Stryder

This is actually a tricky one to answer.

At the moment, I believe the answer is "nobody knows until Wyrd FAQ this".

At the point when you determine that the defending model has been officially 'killed', two things happen (in relation to this given situation):

1. A scheme marker may be placed

2. You may check for 'Dig Their Graves' scoring

Obviously one of these things needs to happen first, but which one? As far as I am aware there is nothing in the current rulebook that explains timing interaction relating to Abilities vs Schemes. If the ability is resolved first, then Dig Their Graves can be scored. If the scheme is resolved first, then it cannot.

Maybe someone else has better info. If not, we'll have to wait and see.

On 08/01/2017 at 5:33 AM, Lord Malkom said:

The game is "missing" some kind of Vampire. A Neverborn/Resser would fit that at best.

I actually created something like that way back in 1st edition. Managed to find it and updated it:

General storyline (finer details not worked out):

Charlotte Eville was a good person...once. Earthside, they called her 'vampire' and cast her out from society. When the breach was first opened, she jumped at the chance to go through. A new beginning, a new life, a new outlook. It was everything she wanted and more. She was respected instead of shunned for her abilities, and granted a plentiful supply of donated blood to feed upon.

When the incident that closed the breach happened, she somehow managed to survive the massacre. However, upon returning to and exploring the streets of Malifaux, she couldn't find a single living soul. Within a few days, she began to grow hungry, and realised that if she wanted to survive, there was only one option.

Feed on the natives.

The blood was foul-tasting but filling enough, but over time it began to...twist her. She began to resent the living, then to hate them. The Natives of the land came to know of her existence, and took to hiding themselves at night in fear of her. Eventually, her negative emotions took over, manifesting themselves in nearby creatures, turning them into manifestations of her twisted mind.

Upon the re-opening of the breach, Charlotte, devoid of all that made her who she was before, had only one thing on her mind...feeding time.

Charlotte Eville

Master, Undead - SS Cache: 2 - (30mm base)

Df: 6, Wp: 8, Wd: 9, Wk: 6, Cg: 8, Ht: 2

Abilities

Drain Life: After killing a model with an Ml action, this model makes a 2/3/4 Healing flip.

Impossible to Wound +1: Damage flips against this model suffer -. Damage fllips against this model may not be cheated.

Red Fever: This model suffers 1 damage which may not be reduced or prevented at the end of its activation, unless it killed another model during its activation.

Terrifying (Neverborn) 12: Enemy Neverborn models must pass a TN 12 Horror Duel to end a Walk or Charge Action within this models engagement range, or target this model with an action.

Attack Actions:

(1) Eternal Agony (Ml 7Crow / Rst: Df / Rg: claw2) Target suffers 2/4/6 damage that cannot be reduced

Trigger: Crow/Crow Drain Essence: This models Drain Life healing flip recieves a +.

(1) Tear Soul (Ml: 5Crow / Rst: Wp / Rg: claw2) Target enemy suffers 1/2/4 damage. If target is killed by this action, summon 1 Seishin into base contact with target model before it is removed from play. Then, this model suffers 1 damage which cannot be reduced or prevented whether this attack was successful or not.

Trigger: Crow/Crow Drain Essence: This model’s Drain Life healing flip receives a +.

Tactical Actions:

(1) Nightmares Made Real: (Ca 7c / TN: 16c / Rst: - / Rg: 6) Target any other friendly model without a Manifestation upgrade attached. Attatch 1 upgrade with the Manifestation restriction to the target model, ignoring all restrictions for attatching upgrades at the start of the game. Then, this model suffers 1 damage which may not be reduced or prevented

(0) Unleash the Swarm (Ca 7Crow / TN: 12Crow/Crow / Rst: - / Rg: 6) Summon 1 Night Terror within range and LoS, and reduce it's wounds to 0 (ignoring Hard to Kill). This model may then take up to 2 damage which cannot be reduced or prevented to heal the summoned model 2wd per damage taken.

Upgrades:

Cost 2: One with the Shadows

This model gains the following Tactical Action:

(1) Dissipate (Ca 6c / TN: 15cm / Rst: - / Rg: C) This model suffers 1 damage which may not be reduced or prevented. Place a 30mm marker in base contact with this model then Bury it. This model returns to play anywhere within 1” of this marker at the end of the turn.

Cost 1: Blademaster

This model gains the following Stat trigger:

Df (m) Parry: After succeeding, the attacking models activation ends immediately.

Cost 1: Nocturnal Servants

This model gains the following Tactical Action:

(1) Made Flesh: Until the end of the turn, all Night Terror models within (Aura)6 lose the Insignificant and Incorporeal abilities.

