striker8

I almost force myself to like M2E because I slowly come to realization that the only way for me to play MalifauX is to play M2E.

But it is so hard for me … every time I see the arts of my favorite characters (or to be precise the art of evolved characters), their new cards I fill … sad and abandoned. Not really sad and abandon – but rather sad and abandon as much as my hobby can inflict me.

Good thing is that I have rather vast collection of MalifauX models so I will pick band with rules I like – for me there is no other way because in my area most peoples enjoy M2E.

This I don't understand, forcing yourself to like and play a game that you don't enjoy. You're aiming yourself for a complete gaming failure doing that.

I have to like a game to play it more than once, and I better well enjoy a game before I spend any money on it. I don't care how many other people like the game, if I don't I'm not going to waste my time and money on it. I learned my lesson with games in the past that playing something because others think it's great when I myself detested it. All that did was lead to friction and nasty arguments that fractured the group.

There are plenty of other games you can choose from that you may enjoy and odds are others in your group will as well giving allowing you to play a game you enjoy. If that just doesn't work trust me you're better off finding something else as a hobby over hating this one.

Since I severely dislike this new edition's removal of the things that drew me into it in the first place, and since I have no desire to play the new edition means it will be difficult to find a game using the old rules. And once you add in the fact the game I like will no longer have anything new added to it I'm declaring Malifaux a game I use to play and divest myself of it. I'll just shift that time and money to a game with rules I like that has players I can enjoy playing the game with.

In Sabol foam I would sugest 1.5" foam for the small stuff you're willing to lay down since 1" won't contain the whole 30mm lipped base, and then just measure the tallest of your mini's and get a tray that's about 1/4" taller for the rest. The 1/4" should give you a bit of crush room and a cushion incase you get something a bit taller than what you have curently.

Currently my 23 Guild models reside in a single 3" tray with some laying flat and some upright. Since that tray is now full I'll most likely start using 1.5" for the one piece smaller mini's, and add another 3.5" or 4" tray for the bigger stuff and contain them all in a Platoon case I have left over from buying a biger case for other mini's.

I personaly love the Sabol cases and foam over the other options available. I've seen them all and nothing has the utillity that Sabol gives me plus the added feature that all major distributors carry it so as my collection grows I can replace and adjust the foam I use at a reasonable cost.

Also just a general question if copelious paralyze one of my guys can I use the dispel from a witchling stalker to get rid of it or is paralyze a status effect and not a spell affect?

I don't think you can do that with Dispel magic from a stalker. Paralyze being an action modifier and not an actuall effect token/counter/marker. Same goes for Slow.

I paint for the JAC Painters Guild http://www.jacgames.com/warhammer-painted-service-pricing.html

We're US based, established on 2006. We have done everything from single mini's to whole armies in all genres, and a large number of repeat customers.

I don't know if we've done any Malifaux comissions as of yet but I've done stuff for myself and some of it's in my galleries.

Drop us a line for pricing and other info.

The spacer would be an extension of the tab, so the point of contact between the mini and the tab would remain the same. The spacer would just be slightly smaller than the footprint of the model to lift its feet up over the lip, but have something sit flush with the base so you don't sink the tab deeper than you should and end up with buried feet.

But then it would effect people that may want the mini to set below the lip, or sets to high or low for what people want at that time, and will add additional problems for people that want to remove the tab completely since even flush cut cutters wil have issues in slipping into the junction where the step and actuall tab intersect instead of cetting at the point they desire.

To make it easier to position a mini with a tab at the level you want in the slot of a base it's as easy as puting a slight s shaped bend in tab so it will hold the mini in place while the glue sets. Give the tab a bend and see how it holds, adjust as needed, it's worked for me for over 20 years with all sloted bases and tabbed mini's.

I'm going to assume you're rather new to the hobby. Trying to claim the large mini's Wyrd does are any worse than anyone elses shows proves inexperiene and more than a bit of bias.

