Gruesome

...Killed a Rail Golem, Gun Vik, Ronin and a Supply Wagon, while healing himself back to full and ending the game holding the Treasure Counter.

psssh....

Just ONE of the viks? lame.

I hope to see for myself soon. I am still a bit burnt out from Adepticon prep on "build and paint too man models", so Toshiro and Yin are actually still in their boxes...

If you hire a Shikome though, it can give Prey to a Shikome that gets summoned with its (0) action.

The enemy model with 2 Shikome targeting it is an unhappy model. (But the rest of the enemy crew can really mess with your Shikomes...)

It just keeps going around and around... They will or will not lose money...

Its just such an odd concern to me in a world filled with scanners and photocopiers...

Why does ANYONE buy models today?

Buy the book and you are DONE...

Heck, BORROW your friend's book and you are DONE...

Everything you need is waiting for you at Kinko's for less than $5...

Yet all these companies stay in business...

Could it be that people like the models?

Go figure.

Can someone just please call someone else a Nazi already so that we can move on?

Actually, I don't think that's the argument at all. It's a related discussion point, but the argument to me is are we entitled to free rules from Wyrd and are they greedy if they charge for them.

But what difference does that make?

And why would Wyrd care if customers and potential customers feel "entitled" to things.

I guess I am off base but I thought this was about whether its a good idea or not to release the rules and stats for free.

You seem to be saying that its really about talking about our "feelings"?

No thanks, Nancy...

This entire thread seems to boil down to two mindsets...

1. That giving away rules and stats for free will make many people that would have otherwise bought the models/cards not buy them and Wyrd will lose money.

2. That giving away rules and stats for free will introduce more people to the game than would have checked it out otherwise and that will eventually sales that might not have happened otherwise and that maybe some people that could potentially quit the game with the new version might not. (I have no idea whether anyone will quit. I hope not.)

From a business perspective, you either believe #1 or #2...

Everything else is varying degrees of argument about those two concepts.

If no one's mind can be changed about what they believe, then its pointless to continue the discussion

That sounds pretty reasonable, but it only works if everyone is just as willing to put in that forethought. Unfortunately, I know my playgroup and that's not the case I could be fully prepared and ready to go at a moment's notice, and they'll still spend 30+ minutes getting ready, or they might simply not want to play because it would take them 30+ minutes getting ready.

I could understand that.

I guess to me that you could just tell them to bring all-comers then. And with your preparation and growing experience.. You can trounce them!

And then eventually maybe they thinks its worth thinking a bit in advance. You can only lead a horse to water...

Honestly, aside from a tournament, I seldom give any thought anymore prior to the game. (Some would argue DURING the game too)

When you have played the strats and schemes often enough, you know what you like for them. The only variables you need additionally account for is whether the enemy faction and schemes have anything you want to specifically deal with.

I honestly don't see a very strong argument being presented for Wyrd giving away the stats on their models for free. Does any other successful company make all their rules available for free? That's an actual question. Has anyone on this board studied business and this particular niche market in particular enough to be willing to discuss this matter.

Not particularly "fighting" for anything, but I'll throw my 2 cents in.

I'd start with a question... What is the measure of "success" that you want to grant the companies that do not give their rules away?

I am often told that miniature gaming is such a small and niche market and that there will only ever be a small percentage of any given populace that will choose to participate.

What we can definitely say is that for the things that have been tried by the companies with the means to do so, that that seems to be true so far.

Now let me ask what companies with the means to do so have gone out of business by making a version of their rules and model stats free for download, but maintained the need to purchase them for events or to play in the stores that sell them?

Dunno... I am not familiar with any.

Its pieces of paper with numbers written on them in a world of photocopiers, scanners and bittorrent.

Free PDFs is an opportunity to MAKE NEW FRIENDS and SATISFY CURRENT ONES.

Again, I believe that there are a number of areas for which real, purchased cards ought to be necessary.

I have watched the software industry pretend for years that every illegal copy was a lost sale... Its just not true.