Cost 1: Spite

This model gains the following Ability:

Spiteful Curse: Whenever this model receives a condition from an enemy model, It may suffer 1 Wd to apply the same condition to that model.

Restrictions: Manifestation, Rare 1.

Cost 1: Malevolence

This model gains the following Ability:

Malevolent Curse: Whenever this model takes damage from an enemy models attack action, the attacking model suffers 1 damage that cannot be reduced.

Restrictions: Manifestation, Rare 1.

Cost 1: Malice

This model gains the following Ability:

Malicious Curse: Enemy models within (Aura)6 of this model must discard a card when declaring an attack action, or the action suffers a - flip.

Restrictions: Manifestation, Rare 1.

Cost 1: Hatred

This model gains the following Ability:

Abhorrence: Attack actions made by this model gain a + flip.

Restrictions: Manifestation, Rare 1.

Probably needs more work, but meh. Rate the concept, not the execution!

4 hours ago, Seryjniak said:

Yup you do that - it will give you time to check how tournament scores look in USA - I think top neverborn player is around 20 place ? In UK it is different story but one can argue that mr Elwood would win even with Lucius and half a gremlin.

You have no idea how hard that made me laugh....

After reading through all of the above, I have 2 things to say:

1. All neverborn players posting here: Shut up. Everyone else put up with Nekima being tangled/graves'd into them and eating their crews key pieces for 2 YEARS. You can put up with Yasanori and see how it feels. (a classic case of 'oh no, power creep has finally gone into another faction and we don't have the most OP stuff anymore!')

2. All other faction players posting here: Shut Up! You're making fools of yourselves.

And with that, I'm gonna shut up now. Have a nice day.

Left field...

Okay, how about Lenny in drag...called Mr. Point (think 'sounds like').

That would be great, thanks. Will get things organised and be in touch.

Would there be anyone willing to give me a lift there and back? I live just off the A1, junction 48. PM me for more details.

Hmmm...the main dangers there are pretty apparent. Triggers like that would have to do something really minor (Like maybe push the target 1" to represent them 'dodging', which could still be potentially game-winning, unless the opponent always makes the push even if you are attacking your own model), or never be built in, and would also have to be on models that can't be spammed by summoning etc. to avoid people relying on them. An 'after failing' trigger should be considered a nice mini-bonus rather than a viable means of winning, or at least getting one over on your opponent. There are already plenty of other super-tricky ways to do that anyway. Trust me, I found plenty. The only limit is your own ingenuity.

One or two Torikage with that upgrade can be handy. If you take Scout, Oathkeeper and Scramble on Misaki she can be in your opponent's deployment zone turn 1 (can move up to 30", potentially more with a charge and 2 pushes), and dropping two Torikage can help you get ahead on Stake a Claim, or on certain schemes. But if you just want something to grab schemes and nothing else, an Oiran is 1 point cheaper. Just be sure you can keep it alive until its done its job.

I wouldn't bother with Disguise as she doesn't really need it, take Scramble instead (note that both are limited). Considering that you then have a 2" Ml range with a 4" push and Scramble/Oathkeeper, she should be out of charge range anyway most of the time. Use her as a really fast, annoying fly with teeth rather than a carve-yer-face model and she will perform extremely well.

They have one less wound, too. But compare it to a Guardian if you feel you must. Same applies.

On 5/17/2016 at 2:49 PM, katadder said:

but she is more of a killy master than schemey one.

You got that the round way wrong. I would say Misaki is all about objective grabbing. Built in push trigger on her Ml7 attack and good movement with access to Oathkeeper and Scout (which allows her to charge through a wall once per game) lets her disengage and disappear to score points whenever she damn well pleases. This crew can accomplish multiple schemes very quickly, leaving you free to concentrate on scoring strat alone by turn 3-4, or messing with your opponent. She is very scheme-pool dependant (you want ones that you can score quick rather than turn-based), though can compete in any strat if that pool is right.

So...you're saying defensive abilities do make a difference?

Try looking at it another way...

What's harder to kill - a December Acolyte or an Illuminated?

Now ask yourself...Why?

13 hours ago, Confused1 said:

Hi, I'm really not understanding how many of you ranked Resurrectionists. Having played them so much at this point, I'm really surprised at a lot of the common trends in how everyone ranked them, because it doesn't resemble what I expected at all. I was hoping some of you, particularly tournament Ressurectionist players like Stryder, could please explain to me how you evaluated these. I've read the thread about how much terrain, I'm up to date with the latest FAQs and Errata, I understand how close together tiers are, and I'm judging based on how well they deal with GG 2016 Schemes and Strategies against all 7 factions assuming statistically average fate decks. The Ressur tier list arrangements were just so bewildering to me that I registered to ask what's up.