I've done mini's for 30 years with the last 10 as a comission painter, and they all have thier moments. I think for the most part the Wyrd mini's are done as well as can be considering the way the sculpts have to be cut up for casting.

From the looks of things you're picking things up. I can't say it too much, you have to understand the basics, dry brushing, layering, keeping the paint where it belongs, etc. Once you get those down it will click and the advanced techniques will follow. One thing I see from your pictures is the lack of contrast to your painting, the later show improvment so you're getting there.

For brushes decent craft store brushes are fine for most people. No need to spend $15+ on high end brushes untill you get to a point you'll actually use them to their potential and not destroy them. And destroying them is easy to do! Try a samttering of different craft level brushes untill you find the sizes and types that work for you I'd say to start some brushes running from 2 round on the large end then something with a good point around 0 or smaller for details, either natural or synthetic bristle. I paint mostly display level mini's for comission and most of my general use brushes are synthetic ones around $3 a pop with my freehand and detail brushes being natural bristle in the $5 to $10 range. I tried the high end ones and destroyed them to quickly for it to be economic for me.

Too keep your brushes clean I recomend an actual brush cleanning jar, one with some form of insert to help open the brush up a bit while rinseing( I like the coil type inserts but have used the ones with a brush in the bottom), and some acrylic brush cleaner for a now and then deep cleaning along with a non silicone hair conditioner or an actual brush soap if your using natural brushes . Remember never jab the brush in the rinse jar to clean it, stroke it accoss the bottom or insert!

To keep the paint workable longer you can go with a wet pallet and/or try one of the drying retarders available. I use both depending on the job. You can buy a nice wet pallet for around $20 at most craft store or you can make your own. For retarder you can get gel or fluid versions, I use both depending on what I'm doing, The gel you mix directly into the paint on your pallet and the fluid I put in my thinning water. Again Craft stores tend to have them both, I've used both Golden, and liquitex.

Just because you don't see a use for something doesn't mean others feel the same.

Trying to pin down competitive uses for things also just screams you're not playing for the enjoyment but just for the win. Play what you think looks cool and you and your opponent will enjoy the most other wise one of you aren;t going to be enjoying the game much.

What size table do you play it on? :

3x3 works the best from experience, 4x4 can work but you need to modify the deployment zones or the first 2 turns are nothing but manuver. Like all skirmish games you do really need to have a good bit of terrain on the table, stuff that blocks LOS and terrain that slows movement.

How big is an average force? (including model count):

Localy most people seem to use 7 mini's or so at 30 to 35 stones, with a few exceptions.

Is it balanced?:

Balance is subjective. There are people who will abuse things no matter what. If you're local group can control those people it;s as balanced as any other game.

Does it lend itself to tournament play? :

Some say yes, I say no. Again it's subjective. I don't think tournaments make a game and lead to people sucking the fun out of non tournament play in the search of win. Your opinion may differ,

How big of an investment for a crew? (dollarwise):

Depends on the faction and master. I have 3 guild boxes( Lady J, Sonnia, Hoffman) and a few odd blister minis and I think I just broke $125 total with 21 mini's total of Guild. The box sets are in the $30 to $40 range and the other stuff runs from like $10 to $40 depending on the blister or small box. It all depends on the faction and the individual what the final cost will be but for around $50 you can have a nice batch of mini's to start.

what book/s do I need to get?:

You only need the rules manual and can down load that from the Wyrd site for free. The other books are nice haves for the fluff and if you want to study the stats without buying the mini for the card. The only one that could be a must have would be Twisting Fates and that would be for the Avatar rules but if you aren't using the Avatars the book isn't really needed

You might want to get a good sturdy push pin, like the kind you use on cork boards, or some other tool and attempt to get the point you are going to drill at started. I find this helps alot. Be careful how you hold the mini, however, as a push pin that slips can go right into your finger.

