Todd

Just wanted to add that I don't mean that you can wait until after an opponent who's out-activated you has been skipped for having no models in play. I think any other point during their activations (and after you've run out of models in play) would be fair game.

I disagree.

I'm sure they're going to say you can't (just because), but I don't see anything in the rules that would prevent you from waiting on an opponent who's out activating you.

If you don't have any models to activate, you don't get skipped permanently, just every time alternating activation comes back to you and you don't have any models in play. You can get skipped a million-billion times, have an effect put an un-activated model into play under your control, and then all of the sudden have something to activate, right?

"If a player has models to activate, that player must activate one when it is his or her turn to do so." However, Bad-juju is not in play, so he doesn't have to activate, right? He can't activate, he's not in play. He has an ability that you may use to summon him into play, making him eligible for activation, but there's nothing forcing you to use that ability.

You may summon him "When you would activate a model."

"When you would activate a model" = anytime after your opponent has activated a model (due to alternating activation).

I'm not sure that would be the case.

They are being moved according to their own special rule - technically they still don't have controller. They merely have to be moved by both of the players alternating their activations.

They move towards the nearest target and attack it and the player who executes the action has no control over it either.

I don't know, maybe its been ruled otherwise, but Mindless seems to imply the model is uncontrolled, except during its activation.

From Mindless:

"Players, in activation order, activate and control 1 Mindless Zombie at the end of the Activation Phase."

"If there is more than one model in melee range, the controlling player chooses which model the Strike is against."

Obviously, you are very limited in what they can do with that control. Other than choosing between targets in melee range, the player really doesn't have any influence on what the model does. Without changing much, the rule could probably have been written in a way that leaves out any player involvement/control, but achieves the same thing.

For example, "Players, in activation order, nominate 1 Mindless Zombie to activate at the end of the Activation Phase...(insert rest of rule here)...If there is more than one model in melee range, the nominating player chooses which model the Strike is against."

That would achieve what you are describing in your post Q'iq'el, and remove any ambiguity as to whether they are controlled by a player during Mindless.

Nope. Since the Showgirl couldn't legally be included in the group (since she's not able to activate) you can't use her as a springboard. Everyone being Companioned must be able to activate at that point as well.

This seems to contradict that.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22414

Yes, it also includes a model with a Paralyzed removing Talent/Spell in the chain.

Here's the problem. When creating the chain you have no way of knowing whether such a model will actually accomplish that, or that a model without such a benefit wouldn't gain access to it (via magical extension, obey, or some such thing).

A paralyzed model should either be fair game for a companion chain or not. Why make exceptions for things that might occur once the models start activating?

The Mindless Zombies aren't really a problem, because they don't belong to a crew (Neutral) and therefore don't count for Slaughter.

Ok, here we go.

Slaughter is looking for Killed/Sacrificed enemy models (doesn't necessarily matter if its part of your Crew). A Mindless Zombie is an enemy model while currently under another Crew's control (Mindless, or Nicodem using Zombie Control), or brought into play by an enemy model (opponent controlled Mindess Zombie, or opponent's Nicodem using Empty Vessel) and currently under that Crew's control (Mindless, or Nicodem using Zombie Control).

If MZ's were somehow killed during their own activations (not likely, but possible), they would yield SS to their controller's opponent equal to the specific model(s) they replaced. There's some book keeping for you.

I know, its a stretch. Its late and I'm bored.

Darn, that's what I get for skimming. Thought I found something interesting. Oh, well.

Shouldn't a Paralyzed model with Companion still grant it to the referenced models even if it can't activate?

There is a post by Keltheos in one of the other current companion threads that seems to indicate otherwise (post #26).

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27720&page=3

However, the "chain" is created before the Paralyzed model activates (which it obviously won't be able to do).

"Before activating a model with Companion, nominate any number of the referenced model(s) with the ...blah, blah, blah."

Here, Ratty confirms that a paralyzed model may be included in a companion chain.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22414

...and here, Kelthoes confirms that Abilities are not prevented by Paralyzed.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24862&highlight=paralyzed+abilities

So, shouldn't a Paralyzed model (may be included in the chain) with the Companion ability (not prevented by paraysis), grant other referenced models within 6" of one another the ability to simultaneously activate (all part of the defined chain created before the activation of a model)?

Real life example:

Showgirls Crew. Mannequin is Paralyzed, but the rest of the Showgirls would like to benefit from Companion.

This is actually quite an intriguing problem. if you pull off Colette's trigger and create a Mannequin out of opponent's model, is the new Mannequin worth the SS cost of that model?

That could create some pretty valuable Mannequins...