Fine...this is how I would rate all resser masters as a list with reasons:

1. Nicodem - The trick to using Nicodem properly is easy. Just utilise whichever ability you need at that moment. The biggest mistake I see Nico players making is summoning what they can when they can, instead of summoning what they need when they need and using his other abilities as required. The flexibility to attack, defend or score and switch from one to the other instantly is all there with Nico, it's up to the player to use it all properly. I would go so far as to say that Nico is one of the top 5 masters in the game simply because of his flexibility, though his abilities favour a more defensive and tanky playstyle.

2. Molly (Horror) - Plays fairly similar to Nico, but replaces the defensive capabilities with Black Blood which is more of a deterrent. Slightly more focused on aggression than Nicodem as you drop summons in the thick of things. I would NEVER take the over-costed dead weight Sybelle with her (or any other master) over a Dead Doxy as Sybelle has to be at one end of the push, while the Doxy can be far away scoring you points while increasing your mobility. But why only Horror Molly? Simple. If you want to play Spirits, take Kirai instead. Speaking of which...

3. Kirai - More mobile than the other two but with a more fragile crew, Kirai is more focused on scoring points, but less focused on defense and attack. Resource management is a big skill in this game, and none more so than with this master. When played well, She's very good. Make a mistake, and your opponent will quickly gain the upper hand.

4. Seamus - For those games where the schemes will decide the outcome. You can reliably pin 6 points on Seamus and he'll usually get all of them with little to no support from his crew, leaving them free to contest the strategy and deny opposing schemes. A slightly unorthodox playstyle, which to be honest suits Seamus perfectly.

5. Yan Lo - Like Seamus in reverse, Yan Lo is for denying strategy points with his easy access to pushes, placement effects and defensive abilities. Useful a lot less often, but still has his place in a competitive environment.

6. Molly (Spirit) - If you want to play spirits, take Kirai.

7. McMourning - The problem with McMourning is that he doesn't 'fit' with the general resser theme of enemy manipulation. Sure, dumping poison on things can make them run away from him, but I once got him from one side of the field to the other in a single turn to expunge a Silurid which would have scored my opponent a winning Breakthrough point, so running from him is very hard. He's easier to learn and use than the other resser masters, but not all that effective. Too much focus on an expunge setup can be detrimental to your score, and using him as bait will only work for so long.

8. Tara - Not a bad master by any means, despite being at the bottom of the list. Like McMourning, she needs a decent amount of setup, but is less free with how you can go about that due to her own restrictions.

Now excuse me while I go put some earplugs in while you all ragehate etc...

Don't forget it also depends on what a master is capable of. Von Schill is a perfect example of a solid master with little use. If you want to hit things, take Viks. If you want control, take Jack. If you want to move, take Misaki. If you want to tank, take Levi. If you want to out-activate, take Hamelin. What does that leave? A Jack-of-all trades? Hamelin or Jack himself can do that better, too.

Speaking in terms of the Meta (a term I use with much trepidation, because as far as I'm concerned the 'current meta' should largely be ignored and you should use what you are comfortable using and concentrate on getting the most out of that instead of using what everyone else tells you to, failing spectacularly and then whining about it to everyone on forum sites), remember that it is something like a big game of Rock-Paper-Scissors. It's constantly changing into something else. The masters I listed as competitive have the flexibility and capability to adapt to the Meta as it shifts, as well as being able to adapt and change strategy/tactics in game as the situation changes, thus making them more sensible choices.

Just need to point out - I am not Blutak. I am the previous Master, not the current one.

Also, I regularly play against MythicFOX, and have met InsidiouslyMad in many torunaments, both of them extremely good Arcanist players. I also dabble in them myself. I seriously doubt you could change my views on Feng or Kaeris. Even the others listed above don't think much of them.

While it's true that the two guild Mc's can be used in a similar fashion, McMourning offers a less card-intensive and more slow & steady approach than McCabe's lightning speed. That's all down to personal preference and playstyle.

And why choose Zoraida or Tara when you can have any of the others? Uncompetitive by default.

Hmm...interesting. I have thought about this before, but in a slightly different way.

