Sandwich

Just confirming my participation.

I need clarification of 1 thing

What do you mean by theme?

Are we talking the Movie the Hangover?

Do you want it a prominent factor of the work?

Or do you want it to be referenced continually?

I'm not 100% on the intent.

Because I'm dyslexic.

Immune to Influence does prevent Spirits from using Cb->Wp and that is the express purpose of (1)Mark of Jigoku.

I mean no harm when I say that the specific interaction you just stated (Although with incorrect Damage was dealt,) is my utmost favorite thing to see.

It is the exact moment that you realize the ever-changing nature of Malifaux.

And the brutality it sheds against generalized lists.

You can't tell me you'll ever go into a game with the same mindset, can you?

interesting alright definately things to look into thanks now on to testing out the current build I have and then trying to figure out how to test all but the rogue necromancy just have to get the chance to use him (the one game I got to use him had to summon him every turn starting turn 2)

Super powerful combo is Necrotic Machine + Convict Gunslinger, and then maintaining Bolster Undead.

Shooting off bullets at Cb 8 with 2/3/4 Dg, coupled with 6 Df is in no way a joke.

Canine remain do not have a synergy with the Mad Hatter, but they do make lovely Dead Doxy when they die.

Which doesn't say much for how pretty they are.

The problem with using Dogs for a Kill/revive trick is that your enemy can just ignore them and force you to waste AP on killing them yourself, which can sometimes cause a serious clutch round where you waste AP murking your own models and your opponent is then able to out-maneuver you.

If that makes sense, which I don't think I made it do too much of.

Was playing a game just tonight wherein I took Rafkin again as I really want him to work.

Went back to Nicodem because I had treasure hunt and my son had claim jump.

I felt that by taking "stake a claim" close to his claim jump and "hold out" that I'd be able to move my slow crew to the claim jump halfway up the board (He put it to one edge) and hopefully overwhelm him with hordes.

I also had Night Terrors to hopefully snag the treasure super-fast and get it to my deployment zone then send them after anything trying to flank me to ruin my holdout. (I figured he could not spare too much muscle for the flank or my main bubble would blow him off of his claim jump)

So, plan (Strat/Schemes/Models) in place, we started. Rafkin did what he seems to do better than any other model I have, which is kill 3 dogs. (I do not care what anyone else says about killing your own models, IMO, its automatic now to have Nicodem "Arise" 3 MZ turn one so that he can use "bolster" the rest of the game until such a time as he chooses to manifest)

With the MZ's created, then subsequently turned into a Flesh Construct, leaving remaining MZ for protection or eventual "conversion" to another 30MM utility model, I moved out. Rafkin is now sitting on 5 Body Parts and I am feeling like this might be his moment to shine.

Then things start happening and he is not close enough to do things and I do not have the grossly high crow-card he needs to make mindless zombies and he just generally has to burn his body parts to get fast to even become involved, all the while skirting danger with the knowledge that one hard hitter can take him out in an activation.

Whats funny is that despite him not being useful this game (So far, we had to continue tomorrow) I actually *DID* find what I hope is a use for the Carrion Effigy I am still struggling with.

I knew he had claim jump and HOPED he would put the objective near something I could hide behind and sure enough he did. So now, with his peacekeeper parked and more constructs on their way, I have a carrion effigy ready to spoil their day and STRIP their immune to influence so that a newly manifested Nicodem can paralyze them and then start dropping decay bombs and Punk zombies on their heads.

... Unless he reads this post I guess... :Sad_Puppet1:

Anyway, the game is not over, but so far, once again, Rafkin is feeling dead-weight'ish. He is slow and vulnerable. Maybe he will pull off something clutch by granting my entire crew hard to kill or something, but we'll see.

At least keep me updated with the turnabout.

---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:39 PM ----------

I agree with your points on Kirai and her intended minions 100%, Sandwich. I don't think I've used HER spirits once, in any other Resser crew. For 5ss Nico, McM and Seamus can have a PZ that is better in combat than an Onryo and drops a CC...why would I take an Onryo with any of them. Also, 2 of the 3 masters have abilities that requires the Undead characteristic to be effective. The spirits in book 2 were obviously designed to work SPECIFICALLY with Kirai and not with the rest of the faction. To make this point all the more clear, Kirai her self has a limitation on the models without spirit she can take. It just seems that as a faction we are divided, playing 2 factions in one.

