Sandwich

Can you name one other scheme that forces you to take a certain model?

I agree with your argument in its basic form, and I do think that the CCK is a subpar model, but I don't think that's its too far off in having a Belle kill an enemy model afflicted with Belle Spells.

Especially because they're fairly core to Seamus (3 seperate Talents on his card directly affect Belles and nothing else) so to say that he has a unique Scheme that requires him to use Models that he can self-sufficiently (In most cases) work with, isn't too bad.

I frankly can't see any scenario where summoning an additional Belle into the fray would be a bad idea, nor would starting with one be outright detrimental in practically every strategy available.

But again, I can understand the desire to have no limits with how you build a crew.

But then again, what do I know.

And why am I even arguing this point?

No, in order to get full points I am forced to take a a specific model which is my major gripe.

When running a list with Seamus, regardless of the models you start with, what exactly are you doing with the Corpse Counters?

All he can summon are Dead Doxies and Rotten Belles, both of which are Belles.

Molly? The only non-Belle she can summon is the Crooligan.

And I sincerely doubt you're spamming those badboys.

I think that Scheme change is actually pretty good, to be honest.

I'd support a similar vein, but I'd like to keep emphasis on his downfalls.

For example,

His .50 Flintlock should still be once per turn, but with the massive damage output models are capable of, its damage should be drastically increased.

To something like 6/8/9.

I still agree with my Face of Death getting Anathema statement, but I believe his base Terrifying should be bumped to Terrifying->13.

This changes the focus of Face of Death from 4"-> Terrifying 14 to a an irresistible 4" Terrifying.

Makes it scarier.

I think the Necrotic Ministration buff will work fairly well, also.

- - - -

Other ideas that'd drastically improve the faction without changing any models within the faction.

* Make Terrifying affect everything but Constructs. Make Anathema give to Terrifying flips.

- This makes the Avatar of Dread a massive shift in power, while also redirecting some power back to models like The Hanged.

- This change will work to increase the feasibility of certain lists outside of Seamus.

* Make Last Rites an (All) Action.

- This removes a Hard Counter against the faction, without negative the power of the Action. Currently, outside of Kirai, any model with the ability to outright remove all Corpse Counters within 6" is game over for Nicodem, and absolutely shafts Seamus in certain lists where he needs to counter someone like Lady Justice by overwhelming her. But also gives Justice an option to defend herself from a horde if the need arises.

* Double or triple the amount of model types that Drop Corpse Counters.

- Spirits and Constructs have an excuse for not dropping Corpse Counters. Nothing else does.

I've been designing and testing custom models, and I've just gotten ahold of a pal to help me make real pretty pictures, and I DLed the Card Maker for Photoshop, and the only thing left is to print out the cards and paint up the proxy models.

To make it feel legitimate, I want the thickness of the cards to be right.

So,

Title.

You forgot the ubiquitous "He is only a problem in YOUR meta-game, we have no problem with him. We'd tell you the theory-faux to handle him, but we are pretty pressed for time and don't actually have a battle-report to link to."

This pretty much sums up your standard statement you'll hear when you claim there's an issue.

Trust me, in everything I've done (To date, I'm good at being right, so says the Erratas. ;D), this is the most blanket, unhelpful and useless statement anyone has ever made.

And it happens Every. Single. Time.

On the other side of that coin, there are a lot of incredibly finnicky models (See: Pandora) that a LOT of people will see as ridiculously overpowered, far too difficult to handle, and entirely unfun to play against, but she's not all that ridiculously broken when you sit down and dissect her and her crew, there are clear cut lynchpin models, etc, that make her far more manageable than she seems at first.

It's not avoidable. The fact that it happens rarely, doesn't make it avoidable. You're not making any sense here.

Also note that it is never 1/54 since your deck never has 54 cards in it.

It absolutely is avoidable if you don't arrogantly throw important models into the line of fire.

And excuse me, it's a 1/48, dearest apologies.

