Attila

Did someone lose some friends by playing Somer with Lenny and the pigapult?

In detail:

- do it like dis! with discarded tome

- whacked Piglet onto pigapult

- sustained pigapult fire with Sh6

Jet, I haven't much M2E experience and I'm wondering if that isn't too cheesy for a friendly tourney...

What do you think about it? O:-)

Thanks for your laughing answer but I fear you have completely misunderstood the issue. (Playing with 3 Neverborn masters I can imagine their strengths.)

Many of the posters here suggest that Gremlins are the best of the best. Broken, ubercompetitive, whatever. I can even accept that but without enough experience I have doubts and so I asked a simple question aimed to top quality Gremlin players. How do you deal with LCB that drops into your DZ in turn 1 and eats the most important minion faces? The answer was quite generic and that's why I asked for details.

Point a) was there to understand that coming up with a good defence against the Dreamer couldn't be made with a list that doesn't or hardly work against other Neverborn crews. Since you don't know whether your opponent brings Lilith, Pandy or the Dreamer, you would be in a serious disadvantage in a tournament if you bring a wrong counter list. And that is not what I call competitive play.

For point : besides that I wasn't even talking about Somer... How many Gremlins do you bring to ensure this? How does your list look like? Which models are safe from LCB in your setup? Please note that in this case you can't rely on summoned models since LCB could win the initiative and be in your DZ during the first activation chain and ruin your day badly.

Ahh... Ok... now I understand

I would never ever say that Gremlins are the best of the best. Whenever I have to face the Neverborn (and some other masters) on a tournament with a fixed crew, I'm hoping for an easy strategy-flip, praying for a lot of dumb luck and for an opponent, who doesn't really know what he's doing OR what I'm doing(*). That's my only chance for a draw or maybe a victory.

*: I usually figure it out in turn one. If my opponent asks me, why I'm passing twice in defensive stance with a Bayou Gremlin (suffering one wound) and later striking on it with Somer... I know that I'll have an easy game *LOL*

On the other hand some masters can't prohibt Gremlins to deliver a message, plant the evidence or destroy the evidence in turn one.

In my opinion Gremlins are strong in achieving most strategies, but weak in fighting most masters (with a fixed crew).

a) competitive against every possible Neverborn Master/Henchman and

hahaha - there isn't one answer to your question. Lilith, Zoraida, Pandora, Dreamer and Collodi have all different nasty tricks and different defense mechanics. Against some of them terrain is your friend, against others terrain is your enemy. I think they all don't like being out-activated and playing without control cards ("all done" needs a special suit).

You should better ask yourself how to get victory points ASAP with your Gremlins.

A general tipp: If your friend's playing Neverborn, switch crews in order to understand the mechanics of the his masters.

can block LCB out the way you suggest.

For example: If LCB needs more than 2 AP to cut through summoned Bayous in order to reach Somer, Somer should be safe...

I just wonder how do you defend vs LCB that drops into your DZ in turn 1, kills lets say the two most important support minions and goes back to the other end of the table?

Hide the LCB-model, while the Dreamer player looks away *wink*

When dealing with object/high armour. The main bit that catches my eye, is the line.. to a minimum of 1, so don't ask yourself how to kill the pigapult in one hit, rather work out how to get 5..

In the scenario your asking me for, a wicked doll is capable of doing the damage...

(0) to collodi (who if he wishes, can be pretty much anywhere on the board)

(2) flurry

Then either Poisen can finish it off or if you can prep it with melee expert and fast.

Paired vs def 1, but as i said previously..

Theoryfaux is flipping high again.

End of the day, I'm very much of the oppinion.. L2P, its not an insult, its constructive. Let's face it, if you havnt done anything before, mastering it is a no go without practice..

Who do you address with "learn to play"?

I'd recommend everyone who can reach the Gremlins base and inflict 5 attacks in one activation on a pigapult should better attack (and kill) Somer or the REAL key models in a Gremlin's crew, which are often standing next to it. Depends on situation, of cause.

I agree with Spiku and Guy in Suit. Hunting a pigapult isn't a good idea in general. Better use it's low Df for some easy straight flips in order to place blasts on the Gremlins hiding behind it*. If there's nothing left to launch, a pigapult is nothing else then terrain.

*: @Guy in Suit - Rasputina did almost the same to me once. She was quite happy about the synergy effect of object 5 and overpower... lol

Pigapults can be killed in 1-2 activations if you know what your doing .

I just remember my pigapult being in melee. My opponent charged, hit and cheated severe damage. I said thanks for wasting your high card. Due to object 5 it took only two wounds. Melee expert, hit, only one wound. I moved two Gremlins into 1", healing flip (just to bother him) and launched them for "stake a claim". I said thanks for not charging my last two significant models, which were the only chance to get those two victory points.

What's the moral of the story?

I go, you go. Means: You waste one activation for a few wounds, I just heal them back with one action. You waste your second activation, I just heal again.

Again theoryfaux seems to be flipping high..