Think of the PDFs as shareware versions... Demos... Whatever...

They get people to use the things and learn them and if they ever want to step to the plate, they gotta pay up.

That's my 02 cents...

Personally, I am buying the new cards. I like new stuff.

PR for Wyrd... lol...

Homie don't play dat.

Heck, I can't even say nice things about myself...

Free PDFs would not bother me at all. Its like trying to argue that software piracy ruined the software industry. (see: Dumb-ass Assertion)

When its all said and done, more people is good.

Want to play in an event? Pay up.

Want to play at the store with the henchman and all the other people there? Pay up.

Saw the game at a store and want to see what its about? Download away baby! Give it a whirl. Like it? Come on down to the store and join the rest of us... There is a tourney next weekend. (Pay up)

I like the idea of people trying things out. It keeps the burden of models remaining competitive and useful on the company, where it should be.

IMO, people WANT to buy useful and fun things. Keep making them and people will keep buying. (Until your wife starts checking your credit card online after your every trip to the store)

If Ratty says so. Still,sad. This would've made Nicodem,Avatar of Decay,really good. Now he's just good.

Not steppingon your authority,Ratty,just sighing.

He is great.

Another thing to understand that was ALSO ruled in this way was McMourning's manifest requirement. Corpses of models HE killed that he picks up and converts into BP count towards his manifest requirements. In these two scenarios the corpses keep some sort of "memory" of their source.

My real problem with it is simply that we play multiple games but have a limited amount of time to meet-up and play. Crew selection at game start-up, rather than prior, really can slow things down. Not only do I have to select my models and select my schemes, but I now also have to decide if I want upgrades for any/all of my models?

That makes a lot of sense to me. Fortunately, I think some of it can be addressed pretty quickly. (Other bits I think are more a function of experience, so not really a quick fix)

I'd recommend downloading and sleeving the strat and scheme cards that you can get. Really helps speed things up without going to reference tables, etc.

If you have an idea or get things established via meetup, you can also simply pre-arrange.

In terms of crew building to the strat and schemes... That can be quick when you know your crew well, but I understand why that can be more difficult if you don't do it a lot.

What I tend to have is a core of models that I like for each of my masters and its really about what outlier scheme specific additions I am going to make.

So, what you can do in advance is just think through what masters you like for what strats and beyond that, what core 1-3 models you like with that master with that strat. Once you are used to that, its really just about knowing what schemes you like with the strats.

I view it like having a bunch of incomplete recipes that I tailor the spices to once I know more...

Essentially I'd really like to see the balance addressed in such a way that an all-comer list approach is viable. Currently, I don't think it is for the majority of Masters.

Interesting. I'd like to see the opposite and the death of all-comers.

Strat/Scheme selection in light of crew construction is one of the aspects I really like about the game. All-comers are the opposite.

I have plenty of alternate game system choices where I can build all-comer lists all day long.

But, its just my personal preference that this game try to not be like other games in that regard.

Funny enough, there are areas where the concern is the other way and people are worried about a wholesale switch to 2.0 and a loss of a Malifaux Classic community.

I am going to retire using the term v1.0...

I like that better.

oooohhh... or "Legacy Malifaux"?

In terms of the actual concerns, I will admit that I am excited for the open beta and would be more inclined to want to do that at my gaming store than play "Old School Malifaux".

But... I'd also be willing to play someone in "Retro-Faux" if that's what they insisted we play and they had no other alternative. So, I think ultimately it will be all about your friends/stores/henchman as to whether the shift will be any sort of impact whatsoever.

I intend to play v1.0 until I would rather play v2.0.

Not sure why anyone would view it differently.

Its not an MMO software release where a switch is flipped some night.

Pandora: Df 3. Everything else can go.

hahahahahaha!

My favorite.