Or perhaps 1/47, if you have an Arcane resevoir.

(And I think Lilith can get a hand of 8.)

Ah, here you acknowledge that it is unavoidable. Cool.

Semantics make you correct, congratulations!

The precise wording of my statement immediately invalidates my entire point, though vastly supported by a majority of gamers and with subsequent spine betwixt its shoulders, it does fall brutally flat upon its chiseled face for I stated that the card actually does exist within a game, woe be I.

So it's a balancing mechanic? You're utterly contradicting what you said earlier.

By "Is Really Only" I mean that "The only possible way to Counter Hard to Wound 2 is by, in a 1/47 chance, flipping the Red Joker.

I see no interpretation of that statement as somehow even remotely implying that the overall power level of Hard to Wound is hard countered by the existence of the Red Joker.

But alas.

His powerful healing mechanic doesn't work in close combat with non-living, non-undead models.

Except that he's (+1)Fast and can blast models in Melee with a Ca 7 (1)Live For Pain 3 times in a row to heal for a minimum of 6 Wd in a single activation, or, more spiffy, get Lured away but a cutesy-pie Belle.

How many tournaments have you won?

A total of 5 confirmed.

Ah, OK, so it's again avoidable. Wonderful.

You're not making any sense!

How are you supposed to avoid it? By never getting hit? Good luck with that. And other than that, the basic nature of RJ is that it is indeed unavoidable. The fact that it only messes up every third or tenth or hundreth or whateverth game is beside the point.

So yeah, as you so nicely declared at the start, your argument indeed was a waste of time.

It's flattering that each time you attempt to debunk my statements all you ever do is resort to semantics and nitpicking.

I believe this is, over the course of my existence on these forums, your fifth time using the same hairsplitting as always to attempt to drive home a point that is unfortunately very, very dull.

But to specifically reply to your final statement.

If I, for only a moment in my brief capacity for intelligence, am able to remember that you fielded a model with the express purpose to maim any of my beloved ladies, or more importantly, Seamus, I will be more than able to ensure, due strictly to foresight, your ability to maim any high priority targets.

Almost all (I'm sure there's one or two non-ressers with Hard to Wound) crews that are afflicted by the disease that is spouted out to the forums, have powerful deniability, via disables (Lure, Paralyze), Regeneration (Self Healing, Decay) or replenishment (Summoning).

This means that ALL models affected by Hard To Wound are replaceable, (Except against crews with (0)Last Rites, but again, abilities like that are a focal point of my complaints.) or have enough tools available to them to negate the ultra-power of the Red Joker.

If you are unable to pick up and move on from a single flip of the Red Joker, you shouldn't be complaining about that mechanic, you should be working on your tactical thought-process because you are currently severely limited in your ability for foresight.

For models without Hard to Wound, and specifically in the sense of Competetive play, the Red Joker acts as a great balancer of sorts.

While I do believe that a player who is able to grasp hold of, and maintain a clear lead throughout most of the game will win regardless, I think that the random popping of a Joker (Red or Black) can sometimes steer the game in a direction besides a stalemate, which actually makes tournaments between equally skilled players a lot more dynamic than it would be if we simply withdrew the mechanic altogether from the game.

Although on the flip side of that, WH40k has the random factor of dice rolls and a LOT of people switched to Malifaux to get away from the randomness of it all, so I can see where their argument comes from.

---------- Post added at 12:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 AM ----------

Many people seem to think that the RJ thing is a legitimate drawback for the H2W. Another common thought is that RJ is fine since it happens so rarely. People only remember those momentous occasions when it killed something supremely important, but in reality it happens rarely, so it's OK.

The balance to Hard to Wound, for Ressers at least, is that all ressurrectionist models are specific niche, or high enough cost that they're allowed to be multi-purpose (Shikome).

You will NEVER take a Rotten Belle for anything other than a Lure-tank.

You will NEVER pick up a Punk Zombie for their ranged support.