Onryo ignore armor and can strip Wp immunities and bonuses, making Terror Schemes and Belle spam lists more effective.

That list is very lacking in the night terror and canine remains part. Need something to get those objectives while everyone is bumbling around. Crooked men also make great partners for rotten belles.

Derrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrp.

I ALWAYS forget the Night Terrors.

Damn it.

- - - - -

Canine Remains are iffy with Seamus.

They don't synergize very well with him, at least in my experience.

Especially with access to Night Terrors.

- - - - -

A good pool for the good ol boy,

A couple models haven't been released yet, but I'm including them anyway so you know what to keep an eye out for.

Seamus

A.Seamus

Molly

Von Schill

EDIT: Night Terrors

Freikorps Trapper

Dead Doxy

Convict Gunslinger

Lazarus

Onryo

Sue

Rotten Belle

It gives you enough toys to deal with most problems.

---------- Post added at 04:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:30 PM ----------

And if you need any help with anything strategy / model / scheme / nifty idea related, just ask and I'll give you a 50 page essay on everything I know.

I find Sandwych's argument biased. I don't believe there is any serious flaws in Rezzers design, when compared to other factions and I think the argument is deliberately exaggerated to make it seem so.

For example, Colette's crew is just a closed as Kirai's. While other masters, even from other factions, can hire Performers, there's very little reason to do so and it is almost unheard of (outside of experimental builds). Coryphée being the only model really useful to Arcanists in general are exactly like Shikome in that their relative power drops once they leave Showgirls' crew (no Mannequins, no Doves, no teleportation tricks). Neverborn probably have the most use for the new master's minions, with both Copellius and Stitched useful for 3 out of 4 masters, but then there are Outcasts who have no use at all for Hamelin Minions and are even worse off than Rezzers in this aspect.

The same goes for Molly - she may be suboptimal or very hard to use, but she is viable choice for all the Book 1 masters. Even Neverborn Henchman doesn't mesh up with all the Book 1 masters, not to mention obviously restricted Outcast choices.

Another problem is mixing up own tastes and ideology with the pragmatic undertone of Malifaux fluff. There is no such thing as faction-purity in Malifaux. In fluff everybody works with everybody and you fight side by side with your worst enemies should a bigger threat appear, but for some reason the models useable by other factions are worth "less" for Rezzers?!? How? How is the fact that a model drops more scrap counters an insult, when it is a construct? How is Carrion Effigy fluff making it a Neverborn model?

A lot of the analysis of relative model power ignores obvious synergies or skips them in an somewhat perplexing way. Rafkin is a good example of this - obviously it is not his abilities but the way he multiplies Corpse Counters which serves the faction the most (isn't one of the chief complaints the lack of Corpse Counter-dropping opponents?!). In case you haven't noticed, with Rafkin Mindless Zombies are useful (mostly as walking Corpse Counters, with lack of control being the only drawback) for all 3 Book 1 masters and Molly, perhaps time to buy some?

I don't think the appearance of Kirai did anything wrong to Rezzers. I also disagree that the minions are weaker - on the contrary, for their costs the stats and abilities are at least very decent if not plain out superior to many other choices. Sure, there's nothing comparable to Twins and their incredible Synergy, but there are no models coming at that price tag either. And when you take ~14SS of Rezzer models, there are tools to deal with such an opponent too, just the approach would be different.

In other words, I don't think the comparisons with other factions (as they are being made here) go deep enough. I don't think they are relevant either. The game is by design asymmetric, both in faction design and gameplay, so minion for minion comparison focuses on the wrong aspect of the problem - it creates an illusion of noticeable imbalance where there's little to none.

What I'd rather focus on is victory conditions. This is the area where Rezzers may actually underperform and it is an entirely internal problem for the faction which is often summed up as lack of mobility. IMO it is not the lack of mobility which is the problem, but too much stress put on mobility in the Victory Conditions. All the factions would gain on relative balance, if mobility was knocked down a notch.

