luck out that you brought the hard counter to your opponents crew. 

The aim of M2E was to make the game simpler and so it's fun and interactive. There's nothing fun about 'Whoops you didn't bring a silver bullet crew' your dudes uncontrollably rocket across the table to their deaths one by one. If you try teaching the game to someone and use a Belle spam crew I can guarantee they wont play the game again because it's just not interactive. 

After damaging killjoy is on 0 wounds and removed from the table as killed. That effect is pending on killjoy until after the tigger is resolved. Even if he heals he still gets removed from the table as killed as instructed. There's no requirement to be on 0 wounds to be killed, but getting to 0 wounds triggers getting killed.

The way I read it was that it is not a healing flip, just an ability which heals damage based on a flip, so it was 1 flip for all. I can kinda see how it might go both ways so maybe does need an faq.

FYI, I will only be playing with Schrodinger's Models, to save lengthy discussion.

Pfft, there's no quantum state here, the model is definitely dead, it just hasn't realised yet. 

When a model is reduced to 0 or fewer wounds it is "removed from the game as killed" not "killed." Once the model is removed from the game, it cannot be removed from the game again as it has already been removed from the game. There is no longer a model to remove. Since you cannot remove the model from the game again, it cannot be killed again.

Not until after your trigger has resolved! 

The rule specifies this case so they have clearly thought about it and want this interaction. Though I don't think you can be killed twice, as the model is already killed during the trigger, it's just waiting to be removed. 

Straight up no Collodi cannot make a model that was killed do something with his trigger. Immediately means remove the model as soon as it is reduced to 0 wounds or fewer.  The only time you drop a corpse marker is if either player has a model that can interact with them. If there are no models to interact with the marker, the marker is not dropped and the model is removed from play without Collodi being able to use his trigger since after damaging there was no model left for him to use.

Whoops looks like someone straight up didn't read the quotes in the thread from the rulebook.

It's one of those really edge case situations but has an impact on some games, like when Collodi kills a model with Finish the Job, Or the Widow Weaver for that matter. 

Except that there's a clear definition on pg 26 of the Manual that designates After Damaging timing as resolving after the model takes damage, but before it is removed from the table, as already pointed out by Dgraz. If Abilities resolve after Triggers resolve, then they would slot right in; it doesn't makes any sense to parse them out.

Well kinda what I want to know, it either works exactly like a trigger so the model will hang about for the effect to resolve or it's something different. The other guys were maintaining that it doesn't work anything like a trigger. Can we break the timing down to something like this?

1) Apply Damage

2) Apply After Damaging Triggers

3) Apply Abilities

4) Remove the model

Does that sound reasonable?

One person.

And they are wrong.

Page 26 of the rulebook :After Damaging : These effects happen after step 5 and only if the target suffers one or more damage from the Action. These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage

That's a direct quote from the rulebook.

So why am I wrong exactly?

Where does it say you can't be killed twice? Did the second attack cause you to be at 0 wounds then you are killed (again)

You only get killed when you're wounds are reduced to 0, page 52. So you're fine Woo!

According to page 26, You have already been killed, you just haven't been removed from the table. So you wouldn't be killed twice. I don't think there's anything which says killed models can't be compelled to act? Maybe there is!

I also pointed out the ABILITIES under General Timing which solves your 'sticking point'.

It doesn't quite as I see the timing breakdown as this

1) Stalker Does Damage

2) Remove the model if it's on 0 wounds

3) Apply the effect of Searing because the Stalker did damage the model.

I don't see anything from page 51 which will stop the model being removed immediately before the active player gets to apply the effects of his ability. 

It would work exactly as you describe if there's a step between doing damage and applying damage where Searing jumps in and applies burning. I genuinely don't know if there is or not.