That's my first piece advice after recomending investing in a pin vise. I use an upholstery pin( think of a really heavy tailors straight pin ) for this but know people that use pocket awls and prick pins as well. Anything with a nice point and a decent way to grip it works,

Pinning is a real pain & should be avoided where possible & the trick is to use a proper pin chuck & secure the drill firmly & to use a drill of the correct size for most work 1mm or 0.5mm works, & keep the drill length protruding from the jaws short. The other thing I find it best to use a soft metal pin I use cheap iron sewing pins as they are fine enough & don't ping off all over when clipped to length, & have used brass or copper wire.

The other method where pinning is too fiddly is to use a mixture of thick super glue & epoxy putty instead sculpting the putty to reinforce the joint. I have just done that to the hands on the sword wielding Viktoria

I hope that helps

Are you serious? Last person I know of that swore pinning was to much work and un needed got laughed out of the shop as his army fell apart during a game due to not pinning anything. He changed his tune after that and joined my cult of pin everything you can now so it doesn't break later.

You should never clamp the twist part of a bit in the chuck of any drill unless you have no choice. First that is the weakest area of the bit, and second a chuck uses friction to clamp the bit and by "choking up" on the bit yoou are giving away crucial surface area needed for the friction to hold the bit tighly.

The GS and glue thechnique works well, but is still not as durable as a pin and in my opinion should only be used where pinning is just not practical or in conjunction with a pin for optmal koint strenghth.

The problem seems to stem from not securing the bit tightly enough. You really, really gotta twist the top there, or else it will do exactly as you said--sink right into the chuck. Mako's suggestion may work well if you are indeed twisting it harder than Chubby Checker, though you may want to check the drill bit or chuck if that's the case; something is wrong and you might have malformed parts there.

When it comes to pinning, you can't really be very gentle. Remember, you are shoving a corkscrew-shaped hunk of steel into pewter, this ain't a knife-through-butter situation here. Gotta really jam that sucker in there and twist hard, because otherwise you're going nowhere fast. Press in with your palm and twist with thumb and forefinger clockwise, and push into the miniature. Assuming it doesn't slide the bit into the chunk (how dirty-sounding) or slide into soft tender skin, you should see results immediately. Be sure to clean the bit off of the strands of pewter that come out.

Try it with some spare hunk of pewter or a "trash" mini, or even some thick plastic to get a good idea on how much force you need to use. This is a better way to practice than mangling the good mini's you plan to actually play.

On another note, I personally use sturdy paperclips when I eventually join two pinned pieces. Easy to get anywhere, and usually comes in large amounts for dirt cheap. If you kinda struggle to bend the clip, you've got the good ones.

If the bit is slipping, and i mean either puching back into the chuck or when spinning the vise, you need to check a few things. First make sure the bit is the right size for the vice or collet, most hobby grade pin vises will have one or two double ended collets( the little split thing with the hole for the bit is called a collet). If the bit slips, flip the collet around and see if the other end has a smaller hole in it and try that or any extra collets the vise came with( some vises will have a second collet under the end with the spinner). Second make sure the bit is oil and grease free, friction is what holds the bit and anything that reduces it will cause the bit to slip. Then check the collet and or split fingers of the vise. Make sure there are no chips keeping the fingers from closing, and there is no damage, I periodicly run a bit of emery cloth down between the fingers to clean things out.

When drilling you should never use more than moderate pressure, press just hard enough to get the bit to bite. If you have to bear down hard before you see chips forming the bit is to dull and should be replaced. Using to much force is what will snap bits and lead to extra holes in your person.

Paper clips are my go to pin stock as well. They're stiff enough to support more weight than you'll ever need on a mini, as well as being dirt cheap and readily available.

I pin everything, not only for security but it also makes assembly much easier. I keep two size pin vices, a larger and a smaller one for different bit sizes. If the bit is slipping into the vice it's the wrong size or not tightened enough. Keeping the protruding length short is a good piece of advice, you'll be less likely to snap the bit. Use a lubricant. Some kind of oil or even an old wax candle will help a lot. And +1 for paperclips, I've always used them and some smaller craft wire that comes cheap at Walmart. Finally, use something pointy to make a pilot notch to start. Good luck!