But I'm sincerely doubtful that anyone has ever looked at Hard to Wound and said "Oh, minus flips? I guess the ONLY way to counter that is the Red Joker."

Both of those thoughts are utterly backwards.

You're right, that's why some 90% of the forum population believe the Red Joker is perfectly fine.

RJ being as rare as it is doesn't balance H2W meaningfully in a single game. Having a "balance" mechanism that kicks in only every third game is outright horrible. It means that the ability is overpowered in two games out of three and underpowered in one game of of three. You can't balance stuff over several games since people play against different opponents and all in all consider a single game as a complete experience (there's no campaign system in Malifaux, nor anything else that would suggest that you're supposed to be playing three games in a row or something).

Hence the reason Wyrd doesn't balance models around the Jokers.

They're isolated events, and are treated as such.

If RJ happened every game I probably would have less problem with it because then it would actually be something that can be anticipated and should be prepared for. But now it's rare enough to turn a game upside down every once in a while, which isn't something that you can reasonably prepare for.

Your statement contradicts itself.

You're saying that because its so rare, you don't account for it.

But because you don't account for it, you lose games.

Every decision I make in a game is made with the possibility of a joker in mind, and I have 0 issues with it.

And ask anyone, I play a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot of Resurrectionists.

This is not the mechanics fault, it's your own.

This argument is a waste of time.

If you lose the game based on a clutch flip with a 1/54 chance, you weren't playing well to begin with.

The Joker mechanic is unique, simplistic, and avoidable.

It works perfectly, is not out of place, and shows up when or where ever it so pleases.

Hard to Wound is one of the strongest mechanics in the game and is really only balanced out by that random chance of flipping a seriously damaging card.

The one model who is detrimentally f*cked by the Red Joker, Seamus, has Hard to Kill and a powerful heal mechanic to save him if you ever fall victim to the Red Joker.

Most of this complaining hoohaw is just theoryfaux and has no practical value in a tournament setting, period.

Competetive gamers are going to be able to easily account and prepare for the Joker flip, and casual players are going to burst into laughter when the Sword Vic charges Seamus and deals 14 damage, and then blenders his entire Belle armada into fabulous ribbons.

De-evolution imminent, so speaketh the Sandwich.

On the brighter side of things, Seamus' Avatar has attracted 2 new potential players in my region, as well as the fantastic news that we're getting a migratory flock to help pick Tacoma up off the ground.

So excited to have a big playgroup again.

...or during a game.

Well, yeah.

I suppose my point is, do you watch your opponents flips? when they say I need 5+ and a crow do you check thats what they turned? At what point do you think, hang on he seems to be getting everything he needs?

Do you trust their flips or do you watch?

You absolutely watch.

Make you sure you know their model cards.

It isn't cheating to scan LCB / Dreamer card before the game. [EDIT:] OR DURING.

>

Killjoy in a green-stuff tuxedo t-shirt and top hat for maximum class.

I laughed so hard at this and I really shouldn't have.

I'm not sure this was the right time to post this as the author(s) of the original thread are going to take it as far more offensive than you intended, or, if you did intend to offend, then I believe it will certainly be received as such.

That said, I'm absolutely here to stay.

With my annoying opinions and non-biased statements.

;D

I really hate to tell you your wrong (as you invented everything about playing Hamelin and without you I'd never have won the UK Masters with him) but Damage Reduction flips prevent wounds, not damage.

Also, we've always played it (including against Ratty) that you suffer the initial wounds first (as it says "suffers") and THEN you do the extra wound form the blight counter. Not fun for you if you have Hard to Kill

For the record, everything else in this thread is correct *wink*

I don't understand the negativity towards me, but okay.

My specific method statement was incorrect (Oh, semantics), but ultimately I'm still right, as well as the fact that you didn't disagree with what I said, you just reiterated it in a different manner.

If you do not remove any amount of incoming Dg/Wd, you suffer an additional Wd.

Therefore the only way to prevent the Blight counter Wd is by reducing the rest of the incoming damage to 0.

