Asphyxxious

The only "concern" I have is that it is not clear whether you have to target or not. If you have to target that doesn't bother me, and if you don't have to target as you said and can do it through walls that doesn't bother me either. Seems like a rare situation anyway. I am just curious as to how it is intended so it will be played correctly in the area. That's all. Whatever the ruling is won't bother me at all. So I am not sure what you're getting at exactly Buhallin. Doesn't seem like anyone has said that one way will be broken and the other way will not. More like people are just curious as to the intent of how it is supposed to function. So basically I don't understand what you are responding to at all.

I would say that it has already been answered (Rules Marshals dont always chime in on every question, especially if it has been satisfactorily answered by others).

Because no one but a leader model may be targetted by the Deliver a Message interact action (page 91 of the Rules Manual) the Dreamers Shadowy Form ability is a non-issue (unless they happen to release a Henchman model that is also a Nightmare).

From the look of his post it seems that he is not asking anything about The Dreamer. More focused on if it actually requires you to target period. I have had this come up before too with Pandora. I just let him "target" her with it without taking the WP test because I wasn't sure. I wouldn't mind seeing something official on this either, and if there is something I must have missed it.

Hiring limitations and exceptions are determined only by the crew master. In your first example, Von is the master and can hire Hamelin as a minion. Hamelin's abilities and limitations for hiring are therefore ignored, he's not the one doing the hiring. If Hamelin were the master then his hiring restrictions are used instead (don't think he could hire Von then).

Just sayin... I am pretty sure he isn't talking about Hamelin, the plagued, seeing as how Schill(Henchman) couldn't hire Hamelin(master) in the first place. The Hamelin it looks like he is talking about couldn't hire a crew if he wanted to.

But anyway Scurry has it.

And to questions 1, 2, and 3 I am pretty sure it is number 2, but I rarely deal with multiple masters. I don't have my books or RM on me so I can't check exact wordings but I think that's it.

I kinda think 1 is partially right as well though. I remember something about being able to run a ressur list with kirai and hiring the dreamer since he is a spirit for your second master, but it is still a ressur list so the only neverborn you could hire were spirits.

I think either way you do it, whether it be Levi or Hamelin being the first master your minion pool is the same, being restricted to the ones you mentioned.

Seems like the response you are looking for can only come from the game developers themselves. The only thing the rest of us could do is speculate as to why this is.

The fact that not all effects end at the same time is a nice touch in terms of gameplay I think. It adds another layer of depth and makes games that much more interesting and strategic. Just as a very simple example; Nino's In My Sights ability is a 0 action that does not end until certain criteria are met as spelled out in the ability. The fact that this effect on Nino doesn't end in the closing phase of every turn allows him to do other 0 actions instead of repeating the same 0 action over and over each turn. Now add to this the fact that this effect also doesn't end when it is used (as some effects specifically state that they are one-time use only) you can have Perdita Obey Nino to take another shot after he's already activated and In My Sights still works for the Obey'd strike.

I am very aware of all of that already, and it's all kind of a different topic tbh. But I was specifically ONLY talking about action modifiers..... It just seems like action modifiers would be the same across the board is all. So I was asking if anyone knew of any reason why it wasn't done simply, and all made uniform. Just asking because we get new players in the area quite frequently and the rules in general are just rough on them, and not always necessarily rough. So I was wondering if this was yet another unnecessary complication, or if there was a method to the madness. That is all. That simple.

Like CRC said it's not a huge issue or anything. Merely a curiosity.

Sorry I think my question was somewhat unclear. Wasn't necessarily looking for the reason as to why fast ends at a different time, but wondering what the point is. Because they could have just as easily made them all end at the same time right? I was just wondering if there is actually a point to making them end at different times. Like for some reason if they made fast go until the end close, or the rest end on activation like fast, would hurt the game. So merely curious if there is a reason other then just cuz.

So just curious... what is the point of differentiating between fast and the rest of the action modifiers? Like why don't they either all end at the end closing phase, or end after the activation? Just confuses me why it isn't all the same.

No. Spells with the symbol in their range means they count as ranged attacks, so targets in melee need to be randomized and the new target receives +1Df for every enemy model it is engaged in melee with. If a spell does not have the symbol in its range, it can be cast into melee with no penalties.

Just to make sure I had this right it is not +1 DF is it? It is +1 to resisting stat just in case it happens to be a resist WP spell.

If the Doppelgange copies Zoraida's make Voodoo Doll, will it fizzle or kill Zoraidas Doll?

Neither. Can't be mimicked in the first place due to it referencing a model by name.