Aother member of the pin cult! Hail brother!

Thank you for mentioning having multiple pin vises. If you assemble a lot of mini's this is the way to go, I have at least 6 pin vises all set up with the bits I use regularly. For the most common size pins I use nice spinner top vices, for my less common needs I use cheap machinists vises that come in sets of 4 for less than $20.

Lubeing the bit I'm not really convinced is beneficial in this aplication. You lube a bit when drilling materials to reduce the friction because the heat destroys the cutting edge and weakens the steel, as well as fluch the chips from the hole. I've never managed to spin a pin vise long or fast enough to produce friction to get the bit that hot. And getting oil on mini's is never a good thing as it produces extra work since it has to be removed or the paint wonlt stick. Wax might work if you have a problem with chips sticking to the bit but you'll also my have issues with wax making any glue in the hole not bond.

I never recomend craft/floral wire as pin stock. It works, but I feel it's to soft and bends to easily to be reliable. The idea behind a pin is it takes the shear force that would break a joint so a pin that bends easily doesn't take the shear force as well. IF you need really thin pin stock I recomend plain unwound guitar string( It's hardend steel and while flexible does not bend easily when cut to pin length) or gauged brass rod( the manufacturing process work harden the brass so it preforms like the guitar string but is easier to cut).

Ok here's my disclaimer lol:

I don't insist that my way is the correct way or only way. Everything I've stated is based on 30+ years of hobby and real world experience and mistakes. Feel free to ponder, use, modify, or ignore as desired. If I can help a few I feel it's worth it.

Very true that. I tihnk my painting progress chart went something like:

paint areas flat colour ->paint midtone, wash -> paint midtone, highlights, wash -> paint shadows, midtone, highlights, wash -> paint shadows, layer and blend to midtone, layer and blend to highlights, wash -> paint midtone, blend to shadows, retouch midtone, blend to highlights, occassionally wash if needed.

Just added in one more layer of paint each time i get better. And as I got into the final stages of that list, I started thinning my paints more and more and using additives to make them behave how i wanted.

TY for helping back me up. If people would start with the basics like block painting and then add on the other layers as they learn and practice painting wouldn't hold the mysterious aura it seems to have.

I didn't touch on thinning and probably should have. I thin every paint I use and using paint out of the pot makes me cringe! It's gotten to the point that every time I'm asked for input on a paint job the first thing said is "You didn't thin your paint did you?" This is then followed by being told I'm to critical and they like painting out of the pot becasue thinning is too much work but they still pester me on how to be a better painter.

Sorry if I came off as dismissive, my intention was to explain that many people, especially novice painters, may not know what a specific technique is or if they do they may not be familiar with the particulars of its execution.

Ah, but one of the important aspects of painting that a novice has to learn is what the techniques are. The mastery of them isn't required but having an idea of what the techniques entail is since that is what you build you foundation of skill on. This is even more important in on line discussions since it's often hard to explain them in a simple sentence or two. Detailed explanations can found on line rather easily, Dr Faust's has been around forever, Cool Mini is full of really good tutorials, and there are many others.

I firmly believe there is now right way to paint and there is only the way that works for the individual and that only comes from experimentation by each individual painter. That being said when I first started I did the old bronze flesh with a wash for years and couldn't get beyond that, then had the luck to talk to a few really acomplished painters at a convention and they impressed upon me that you need to think shadow, mid tone, highlight at all times and it's crucial for skintones.

They recomended working with a simple 3 color shadow to highlight technique to start and then increase the number of layers/shades as I improved. So pick your base skin tone color, that is your mid tone, then pick you're shadow and highlight color. For example my usual "normal" skin is GW dwarf flesh mid tone, with dark flesh shadow, and elf flesh highlight.