Three tiers:

 - Competitive (Often used in Tournaments, high reliability/flexibility, can accomplish various strat/scheme pools, etc)

 - Playable (Can be useful in certain strat/scheme pools, generally good)

 - Uncompetitive (Generally not used much at all)

My thoughts:

Guild:

Competitive - McCabe, McMourning

Playable - Perdita, Sonnia, Hoffman (borderline uncompetitive)

Uncompetitive - Lady J, Lucius

Arcanists:

Competitive - Marcus, Rasputina, Colette, Ramos

Playable - Kaeris

Uncompetitive - Mei Feng, Ironsides

Ressers:

Competitive - Nicodem, Molly, Kirai, Seamus

Playable - McMourning, Yan-Lo (Borderline Competitive), Tara

Uncompetitive - None

Neverborn:

Competitive - Dreamer, Pandorra, Collodi, Lynch

Playable - Lillith (Borderline Competitive)

Uncompetitive - Lucius, Zoraida

Outcast:

Competitive - Levi, Jack, Hamelin

Playable - Von Schill, Misaki, Viktoria (Borderline Competitive)

Uncompetitive - Tara

Thunders:

Competitive - Shenlong, McCabe, Lynch

Playable - Yan-Lo (Borderline Competitive), Misaki

Uncompetitive - Brewmaster, Mei Feng

Gremlins:

Competitive - Wong, Ulix, Somer, Ophelia

Playable - Mah, Zoraida, Brewmaster

Uncompetitive - None

Let the rage begin!

14 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I feel that Ressers don't really need a beatstick of that price-range for anything.

Usually you are correct, but they can come in handy sometimes as threat pieces.

4 hours ago, OldManMyke said:

I think that the Valedictorian might have deserved a mention in this role as well

Note the term 'non-soulstone using.'

1 hour ago, Kogan Style said:

For the 10ss bracket I prefer the Emissary, you can get potential minimum 12 damage out in one turn using Rot 'n' Rend with the right trigger ( - Word of the Emissary x 2 @ min. damage 3) and still throw up some shards to block LoS for retaliation/aura's etc.. while boosting the effectiveness of other models (+1Wk, Carrion Conflux giving other models  to ALL attack duels)

 

Which brings me onto my final point/question: Stryder do you feel Izamu's ability to cycle cards via his trigger and the native  to damage is not a worthwhile point in his favour?

On the Emissary: I have not had much play experience to form a proper opinion on that yet! Give me a couple of months.

As for the other: Card cycling? Only if your cheating weak cards and drawing higher. What if you naturally flip moderate or severe? Will you cheat your damage lower for the chance of maybe drawing a higher card?

58 minutes ago, Adran said:

If I'm going to add the Grave spirit, then The necromancy wins out.

Armour +2 impossible to wound beats armour +4 all the time.

Especially against the multitude of things in the game that ignore armour or cannot have their damage reduced.

32 minutes ago, Munindk said:

Rotten Bells luring enemy models into Izamu with Unnerving aura, and possibly backed by the Graveyard Spirit, looks good on paper.

Luring them into the Rogue is just as nice as he gets to Smell Fear.

Damn half-hour library times...

7 minutes ago, Tayne said:

I think your opening statement needs some more work. Namely, it needs Kirai. She has support tricks, namely movement and healing, that go a long way to resolving the issues you have stated with Izamu and you do the model a disservice by not mentioning them. Yes, he is slow but Kirai can swirl him 24" across the board if she wishes (and has set it up correctly, of course).

Note the part where I said 'he requires a huge amount of support just to function properly'. Note that this post also refers specifically to getting people to consider other options that just using him as a go-to beatstick. Kirai has many other, summonable options available to her.

10 minutes ago, BigHammer said:

I'm not sure that comparing the Rider to either the Rogue or Izamu is completely fair.

The Rider will get his own post later. There's far too much potential in him to cover here.

As for the rest of your comments: Those opposing models that do weak 3 damage can focus and do severe 6 in a lot of cases. ITW helps to maintain a negative damage flip and prevents cheating. While Armour 2 is better than any amount of HTW, ITW comes closer to being it's equal, but is harder to get around. Positive damage flips can't be counted as getting around it as they can also be used to deal more damage to armoured things.

The offensive output: Remember that the Rogue can shoot as it moves forwards. Izamu can not. Without support, Izamu can be played around, meaning you never get a good chance to bring all that power to bear. At least the Rogue has a good ranged attack, making it harder to 'dodge'.

Synergy: I mentioned the Yan Lo synergy in the original post. It's the best use for Izamu, and certainly worth doing. The Kirai synergy is a lot less effective, as Kirai needs to move and heal him, while keeping the rest of her crew propped up at the same time. You also need something to swirl him to. A big investment which could result in a small payoff.

Nicodem can sacrifice corpses to increase his CA by +1 for each corpse at the start of his activation. Unlike Kirai, there is no limit and it lasts for his full activation. Therefore, Nicodem has a potentially unlimited CA and can summon a Hanged by discarding a Soulstone and flipping a Black Joker (so long as an entire army died around him recently...try against Hamelin)

I can confirm my attendance. Looking forward to it again.

You take the action again at the same target (whichever was chosen). But as the target (in either case) is engaged, you will need to randomise again.

Feel free to ask me questions at the GT. It'd be nice to see some more resser players. We seem to be a dying breed...