Rules Manual has brought a very large selection of Strategies and schemes. We can generally divide them into three categories:

1. Mobility

2. Combat superiority

3. Territory grab and defense

I feel Rules Manual has pushed the Strategies heavily into the first category. It wasn't the case in the Book 1, where both the mobility gap was lower and the lower number of Strategies ensured the third category would pop up more often.

Other than Claim Jump there really is no strategy in the 3rd category (currently) and while pure combat should give some advantage to the Undead, the Slaughter's scoring system is detrimental to crews that re-summon models and use them as cannon fodder.

Plant Evidence and Line in the sand are the great example of Strategies that seem to be Territory/defense related and end up being pure Mobility fests. Try to play Plant Evidence so that the opponent doesn't need to be in melee to block the interact action, but merely in the same table quarter and within LoS. It forces the evidence-planter (so to speak) to deal with the defenders first and turns the game around.

If the Strategies and Schemes were to be more evenly spread among these three types of missions, I feel Rezzers would win more games. There's a reason why Horrors are such a hype with the faction right now.

My argument isn't really biased, there isn't much room for a bias to be present.

And you're mostly right about Colette's crew being pretty closed off from the rest of the faction.

The problem with your argument is that Colette's 'crew' is comprised of

Colette

Doves

Cassandra

Coryphee / Duet

Performer / Mannequin

And telling me that I intentionally understate a model to bring home a point and then say that the Coryphee are anything less than auto-include in almost any strategy or scheme is very hypocritical.

Removing Colette and her doves from that mix, that's 3 models out of 12.

Moving over to the Resurrectionists,

Kirai's 'crew comprises of

Kirai

Ikiryo

Lost Love

Datsue-Ba

Gaki

Onryo

Seishin

Shikome

Removing Kirai and her Totem, that's 6 out of 12.

That is half of the models designed for our Faction that work with one master.

None of those models have usability outside of Kirai, except for the Onryo and that's only for combat oriented games, and feel free to take any of those spirits with any of the other three Masters and tell me how well that goes in a competitive game.

So right there, we can cut out any idea of "Strategy / Schemes are the imbalance"

Where all other factions got something around 8 models for every master, we got 6.

Out of that 6, we have 3 that people even consider using,

Those three are Molly, the Night Terror, and the Dead Rider, hell I'll even throw in the Rogue Necromancy.

So in summation of that, we got 4 models that can be used by the rest of the faction.

I don't think there's some sleeper OP strategy to the Guild Autopsy or the Necrotic Machine, either.

So I only managed to get in one full game (5 turns) and two halfsies (2 turns and 3 turns respectively) with the Grinning Skull before I had to take off for a while,

Problems encountered;

1.) They need to be Rare 2 because only taking one is just a terrible idea, but bringing any more than 2 is overpowered.

Ideas to fix

- Increase to Rare 2

2.) Their squishiness (Even with a Df 6), paired with their gimmick of replacing Corpse counters with Wd is HARD countered by a single ranged model focusing them down as if they take more than 1 Wd, they're completely worthless.

- Make them Spirits

- Or, remove Eerie Glow (My main suggestion, as it absolutely negates their Df 6.)

- Or, increase the Range of Unwholesome Wellspring to 8ish inches (Could do both)

- - - -

Other than that

1.) They compliment Seamus well, able to indepentantly move about the board until the crew gets into the thick of it, at which point his Arise my Sweets spell becomes very, very powerful.

2.) They work wonders with the Corpseroot, especially at Rare 2. I had a fairly decent machine of Summoning a Dog with Nico, killing it with a Punk, and whipping out another Corpseroot that the skull would then smack and heal off of.

I think I got about 2 bonus Corpseroots out this way, which helped to lock down Pandora fairly great.

3.) They also work well with the Bone Thief and a Belle, because of the free Corpse Counter Nico can get and nasty explodey bits.

- - - -

I like them because they're niche enough to not always be an auto-include, but strong enough that they're a prevalent choices in some scenarios.

Very well done homebrew, for certain.

I'm gonna be playtesting a couple games real quicklike with my girlypal, I'm gonna include this model into the pool and I'll report back to you.

The theme and flavor are quite good, and I like the poem.

For Defile, I think you mean that models that move over the terrain receive a Poison Token, right? Not Poison 1, which is a buff.