Paint from shadow out, so base coat the shadow color, apply the mid tone leaving the shadow color where it needs to be, then the highest points get the highlight color.

Once you get the hang of it then you can start doing things like mixing the shadow and mid tone colors and having a intermediate step between the two, and doing the same with the mid tone and highlight and adding washes and glazes into the mix to soften the transitions from one color to the next.

I use the GS trick for situations like this. Mix up a little bit of GS and pinch off a tiny bit and roll into a ball, put a bit of glue on the point of contact for both parts, place the GS ball on one piece over the glue and press together. Since the GS will at this hold the parts in position enough for a little manipulation without falling apart you can quickly use something to scrap any of GS/glue that ooze out and then the catalytic reaction between the two will speed up the setting time of both. Word of caution though the GS will bond to the glue almost immediately so care must be used if you try to upscale this technique for larger parts or things with a large surface area joint.

This technique seems to render a bond that sits between just glue and being pinned and can even be used if you're pinning to render an even stronger joint.

then maybe you might consider playing a list that doesn't make people not want to play you. It's not like you have a right to a game, after all.

This gets at something I think is the root of the issue. you can play most games as a competitive solo activity- me vs you and I win when you lose, I have fun when you don't. It's zero sum.

Or you can play the game as a cooperative activity- we're playing the game to essentially tell a story that we both enjoy. Maybe it doesn't turn out exactly the way either of us thought it would but it's interesting to see how it plays out. What would happen if Rasputina met Nicodem out in the bayou when each is trying to plant evidence?

The problem is that broken lists tell a very poor story. It's a one sentence story every time- the broken list wins (barring utter incompetence of the broken list player). If all you care about is your zero sum game that's a fun time, for you. For people more interested in the cooperative game it makes no sense for them to waste their time playing you, they know how it ends and it's just not an interesting story.

If the game designers don't balance the game then of course players and people running tournaments will start refusing play for certain models/masters. They'd be crazy not to. Letting a small number of lists to ruin the entire hobby makes no sense at all.

Well said!

Hard to believe there are people who don't, or won't understand any of it though.

Getting ground into the dirt because you don't "own the right models" is no fun either.

Because the game takes two willing participants, it takes both players to agree it is fun to work. If one doesn't, it won't be a fun game on either end.

I'm with Math. I do not enjoy curb-stomping my opponent. It's not a triumph of genius, its a flaw in the game. Whether that flaw is in a disparity of player skill/experience, or in game mechanics may vary.

I have minimal experience vs FILTH, no experience vs Dreamer, and minimal experience vs Hamelin.

I will not play a Hamelin player again. That game is not fun, whether I win or lose. I don't like how it plays. I think Wyrd messed up in the design there.

I can relate to people who don't like games where they feel they have no options and just lose every time. There comes a point where you decide that maybe it's not jut you, but the game.

However, the main point is: Saying people are annoying for having an opinion contrary to yours is not polite and does nothing to advance the conversation. There is no reason to be annoyed about the fact someone doesn't like X. It's their preference.

A kindered spirt you are kind sir!

I think far to many people miss the points you made far better than I.

Striker8, all I'm saying is if you are not willing to meet in between, that's your problem and not "their" fault. They are not denying you a game, as Jonas Albrecht put it. If you can't find a gaming partner willing to play the Malifaux you like and you are not willing to give some ground to the players you have in your community, that is also your problem - gotta look for other gaming partners.

The reason why these "no fun" posts disturb me and why I speak so strong against them (even though I play rather soft lists myself) is that people unwilling to make any compromise at all come to the forums hoping the Designers will lend them an ear, modify the rules and turn the game into something they can unconditionally accept, so that all them competitive crazies *have* to change and play the game the complainers deem to be "fun" or "real Malifaux game".