Alright thanks for the. Advice. I will definetely keep trying her out against more crews to see how she does against a variety of lists. I liked her ranged weapon. It was funny levi was dead for the turn already and kaeries flew to where both waifs were shot one triggered a shot on the second one triggering a shot on the first one killing it. Then with casting expert she cast the spell that does a bunch of damage and did I think 10 or 11 due to the red joker. Apparently she hates waifs 0.0

Ill try running multiple fire gamin to see how it works. it was probably just the list I played against but it couldn't do anything

Ended up coming across a little more money then expected to, so I grabbed a couple models finally. Got a silent one and Kaeris' box set. Due to not wanting to proxy I threw a list together with what I had, combined with what a friend had and came up with this for 35ss.

Tina 7ss cache

-Essence of Power 2ss

Kaeris 8ss

-Essence of Power 2ss

Silent One 6ss

Gunsmith 6ss

Fire Gamin 4ss

Ice Gamin 4ss

It didn't do too bad. Not exactly an optimal list or anything but I just wanted to try the different models. Played against Levi running

Levi 6ss cache

Molly 9ss

Dead Rider 10ss

Rotten Belle 4ss

Rotten Belle 4ss

Canine Remains 2ss

It ended up going 8-0 to me. The Levi player is still learning though. Ice pillars ended up being golden for me. He could throw Levi in there really fast with the drag alone trigger plus the +3 WK from Molly.. but it took a couple activations to do so while he set up I put Ice Pillars and Flame Walls to block LoS from his potential attack points.

A couple things I noted about the models..

The Fire Gamin did absolutely nothing. With the terrain setup it took him till like turn 3 or 4 to really get anywhere important, then got completely smoked by Levi (he misread a scheme). I could never really find the chance to apply fire tokens to anything. That could be that his models were either quite mobile due to the rider, or didn't matter if I killed them, or are belles and are just too far away. Have to give them another chance.

Essence of Power... Priceless. Nuff' said.

Ice Gamin were somewhat useful.. but only for the +1 DG aura. It was nice and all but I really don't feel it was worthy of 4ss.

Gunsmith. Didn't do a whole lot. Again with being out ranged. He only shot like 2 shots in the whole game. One was to kill Levi just because I felt like it even though he was on 1 WD. Kinda meh honestly.

Silent Ones weren't bad. A bunch of random surge triggers to sculpt an incredibly powerful hand early on. Even with low Wk they are still more mobile then the Gunsmiths usually. Either WK 5" and shoot or WK 3" 3" and casting expert to shoot. So can get 1" more before doing a ranged attack with blasts and has the potential of 3 spells. Granted they can't WK 5" 5". Perfect Mirror and healing options were pretty nice too. Also I guess they don't get 4 cards to hit >.> although for the 2 shots the Gunsmiths took they didn't flip above a 9 I don't think.

Kaeris. Not gunna lie.... was quite dissapointed. They lack of ability to spread burning tokens was quite rough. Through the game she didn't do much damage. That could also be due to me being quite out ranged again, and the lack of good targets to attack. It usually went Kaeris flies out, shoots something for the burning tokens, casting expert for accelerant I think it was. Whichever requires 2 tomes. The ranged attack usually did 1 point and the accelerant usually did 1 point. Woot? Idk she didn't work very well, but I plan on testing her out more because it may have been due to the list I played against.

So questions I have at the end of that are

1) Are silent ones almost always better then Gunsmiths in a Tina Kaeris sort of list? Because it seems that way.

2) Was I doing something wrong or is applying burning tokens for Kaeris normally quite hard?

3) Gamin.. Any reason really?

I've found the golem is actually more useful than a lot of people have suggested. It's movement and defense are just awful but he's decent at tying things up for a while. When they inevitably kill it, you get shatter to deal damage. I've even shot it in the back of the head when it was on it's last wound purely to get shatter.

Whether it can be more useful than Kaeris depends on the encounter, opponent and what else you're using. If you also take SnowStorm, the movement issues disappear and you can also get soft cover too to help get into the thick of things without getting killed. Against weaker things like rezzers it's pretty handy but every time I've gone against Lilith with one it's not lasted more than 2 turns.

My main issue when reading the golem is the lack of any extra AP on a 9ss model. But I do see your point on how he can tie models up and how the snowstorm helps him though. I suppose its just situational like you said though..

Agreed, both is too much in under 45ish pt games. I believe they both need some support models, and different ones generally.

Whilst you can blow up gamin to spread the tokens, I haven't come across enough situatiuons where that seems to get me enough effect to be worth the 4 soulstone investmemt in a gamin.

Mind you I'm still struggling to consistantly add burning tokens to models, so I'm not making the most of Kaeris by a long when when I play her.

Alright ill keep them in seperate lists then. Had a feeling it would be that way. I was wondering about the application of burning tokens as well actually. Without a couple fire gamin in seems like it would be hard to get to where you need to be, add tokens, and make good use of them. Even with gamin they aren't exactly incredibly mobile to apply tokens themselves anyway it seems.

Just wish I had the models to test my ideas lol. Just waiting on the alt sculpt for tina then ill try most of these lists out. So is it generally snowstorm OR kaeris? Or is both alright

To use Fire Gamin, I guess its just player preferance. For me, I just use them to suicide on large groups of baddies. Spam the fire tokens while doing some damage. It frees up Kaeris to do her thing. Also, depending on scenarios, I guess their usefulness can change.