Isn't there sort of difference between simple "melee hammers" and Chompy Slingshot? Its not as much a matter of the melee bit as it is the fact that he is hella-fast melee and in her face in one turn from very far away?

I am not as familiar with post-bury errata chompy, but he can still motor, yes? Is she really that much faster than him?

Chompy is very fast, yes, but he's entirely unable to lock Kirai down.

Where the Dreamer can move something around 21-22" per turn, Kirai can just manipulate her entire crew to bear down onto him.

Not to mention the massive survivability that the Lost Love brings, and how much turning her into a Spirit augments her untouchability.

The only thing I have a problem with when facing lcb with kirai is his lack of living or spirit models. So im relying on my own models for my seshin. But even then into the spirit world is a huge leap to keep her away from lcb. Then ikiryo can move her as well if set up right, plus twin shikome preying on him is nice. There have been times where my two shikome drop both the dreamer and lcb in a round(as long as lcb was by himself when the dreamer popped out). Shikome are the bees knees imo.

Even without automatically gaining Prey when summoned with Kirai, they're still murdermachines.

Not to mention that Prey on the Dreamer negates his targeting shenanigans.

Also, Gaki can destroy LCB fairly quickly with relatively minor placement planning.

2gud

I really, really like this model concept.

I'll grab a few in my next guild game.

Very well made.

The Avatar of Entropy is aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamazing.

I don't know why Kirai is coming up so much. I'm a Neverborn player. When people take Kirai vs Chompy, I laugh. Yes, you may escape for a while... But Chompy gets +2 damage vs pitiful and helpless models (A big deal, even if she's spirit). Yes, she may have crazy movement tricks, but Chompy DOES still have a slingshot, it's just got a good bit less range.

Chompy with onslaught at +2 dg on Kirai will crap on your day, with flay and disembowel, if you're low on cards. I've never faced nicodem, but based on his style, I'd say go with him.

Maybe Seamus... But I wouldn't bank on it, honestly. He's hard to wound, but even hard to wound can't ignore triggers... So Chompy is likely to empty your hand and auto-kill you.

Maybe I'm biased because I've never lost to our local Kirai player? Who knows? Oh well! Hope it was useful!

If your Kirai player is ever getting caught, have him/her pop onto the forums and ask some of our experts on how to avoid that.

I've never in my life seen Chompy get ahold of me as Kirai, or as Kirai played by someone else.

she's just too fast and has too much mitigation to ever need to worry about melee hammers.

I'd love to see your face when you group gets a hold of the third book, my friend.

Specifically to your final question.

Blight Token: When a model with 1 or more Blight Tokens suffers Wd, it suffers 1 additional Wd.

In explanation,

Damage Reduction reduces incoming Dg, the remaing Dg of which is converted to Wd, which are then applied to the Model.

As such,

Malifaux Rat is affected by Nix's (0)Unconscious Behavior, and makes a melee Strike against Lady Justice, who has 1 Blight Token.

Lady Justice suffers 3 Dg from the Malifaux Rat.

Lady Just discards a Soul Stone on a Damage Mitigation Flip.

Lady Justice flips a 6, for a moderate Reduction.

-2 Dg is removed from the Total Dg suffered of 3 Dg.

Lady Justice has 1 Dg remaining, which is converted to 1 Wd.

Since Lady Justice suffered 1 Wd and has a Blight Token, Lady Justice suffers an additional Wd, for a total of 2 Wd dealt.

Well, Kirai shuts him down pretty hard.

If not Kirai, then Belles and the Dead Rider work great to spread out his crew so you aren't dealing with a single massive group of really angry, really mean models.

Combatwise,

Depending on what kind of crew your opponent builds usually, (You're going to just have to judge what kind of person they are), look into Taelor, who is more powerful against tanky-oriented crews, or Lazarus for anything else.

I was pretty surprised at Sandwich's "performance".

He is a much better writer than ad-lib speaker.