This is just wrong. What is no fun to you, may be fun to others. What is a short game and wasted time for you, may be a triumph of good planning and strategic thinking for others, and great satisfaction. There's no universal platform here and you are not in the right. Neither would be the competitive players if they demanded the game to be turned into purely competitive killing grounds.

Not to mention, that as soon as the designers change the rules, there will be another thing to dislike and judge to be "no fun" and this is a vicious circle that never ends.

Malifaux is awesome game in many respects - one of the greatest achievements is that it plays perfectly in casual environment, as long as you make it clear to people the "soft" lists are expected, and it still works perfectly well in ultra-competitive environment with very hard lists. Moreover, if you want to switch from one type of play to another, you just swap 2~3 models in your list. You may have very deep story driven encounters, and you may have a battle of the minds and the mastery of the rules.

Compare that to Warhammer, which is still one of the best casual games out there, but completely falls apart (i.e. requires tons of custom rules and rulings, though GW is getting better at that) in competitive play (and requires you to collect minis for completely different game if you want to switch from one style to another), and you'll immediately see the superiority of Malifaux' ruleset. Even, if it still needs some work on the wording of certain rules (a new game after all).

What the community needs is not cuddles and not designers running left and right changing things, but for people to learn to talk over things and don't unwittingly mix up casual entertainment games with highly competitive ones (even if the later may be casual entertainment for some players). Simply talk it over before you arrange a game. And give the other side 50% of the games the way they like it, in return for their time.

This is what I mean saying the forum is not the place. Go to your gaming club and talk things over.

I think you missed a big part of my point. I see people who find certain lists un fun to play against trying to find a compromise while people such as your self keep up on how if it's in the game you just need to live with it. I think I pointed out more than once it's not the designers job to correct things PEOPLE have gone out of their way to do in ruining others enjoyment it's up to the players but you keep saying the same then inject how they should bring harder lists to placate those who suck the fun out of the game.

Stop with the spin and rhetoric. My claims are just as "right" as your's. Although I find mine are more middle of the road and you'll find more people willing to listen and contemplate the middle position than the further extrememes.

Seeing as clubs may be non existent to the majority, FLGS's that offer play space can be spotty and you will never know who is going to be present from one visit to the next in either case make the forum as good a place as any. You might not like it but people are coming here trying to figure out how to handle these problems with the help of the community at large. Some people have tried to discuss things but as usual there are those that refuse to accept the fact their idea of fun is not the way most want to play.

How do you know when the game will end? And what it has to do with the crew or combo?

I played against some turn-1 alpha strike crews and the games lasted 7 or 8 turns.

Back when I was a Malifaux Beginner, I've been wiped by turn 3 or 4 by crews like Rasputina or Nicodem.

My personal experience tells me, the faster you lose the more you have to learn the game. It's not up to the opponent, even if he brings an early strike crew - after all once you learn what an early strike crew does, you deploy with this in mind.

And the rest still stands - if it happens not because of lack of skill, but because you want to play some softer choices that cannot compete with very aggressive or mobile crews, then talk it over with them - bring one harder and one softer list and play two games.

And my original argument still stands as well - a game which is over in 2 turns is also a game of Malifaux. May not be your ideal (esp. if you consider the effort put into setting it up), but may be the kind of satisfaction which drives the other player (and who is to say he doesn't put the same effort into setting up games). You are supposed to meet in between.

Give me a break. a new player with basic knowedge of the game knows when his chance of winning is slim to none it's not the diffucult to figure out with the books and some knowedge of your opponents. Just because you're far more into this game than others and desire to play those games out doesn't make you anything more than motivated to do so. Not everyone needs to win, but most have a more enjoyable game when they at least have a chance and that is a fact.

So the faster you lose the more you need to learn? Great theory but flawed. I've seen too many people over the years who get rolled early by the cheese balls and power gamers that they didn't stick around long enough to learn much of anything. Add to that the casual players that don't have the time or inclination to learn all the intricacies you need to know to play against the power lists in any game that you're theory can drive out.