For Vile Purpose, does the enemy model need to be within the aura, or the Corpse Counter?

Between Sick Pleasures and The Darkness Spreads, this model seems like it may be a little tough for a 5 cost. A Wp up-to-10 model that can paralyze on a Wp duel at 6" range as a (1) action is a better paralyzer than a 9-point specialist. This thing can, set up properly and with a few Rams in hand, paralyze 3 models of any power level every round. Is that what you're looking for?

1.) Yeah, I meant that.

I'm still stuck on the old wordings. :x

2.) The enemy model needs to be in the aura.

3.) cuddled the trigger to once per turn, reduced Wp to 4 and bonus to +3, also reduced the range of Defile Mind to 4".

Thanks for calling that crazy business out.

Gonna test out a couple games with a few of these models for a bit.

Not union miner, Soul Stone Miner.

Book 2 construct for Arcanists.

He can steal the (1)Tunneling Action from it and move freely about the board.

It's a very, very powerful (And relatively cheap) combo

I actually kinda like it.

It's thematically strange but has an obvious niche.

A few things I'd want to work out.

1.) It's unsummonable but has a Wk of 4, meaning that the safest strategy for it would be to hide it in the back somewhere with a Belle

2.) It looks like there's a high cheese potential of hiding it in your Deployment zone with a Rotten Belle and using its Wd to free summon while letting it eat face off of the Belle to keep its Wd up. (She's got 8, so she's a pretty effective battery.)

What I'd do to fix this is add a relatively short range to Unwholesome Wellspring so it must be in the fray of things, but I wouldn't remove the ability to heal off of friendly models because that is by far one of the less cheesy things available to people in Malifaux.

2.) I think for (1)Grim Beacon you meant for it to be a .

3.) I personally think +1 Cb on Disengaging strikes is more fair for a 3 Pt model, especially one that has Wicked and a self heal trigger.

Other than that, I'd for sure auto-include it in a lot of Seamus / Nico lists because more summoning is better summoning.

C.Hoffman once got stuck up on a single Crooligan standing on a Dynamite marker he needed.

None of his models could disengage, so he had to bury with the Soul Stone miner and AFK because he knew that as soon as he popped back up A.Seamus would be right on top of him with a big nasty smile and giant green hamfists.

Suffice to say, we lol'd pretty hard all game.

At the very least, I have to appreciate having a good block of text to read, Sandwich. I also like having a well-thought-out critique of what's going on. Thanks for contributing to a (quite long, drawn out, and seemingly neverending) conversation.

I do my best to nerdout sometimes. ;D

Yeah good point. Does anyone actually try to do the Seamus Strategy I know I've never bothered.

I've tried to leave Corpse Counters around the map.

It's really hard.

Really really hard.

And it works directly against the basic makeup of the faction.

So...

So Nerdelemental has the 0: Link (Keltheos) ability?

---------- Post added at 06:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------

Love him, he helped Seamus butcher a number of models by constantly trading places with him.

Back on topic (or should I say to the original off topic)

Having played in a few competitive events, I think the biggest problem with the Ressers (once again in competitive play only, think they are fine in casual play environments) is the speed at which they develop.

During our last competitive event (fixed master 30 SS scraps with 15 SS "side board", summoned models not included) the average game length was 4 turns (with 1 hour 15 minutes rounds). My Seamus crew had a very difficult time getting everything going, especially against the crews that were either just plain faster (Lilith and the Terror Tots), that could strike deeper and harder (Lucius with the Austringers) or didn't produce a lot of corpse counters (Hoffman with his construct buddies).

When your faction is really geared toward attrition style warfare each unplayed round puts you at a significant disadvantage.

I think you're right, and I'm also kind of afraid of Attrition.

Because it takes a masterful balance of buildup versus payoff.

If there's too much buildup (Like right now) the faction is ineffective versus the opponent,

If there's too much payoff, the faction sucks early and utterly destroys late.

I fully believe that if Wyrd supports my(And a few other people) opinion(s), they'll do a great job at subtly bumping the faction up to par, because right now the Imbalance (That I perceive) is small enough where you CAN win, but big enough where there's often a lot of frustration in most games.