If I gauged that as a debate, I think that zephir won.

I did appreciate the retraction on "Dead Rider Grief". (Loves me my dead rider...)

I was wondering if zephir finds Nicodem so balanced, how did he place at Nova, Gencon or Adepticon or any other tournament of more than 8 or so players?

I ask that as a question, not as some sort of rhetorical attack. I am genuinely interested in hearing about the playstyles and crews of people that take masters that many of the rest of us struggle with and beat the same crews that we struggle against.

I *WANT* Nicodem to fare better. I do not WANT to be right that he needs more soulstones an extra walk inch and perhaps something like calmdowns suggestion that Decay loses the

So, the more I learn from better players, the happier I will be. But, in reading here for a long time and going to tournaments and just generally trying myself, I find that the talk of masters like Nicodem appears more theory than results...

Yeah, I wasn't really ready for the scope of the conversation.

Just wait til the next one. ;D

I have to ask because I've been trying for a while.

How do I get to this mysterious "picture of an old guy with a corpse at his feet"?

In your web browser, type in "Wyrd-games.net"

Click Forum

Scroll down to the bottom of the page.

On the left hand side, there'll be a scrolling flash animation.

Its the model after Nicodem's Avatar,

There's also a thread in the general section, I'll get you a link in just a sec

---------- Post added at 07:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 PM ----------

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?32790-More-New-Art

Zephir's got you covered there

You're.....

Amazing.

Balance is such a fickle thing.

Just as an aside note, I think there are ways outside of specific model tweaks that could balance a lot of the problems that I perceive.

For example, if I were given free reign to 'Fix' the Ressurectionists, I wouldn't necessarily pick a part every model and give them individual changes (Except the Crooligan. And the Guild Autopsy.)

Things I'd look into doing,

1.) Making everything but Constructs (And Undead ;D)susceptible to Terrifying. This would bolster the faction as a whole and make ALL of the Spirits (Who I have oft complained about) incredibly powerful choices, and negating the whole "Low Synergy hoohah."

A counter argument I can see is the buff this would give to Neverborn as well, meaning that any progress made would be irrelevant, but I don't think that's necessarily true either.

It'd make Shikome a very powerful model, on par Ryle in true power. (Wicked + Scary to practically everyone? Yuuuup!)

It'd also shift the focus of A.Seamus from Anathema to his Mark of Dread, which would frankly be a welcome change, as it'd drastically reduce the reliance players have on increasing his personal Terrifying -> #, or a very, very high relevence on proper placement.

2.) Make almost everything drop Corpse Counters.

It'd discourage this stupid "Kill-Dogs for 2 turns, then start playing the game" meta that causes a LOT of players to lose games because they need Corpse Counters, but they don't get them from anything but their own models, so they spend the first few turns stocking up, and the rest of the game trying to catch back up.

3.) Actually, if you did the two prior, McMourning wouldn't need any changes at all.

Not that he really does now.

As for the Guild Autopsy,

1.) I'd remove its Soul Stone cost entirely, make it exclusively a summon.

IF you expand the amount of models that drop Corpse Counters, you don't need to allow Nicodem to bolster its Cb, but if that isn't done, I'd like Nicodem to be able to Bolster them.

2.) Remove the Corpse Counter limitation on them. This way, if McMourning loses them, he's only out a single BPC which isn't all too detrimental, and Nicodem will have them far more available than before.

As for the Crooligan,

1.) That's just a whole lot of typy bits I'll do later when I have the card in front of me.

But to summary,

I think there might be more thematic mechanics that'll fix a broad number of perceived issues with a much lower amount of effort, instead of going in knee deep and tweaking each and every model to perform better under such circumstances.

Cos they're both rubbish with Marcus?

Anyway. I'll stop distracting. Marcus is under-rated.

Well that explains why I don't play Marcus.

I figured the Bury + Protect me duo was pretty rad.

I have no idea about Lawyers, but I've heard good things.

;D