If you want to play a game that lasts 2 turns be my guest, I and many other don't enjoy it and I'll stand by my argument that no one has to play anyone else if they aren't going to enjoy the game

The reverse of this question is:

Why should your subjective vision of a game of Malifaux deny them a game of Malifaux with the legal (and still fluffy) crew they have bought, painted (to high standard perhaps), not to mention the time they've spend going through the rules to come up with the combo (giving the benefit of the doubt, that it isn't just an internet list).

And the answer is that this is a game for two and you give some to get some. If they have a hard list they want to try out very bad, propose two games to them - the first or second with a softer list you may enjoy. Or power up your own list a little so it doesn't end in the turn 1.

Or go further and make soft list gaming days and hard list gaming days in your club, if you think situation really is that dire (personally I don't see it, but that may just be me).

Why should your subjective vison that anything that's "legal" is fine have any more weight? Or do you subscribe to the idea that if you can you should and screw it if no one else has any enjoyment?

I see you got the idea the game takes at least two players to play. Why is it so hard for you to get it that some lists are just not fun to play against? Everyone is different, and if you or some one else enjoys the "challenge" others may find it less challenging and less enjoyable. Yeah players need to talk these things out but to basicly say you're entitled to a game from anyone shows other problems. IF your playing a list in any game I find un enjoyable to play against guess what? I'm not playing you and you're not going to be able to argue your way into me changing that, you may be able to negotiate me into it but your argument will not work.

I don't do clubs but I've seen the hard/soft format attempted in the store setting with other games and it failed rather quickly just based on people being people. A hard guy can only make it on soft days and come in and angers the soft guys, a soft guy can only make it on hard days and quits since he's not having any fun and the hard guys give him crap for not being hard enough.

It's not about whether I like Filth or not, or whether I am contrarian or not. I also don't care whether other likes or dislike FILTH list and give them full right to do so.

Two points:

- Why in this thread?

- Why do you (and others) feel it is OK to flaunt not-having-fun in face of people who may have fun with it, but it isn't ok to flaunt not-liking-posts-about-not-having-fun in your face? Double standards?

I'm merely expressing my dislike for such posts, because they turn perfectly rational discussion into emotional outbursts.

Talk about having tunnel vision. I think a game forum is the place to voice your dislike for people playing in a manner that is not fun. It's not flaunting it, it showing how certain things can drive players away instead of attracting them.

I'm going to call you a hypocrit on not likeing one post then you turn around and post how you hate those posts. How's this for you I dislike all your posts so you should never post again. Do you get the point?

Damn that was a mass of reading from start to end of thread.

This whole thing is a people issue whether you want to accept it or not but it is. While there is group of people who picked one of the so not fun to play against without knowing that fact there are ten fold times 10+ chose these for a different reason all together. These people are the ones who chose their desire to win above anyone elses enjoyment of the game. The people in the first group unfortunatley get lumped in with the second but they should be able to show and explain to people they aren't trying to suck the fun out of the game.

You really can't blame the designers since there are people out there who do play these supposed bad crews and masters with their opponents in consideration. I've had enjoyable games against both The Dreamer and Pandora being played by such people. These people understand that while the designers may have slipped up some playing the game takes at least two people so they don't do things just because they can and self regulate if need be. On the other side of the coin you have those so focused on picking what wins, and claiming that they can because the designers put it in they ruin it for others. You see how it's a people issue?

Those arguing that people just need get a counter force and/or learn how to deal with these few masters and crews need to take a step back and think a bit. While on the surface it sounds great, not everyone has the time or inclination to put that much effort into a game when the issue is just with a few people. The same can be said for buying mini's to counter these crews/players why buy mini's you don't particularly like that you'll only use rarely for a few trouble makers. This wouldn't be an issue if people would self regulate would it?