Is the poem stupid?

Does it accomplish the thematic setting I want to create?

Nico is the most reliant on Corpse Counters in more scenarios than any other master.

He can win, and if you're against a living crew (Or bringing his Avatar, holy s**** that thing is insane) he's actually really, really powerful.

If you aren't versus a living crew or a crew with unanimously low Wp (Read: Gremlins, and only gremlins.) he's going to have a tough time.

I suggest trying to not do the "Kill my dogs make Punk Zombies / Belles" strategy because it'll really just stem everything you try to do later on.

Your getting lazy and not putting stories up ... down that road leads to confusion, aggravation and eventually errata because it doesn't match up with the fluff later.

*grin*

You... Read my stories?

So rad.

So so rad.

So so so rad.

---------- Post added at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 PM ----------

And I think the SS cost should be 5 and not 4... but that's just me.

Perhaps Rare 2 or 3 also.

Hey thanks.

I think 4 Soul Stones is fine, but I will agree on the Rare 3.

Hey look a story!

;D

And while you're at it, if you have the time.

You should critique my other stories!

Follow the link in my Sig and then check out those awesome model stories!

(But beware, a couple don't have stories.)

except you could move a canine where you want it to pop then kill it yourself, so still highly mobile.....

Way too powerful for a 4ss model, especially most 4ss models are only 6 wds, and either have HtK or HtW or Regen, not all 3.

Drop HtK, take away wicked, lose the +4" trigger on the spore cloud. Change the language so that it can't spawn any more of itself if it has 2 Wd or less.... Make it Regen 1, not regen 2.

I'd also change the damage on the maw to 2/2/4.

Even then I'd see it as a very good buy at 4ss.

I totally forgot about Hard To Kill.

I'd actually meant to remove that and just didn't.

Also, thank you for pointing out how unclear the Summon was when interacting with 2 Wds.

I had intended it to be "No summon if you're at 3 Wd or less."

After playing a game last night, I'm thinking to keep the stat card the same, and increasing the cost to 5 SS, because at that point it'll cost you 7+ Soul Stones to make this model highly mobile.

Leaving Hard to Wound and Regen 2 because it causes far too much damage to itself for it to be a feasible model without passive regen.

Leaving the Trigger on the Spore Cloud but clarifying that it only interacts with other clouds if a model enters more than one in a single move, not consecutive clouds.

The damage on the maw is fairly lenient as it will more often than not do Weak Damage, so I think 2/3/4 is decently rewarding.

Bone Thief

Undead, Graverobber, Rare 3

30 MM Base

Soul Stone Cost: 4

Wk/Cg: 6/10

Ht: 2

Wp: 5

Ca: 4:crows

Df: 3

Wd: 6

Ravaging Claws

Rg: 2

Cb: 5:crows

Dg: 1/2/4

TALENTS

Weapons

Ravaging Claws: Paired.

Abilities

Hard to Wound 1

Ruthless

Crypt Thieves: This model gains +2 Wk when Climbing.

Hooligans: This model gains Terrifying -> 11 when within 4" of 1 or more Bone Thief or Crooligan models.

Go-Getter: This models Interact actions always cost (1) AP.

(+1)Nimble

Actions

(2)Flurry

(1)Gifts of the Grave: This model may drop one Corpse Counter it is carrying up to 4" away.

Triggers

Ca (:crows:crows) Volatile [Rig Corpse]: Increase the by 2". Increase the by 2".

Ca(:crows:masks) Lead Paint [Vandalize]: Models failing the Duel gain 1 Poison Token.

Spells

(1)Rig Corpse

(CC:12:crows/ Rst:- / Rg: 4)

Target Corpse Counter gains "Rigged: 2. This Corpse Counter generates 2. Dg 3 when a model moves into the . This Effect lasts until the end of the Encounter or until this Corpse Counter is picked up. Remove the Corpse Counter from play if the Effect is triggered." Bone Thieves and models summoned into the do not trigger this Spell's effect.