Pretty much what I was thinking. Have em run in there and either have kaeris overheat it or have tina bounce decembers curse on it getting free blasts pretty much cheating its resist down. Plus the pulse when it dies. But I havnt actually tried it so it is all theory for me

In all honesty, from looking at this list I don't see all that much threat. You have a single bubble contained Rasputina and Kaeris, and the silent one and the gamin, but its just the one area. Its also a little slow which can be problems on many scenarios.

Snowstorm moves the list on mass which can be handy.

But i've only recently started trying fire gamin, they might be better than they look.

The potential healing for Kaeris is pretty good with the gunsmiths and the silent ones and all the blasts availble.

I still worry about how it would cope in treasure hunt or Reconotter.

Would you suggest running snowstorm along with kaeris? I was just worried that might be too many points in expensive models is all.

Maybe something like

Tina 8ss

-essence 2ss

Kaeris 8ss

Snowstorm 11ss

Ice/fire gamin 4ss

Gunsmith/silent one 6ss

Just as an idea. Model count seems really low though

Thats not a bad idea. To be honest, I have not been super happy with the gunsmiths. I mostly used them to heal kaeris or draw fire. They just dont do so much damage, and there are so many other things out there that can out move and out gun them.

That's kinda what I was thinking about the gunsmiths also. They are really accurate but the damage is kinda meh. Especially since silent one has similar damager and other utilities for the same ss.

Here is my Raspy list.

Rasputina

Essense of power - 2ss

Silent One - 6ss

Snow Storm- 11ss

Ice Golem- 9ss

Ice Gamin- 4ss

Lots of power, lots of aggro to take off Raspy to get her set up. I like it and it leaves you with 7ss to play with.

My Kaeris list.

Ramos

Moble Toolkit - 3ss

Kaeris - 8ss

Gunsmith - 6ss

Fire Gamin X2 - 8ss

Mech. Rider - 8ss

I run this list, but I have cought a lot of flak for it. People say its too scattered, but I think its versitile enough. Of course, its just an idea. I love Kaeris, but running her as a master, I just feel she is too squishy. I wish I had more SS for this list, but I make do.

How does the ice golem work for you. I havnt heard many good things about it. Especially seeing as how kaeris is 1 less ss.

But I agree about running her as a henchman. I like the idea of her with tina. Plus 8ss is a great price for her imo.

I suppose I will have them from the box anyway.. might have to try em out. I havnt seen them played but looking at them I don't like them much. Figured tina and kaeris would be enough ranged damage lol. I will try them though. At 6ss just run them over silent ones?

Lately I have been wanting to play a caster master that just does a lot of damage. The only caster I really play is pandora making a bunch of often pointless duels to do 1 1 1 1 1. I think it will be refreshing to just blow stuff up with blasts lol. Plus I love kaeris' model and am looking forward to the alt rasputina sculpt. A couple questions though

1 or 2 essence of power? I could just bounce 1 back and forth to benefit both but would restrict movement. Plus painting one like ice for tina and 1 like fire for kaeris seems cool

1 or 2 silent ones? Pretty simple there. Is 2 neccessary with kaeris?

Snowstorm? Would he be more for a tina list without kaeris? That's 19 in 2 models plus 2 essence of power seems like a must at that point being 23.

Fire and ice gamin. Looking at it it looks like you want 1 ice gamin for his damage aura then fire gamin after that?

With 2 strong casters I assume I want 7 to 8 stones every game so I'm thinking something like

Tina. 7ss cache

-essence of power 2ss

Kaeris 8ss

silent one 6ss

Ice gamin 4ss

Fire gamin 4ss

Fire gamin 4ss

Fire gamin 4ss

Am I thinking the gamin are going to be more effective then they are? If so I could drop 2 fire gamin for a second silent one and essence

Thanks in advance

NVM... Calm dreams.. Calm nightmares. Similar names ignore me

But if Chompy is out wouldn't that mean you couldn't magical extension for calm nightmares, seeing as how the Dreamer is not in play?

While I am thinking about it though the "if your base doesn't fit there..." thing reminds me.. If Rasputina casts ice pillars on top of some sort of terrain.. lets say a building again with a flat roof, are the pillars allowed to hang off of the side of the building? Same kinda situation as the other I mentioned. I can't really think of a specific rule why not... But it seems odd is all.

That makes sense.. But at the same time it just seemed slightly odd to me that the model would be able to hang over the terrain, just kind of a "if your base doesn't fit there..." rule. I could see it being correct both ways so I was just wondering if there was anything official on this is all. Granted it's not a big deal either way. Just curiosity

Thanks

Bump

Pretty sure that's not what he's saying. If you obey your totem to obey the activation has not changed. So it would have been cast by 2 different models but still twice during the activation.