In days past gamers policed their own, the ones making it not fun and enjoyable were told to stop and if that failed eventually changed their ways or they moved on since no one would play them. Now it seems people are afraid to do this but it worked in the past and still works today you just need to exercise your right to say no to a game if it will not be enjoyable to you to play. See people can help correct the problem

Flighty gamers have been around as long as I have been in the wargaming hobby and it was common before I got involved and will continue forever

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My group actually has a term for it, "Gamer ADD," but it's really a combination of ADD and OCD with a few others thrown in. We all have it in some fashion and its part and parcel to the type of people who enjoy the hobby.

It manifests it's self in different ways in different people and some of us control it a bit better than others. I'm a lead addict and have enough mini's for the armies and systems I play to build multiple armies but focus on one for each system, and while I don't do it now I use to buy rule sets like some women buy cheap romance novels. And we all know the guy that has to have the latest army even though he has others unbuilt or painted, the guy that jumps from army to army constantly, the guy who picks up every new game that comes out, and there are so many other symptoms of this idiosyncracy.

I will also say games tend to run in a cyclic fashion. One will go strong for a few months then be slowly replaced with another that will run for a few months. This repeats constantly with the older more established games rotating in an out more often. While this cycle is going on you still have people playing other stuff on the side and one of those side games may be the next main game in the cycle you just never know.

The indignation, and taking offence to everything a game company does that you hear online is realtively new and I chalk it up to people joining the internet mobs and things outside of gaming proper.

I like 6+. Usually more like 7-8. I've done 4 and 5, and just always wished I had more.

6+ seems a good amount from the couple of games I have played with her, shes doesnt usually need them to hit things but they definitely help keep her alive

I'll third that. With Lady J you need to have at least 6SS with 7 or 8 preffered. The trick is the stones are basicly only used for healing and damage reduction, but if you have a decent :masks in your hand or on a df flip you SS it for that repost! Nothing beats kicking out at a minimum a and on average a :+fate damage flip on your opponents attack to ruin they're plans.

Pros:

Zombie hookers

Cons:

Needs more zombie hookers.

If I didn't already play that would probably set the hook right there! lol

I took to the game for a few reasons. First off it's an actual skirmish game, meaning outside a few masters your force is generaly 10 mini's or less. It also means I could have all my mini's painted and looking good in a week or two.

The card mechanic is a pleasant change from dice and gives a different feel.

I love the mini's and the setting has a depth that gets you identifying with the characters that populate it.

The last reason, and one that relates to my love of mini's in general was even if I didn't like the game I wasn't out much and still had some nice mini's.

Now at this point I want to put this comment I saw a few times about how the rules are convolutued. In the first book I think most of us will agree the organization was daunting at times and out right maddening at others, but with the release of the rules manual that is all in the past. The rules manual is very well organized and even if you can't find something were you think it would be, the index will put you right on it.

The nice part about Malifuax is you can really build up your collection of units as the mood takes you. A Crew box to start, and you can go a thousand directions from there depending on your own personal tastes and desires.

I started playing with and old Lady J box I got years ago at Gen Con before there was a game I then just picked the mini's I thought were the coolest looking, I could use with what I already had, and get painted in a reasonable amout of time. My first add-on was the Scales and I played a few more games and decided the Stalkers were cool looking and I liked the indian scout look of Samael so I got the Sonia box and got a bonus Master at a reasonable price. Since then I've added a bunch of other mini's and recently bought the Hoffman box for the same reason I got Sonia's. I aproached things my way and I am more than happy with how it has worked for me. Hell I even win about 50% of the time and I have cool looking toys.

I know guys who like to play different factions as the mood strikes so they'll buy a crew box and a few add-ons all at once one week, a few weeks later they'll do it again with another faction. That's what works for them and I support their choice.

The only method of expansion I take a dim view of is what I call the "One army to rule them all" technique. Where coolness and fun are replaced with how powerful something is and will it make me win.

In the end as long as everyone involved get an entertaining game the choices are up to you.