(1)Vandalize

(CC: 14:crows / Rst: - / Rg: 4)

Target an Objective marker within range. Enemy models attempting to Interact with that Objective Marker must first win a Wp -> 8 Duel. If a model succeeds in the duel, that Object piece may not be targeted by this spell for the rest of the encounter. If this Spell is cast on an Objective Marker that is already under the effect of another Bone Thief's (1)Vandalize, increase the TN of the duel by +2. This Spell is only cumulative with (1)Vandalize cast by other Bone Thief models.

You cant drop corpse counters can you?

No sir.

- - - - -

If you do shackle it to a Mindless Zombie (Which you can do) it suffers 3 Wd if that model leaves base Contact, and has to suffer an additional Wd + spend its 2 general AP to get back into base contact with the MZ.

It's super immobile.

That's a considerable chunk of reading Sandwich. I gave it a quick read through and you have some interesting points. It's going to take some time for me to digest this but the first points that came into my mind where;

1. I'd actually consider Ramos the Technical Caster and Raspy the Heavy Hitter. Overall though, it's an interesting approximation of the roles each Master falls into but I don't think they can truely be categorised that simply. For instance Marcus should come under all three categories, which is why he's considered one of the "weakest" Masters (since he doesn't do any one thing as well as any other Master).

2. I've actually always thought of the Carrion Effigy as the one Doll who's much better in Resser crews than the Neverborn. It is the one Effigy I wouldn't consider buying for my Neverborn.

In any case, the above isn't really relevant to the arguement you're making. This however, is;

As above, I don't agree that the Masters can be categorised so easily into Heavy Hitter, Support and Technical. There is so much more to how they function, the least of which is their mobility, resiliance and reliance on synergies with other models.

BUT...

...I think you make a very good point about what Kirai's role as a Support Master did to the Resser faction in book 2. She needed spirits to support and with a few exceptions, the Book 1 Resser Masters want minions that are undead and preferably dropped corpse counters.

For the other factions, most of the new minions associated with their new Master were still valid options for the old Masters. Each faction also had some new models for the old Masters, but in the case of the Ressers those particular minions (Molly & totem, Guild Autopsies and Rogue Necros, right?) were perhaps a little underwhelming.

So pulling this together, the sub-par Book 2 minions together with Kirai's Spirits would have had the overall effect of putting the initial Resser Masters one book behind the other factions, in terms of the synergistic options they had available for building a crew.

So overall Sandwich, while I still believe that the Ressers are still a capable and competitive faction, I have to admit that you're probably on to something here...

You could be right about that, but I don't think Rasputina has any chance of standing alone against her opponents, whereas Ramos can pop out Spiders or Electrical creations and is quite tanky for some reason.

And Marcus could probably fit into any of the three categories, most masters could.

The best way to dictate which role they fill the most is to put them side by side with the other two, though.

Marcus NEEDS beasts, doesn't hit as hard as Raspy / Ramos, and can't cast all the mean nasties that Raspy can, so his overall best role is that of a support.

I won't argue with you over that point though, because I'm not that good of a Marcus player.

@Sandwich - I am still digesting your post, but will say it is well written. I have one question regarding your opinion on Kirai. Why do you consider Ikyrio separate from Kirai and not part of her? I would consider him part of her model design and the "heavy hitting" portion of that design based on the fact he can only be brought out with Kirai. When looked at in that light, wouldn't that make Kirai a dual Support/Heavy Hitter in your paradigm?

I consider the Ikiryo a seperate minion for 3 reasons.

1.) It takes resources to attain. Where if you take the Dreamer, you instantly have LCB, at no cost and with no choice.

2.) It has its own seperate Activation. Kirai and the Ikiryo have no way to Companion and both get full access to all of their AP.

3.) Losing it causes little to no actual harm to Kirai. While she will need to summon another Ikiryo eventually, and that'll cost 4 Wd, she doesn't really suffer if things get out of hand.

Ikiryo is a lot more like Nix than Kirai's LCB in that it is exclusive to her, has the limitations of a minion (No Soulstone use) and acts as an entirely seperate entity.

Much too powerful for 4 SS, which is something I say about the Death Marshals and this is better.

They're wholly immobile and will die quickly if they aren't attached to a Corpse Counter, which remains vulnerable.

They also drop nothing if they die and are very crow intensive.

What specifically do you find to be too powerful?

And I'm not refuting you, just getting an opinion.