I don't see why the new Mannequin wouldn't be worth the SS cost of the replaced model. Slaughter is pretty clear about models without Soulstone costs. That is, unless replace does mean Replace. That leads to other problems (7 SS Duets, no guidelines for the SS value of Summoned and Placed models without printed SS costs).

I was just looking over some of the Ressurectionists statcards and noticed the Empty Vessel rule on Nicodem and the Mindless Zombies. Way worse than the Mannequin situation. You could end up with 3 really valuable models (and probably will, as most 50mm models aren't cheap).

Funny thing about the mindless zombies, they have a SS cost of S (not P), but their signature means of entering play is a place effect.

I don't have any of the books myself. Can anyone find any other disproportionately valuable models created by the Slaughter rules?

If mobility is the issue, why worry about fire power? Why not more speed?

How about...

Lucius (4 SS Pool)

Guild Hounds x 13

Numbers/proximity mitigate insignificant on the hounds (they only need to be significant long enough to tag the evidence). So fast, your opponent can chase you for 6+ turns, but they're not going to accomplish anything. Bodyguard along with Breakthrough should work well.

Or this, if you want to maintain a small level of ranged firepower...

Lucius (4 SS Pool)

Drill Sergeant

Guild Austringer x 2

Guild Hounds x 8

I know, I know, who is actually going to buy that many hounds.

If you took a Performer and Mannequin in your starting crew, the Performer would be worth 6SS when killed by your opponent, and the Mannequin would be worth 0SS - these are the listed costs on their cards. Dresser simply gives you a way to hire a Mannequin in your crew, since all no-cost minions have to have special hiring rules.

Ah, I get it now.

Dresser could probably have been worded a little better. Slaughter is looking for a SS cost, and Dresser basically says the SS cost includes two separate models (not, buy one get one free).

After my original post I noticed that Summoned is capitalized, but replaced is not. Makes sense now. Good job Wyrd.

No idea why you would ever burn a Soulstone to turn one of your incredibly useful Performers into a Mannequin, though.

That's funny, I always feel like the most useful thing the the Performer does is bring a Mannequin with it. Though, I'm still working my way through the crew, getting the hang of it one model at a time.

SS denial without losing model count (though, I see how that won't work now). Multiple Companion groups is very nice. I tend to keep the Mannequin linked to Colette. There are times when Cassandra and the Coryphees are out of Companion range when I really wish they weren't. Replacing the Performer gets you two Mannequins for 8 SS. Not bad, depending on what you're trying to achieve.

Mannequins don't have a value, but do you need to get both the Mannequin and the Performer to claim the 6ss?

?

From the Performer's card:

Dresser: The listed Soulstone cost is for this model and one Mannequin.

As for your last question the Duet is worth 14ss.

If that's the case, "replace" must not mean "Replace" in Slaughter.

Hello Everyone! Long time lurker, but this is my first post.

Tried a quick search, and couldn't find any satisfactory info on this. I actually have a few related questions, but since they mostly hinge around the Slaughter Strategy, I'll go ahead and get that out of the way first.

Slaughter

"Models with no Soulstone cost who enter play by replacing another model(s) are worth the Soulstone cost of the model(s) they replaced."

Is this specifically referencing the Replace mechanic, or is this simply meant to indicate any effect/situation that removes a model from the game and directly cause another to come into play? Just to be clear, the replacement terms in the rules manual do not appear in bold text (I did that).

Related Questions:

1. If you use Colette's Mannequin Replacement trigger after targeting your own Performer with Disappearing Act, how many Soul Stones is the newly summoned Mannequin worth to your opponent in the Slaughter Strategy?

A) 6 SS-The Mannequin has replaced the Performer whose listed SS cost is 6.

0 SS- The Mannequin was summoned (not replaced), but has no listed SS cost. The Slaughter Strategy does not take this into account.

C) Its Complicated- The Performers SS cost was tied to that of its Mannequin due to Dresser (see question 2). Perhaps neither Mannequin would be worth anything now?

2. Regarding Dresser, do both a Mannequin and a Performer have to be killed to yield SS in Slaughter? If You sacrifice/kill one model yourself, do you deny your opponent the pair's SS cost even if they kill the other?

3. When using Dance Together, technically only one of the Coryphee is replaced (the other is sacrificed). The Coryphee Duet has no listed SS cost. Wouldn't it only be worth 7 SS to an opponent who kills it in Slaughter? I'm certain that I've seen discussion of the Duet yielding 14 SS, but the RAW doesn't seem to support that (again, it would depend on the usage of replace in the Slaughter rules).