Molly was Miss Treated, silly goose!

actually I don't trust Wyrd after Games workshop and D&D 4.0. Yeah, and that mack guy even said he couldn't get the job done himself, so he had to bring in someone that came up with a lot of the Rogue trader and deathwatch RPGs. He is basically admitting, "hey, I really can't do this, someone else give me your idea's please"

That seems like an odd attitude to have. Getting help from knowledgeable people seems like a smart thing to do when there is more than you can handle.

Every single assumption you make seems to be "whats the worst thing that can happen?".

I am sure there will be all sorts of things that people disagree with in the next version.

Some things will likely be because people hate change.

Some things will be because BROKEN STUFF from v1.0 is hopefully not broken anymore.

Some things will be based upon personal preferences and interests. (Probably most things here)

And maybe some things turn out to not be as good as they could or should be...

But in the history of Wyrd, for the first time, you have been told that you get to HELP IN THE PROCESS!

As I said to start, seems like an odd attitude to me.

I remember when Sandwich had such a visceral reaction to book 4 early info and felt that Rezzers were shafted and Neverborn got all the best stuff again...

Obviously you are not in that ballpark, but it does seem like you are judging pretty quick with little or no information.

People keep saying this but just for repititions sake: your "1e" models will still work in 2e. They'll just get new stat cards. Once again, YOUR MODELS WILL NOT GO AWAY. Buy whatever you want and play it for the 3-6 months until 2e is properly out. And then get new CARDS, not new MODELS, and keep playing them. There's zero reason to wait if you are set and primed to play Malifaux now. You can play tomorrow. You can play those same models in a year. You don't have to buy new models for 2e.

... and you can play the beta test in 30 days too...

If anything, I would think right now would be a GREAT time to pick up a new crew and to learn about what they were so that when the open beta starts(Very soon) I could help understand where they are going and perhaps even make suggestions.

I can think of at least one crew that I am thinking about buying now because I like the metal versions and have an interest in testing quite a bit during the open beta.

As a consolation Von Schill will be the only Septuble-Faction model in the game. Just so he can remain the best henchman or I guess master in every faction.

I thought he was his own faction, Schill-town.

He does not need LoS to enemy models because he has Orbital lasers with Flurry and a defensive trigger that lets him sacrifice ENEMY models within 36 inches instead of taking damage.

I have found that taking chiaki and pushing her very close to combat with models like Toshiro and Izamu can be pretty good. Not only does she hand out 1 wd to each friendly model activating, but she also adds more damage to weight of ages on enemy models nearby, is in range for the slowing pulse, and if Izamu gets swamped by other models she can use her 6" pulse push to push everyone off Izamu.

But all of that is predicated on her facing a non-living and in some cases undead opponent.

So many living crews around these days it seems...

I'm willing to bet we're looking at a bit of standardization of abilities, or abilities listed on cards in symbol format.

ahhhhhh!!!!

Symbol wars!!!!!!!!!

maybe I won't be quite as bad at this version!

I am excited for a new version because it was getting hard to rationalize being so bad at something I have been playing for almost 3 years.

NOW I can be bad at something new!!!

Necrons OP!!!!

Well, as I mentioned, situation-dependent Izamu can be better with Nicodem. But there is plenty of scenarios where he is better with Yan Lo because he can come back.

I was simply commenting on the idea that he was in some way possibly overpriced because he is not. (And for the record, I do not want to pay 11. )

As an aside, Chiaki cannot push Izamu around. Purity targets Wp and he is I2I.

Its interesting to me that running Izamu with Nicodem instead of Yan Lo, what I miss more is actually Soul Porter rather than the ability to bring back Izamu that Yan Lo brings. Decay heals bounced off Grave Spirit keep him healthy but I miss the movement. I agree he is a brick, but with Yan Lo, he is actually a FAST brick because of empower ancestor. I have not tried a Mortimer pairing with him yet to see if Fresh Meat would compensate for the loss of speed.

Additionally, running Izamu with Nico instead of Dead rider means that if he should actually die, he drops 3 corpses rather than just 1.

All this having been said, I am motivated to assemble my Yin tonight. (And Toshiro)