Yepp. Business as usual *grin*

This is not his only "effective objective achiever" it is his easiest method (Pig Ladders and Pig Boomerangs are just as effective though require much more planning and resources).

Maybe I'd better write: high achiever and cost-effective. English isn't my native language.

Sure, there're hundreds of ways to deliver messages (emails, homing pigeons,...), but none of it for a (1) action of a 4 soulstone minion. That's most cost-effective, isn't it?

Additionally the pigapult is one solution for most strategies and schemes.

Sort of like how the Flying Pigs talent works (just applied to every model that takes the ride). What an elegant solution that would be, remove Launch'n and reword Flying Pigs to apply to everyone Ht 1 model that takes the ride (simple and done).

I was thinking of replacing the action "(1) Launchin..." to "(all) Launchin...".

Your idea wouldn't solve last turn breakthroughs with four Bayous (at least one will survive...) nor launching many Bayous waiting for initiative to deliver their message.

Just to get my points across

EDIT:

It is also remarkably easy to destroy (ht3 and a love of reckless. Not to mention poison...).

Excuse me?! Object 5, 5 Wds, standing behind terrain and almost everyone in your crew can repair it with a (1) action?

I'd say it is remarkably impossible to destroy

Anything thrown by a Pigapult should gain Insignificant, really.

Also, Bayou Gremlins should not be significant.

THAT wouldn't solve the problem of balancing the pigapult. IMO there are other minions and masters who should gain insignificant first!!!

I agree that non-soulstone models fired by the pigapult should gain insignificant until next draw phase

Sounds better. Or gain paralysed. But even then "deliver a message" isn't defendable, cause not every master could kill three Gremlins in one activation after winning initiative. Or kill six Bayou Gremlins, if Somer has two pigapults....

Frankly, I'd talk about some Neverborn changes first, before drawing off Somer's one and only effective objective achiever!

EDIT: IMO Launchin should be an (all) action. Ophelia could still deliver the message, other Gremlins could die from that action, making last turn stunts for victory points not reliable. That would also prohibit the nasty "launch Bayou and shoot twice on it for some unresistable Blasts" trick.

People would throw their arms up in despair when I flipped Deliver a Message.

+ Line in the sand (you already mentioned that)

+ Claim Jump (turn 6 launch)

+ Destroy the evidence

+ Turf War, Reconnoiter (summon three Bayous each turn and launch them everywhere on the opponent's half or the table quarters)

+ Treasure Hunt (your treasure should be in your deployment zone in the end of turn one)

+ Plant Evidence

+ playing against supply wagon (out-activate your opponent and block his wagon with your little ones)

+ ...

and some schemes:

+ breakthrough

+ grudge (launch Ophelia onto your target, use a soulstone for defence flip if neccessary)

+ steal relic (kill your opponent's hand and launch 3 bayous at him = possilbly 9 interact actions to defend)

+ stake a claim (turn 6 launch)

+ playing against hold out (turn 6 launch)

+ ...

All in all you get 8+ VP for 4 soulstones

It really depends what you're playing against how to use his avatar. Against a crew with lots of Companion effects, you want to keep him back, or only bring him out when there's no danger of more than 2 models attacking him (I think that 3 minions can take him down barring soulstone use). Against a "normal" crew, unless you put him in range of a heavy hitter that can kill him in one activation, Som'er can take one, maybe two rounds of attacks between HTW and Armor, and then you can pull him back with one of your support models, meaning you can use him as a attacker.

As for attacking, I find charging in, triggering "Atta Girl" once or twice, then using Reckless to cast Swamp Gas is pretty effective.

I'd always assume that the opponent's crew has a heavy hitter waiting for Som'er to come close. Or maybe a lure or slingshot-trick. Or the opposing master himself. Therefore I think Avatar Somer really needs an exit-strategy, if he's attacking hostile lines (on his own).

In regards to Omenbringer's post:

Playing only two mosquitoes for a 7" Somer-Boomerang is not enough. I faced Ramos-Avatar (big thread-range via leap + charge + melee expert = dead Somer), Lilith with the twins (big thread-range via transpositon and companion = dead Somer) and Victorias (big thread-range via Sisters in Spirit = dead Somer). As I said before, I'd prefer a save exit-strategy, especially facing crews like this (link).

I'd say Ophelia is the best option for a Gremlin gunline. She can shoot masters, shoot guys in cover, face Killjoy in melee, has great (0) actions and awesome abilities. If I'd the choise between her and four Bayou Gremlins, I'd definitely take Ophelia. Remember, there are a lot of situations in Malifaux, when the mouse has to hork the elefant down in one activation.

A lot of 8+ for Sooey via Skeeters (or cards to cheat the charge, if the mosquito misscasted Sooey),

Remember that you dont need to successfully cast Sooey! for it to push the pigs their Cg (it does this even when it fails), the only thing that needs to be done if unsuccessfully cast is to cheat down the resulting attack flips on the skeeter that is being attacked (Gremlins are the only crew where Low cards benefit as much as high cards in the control hand).

I did remember I just wanted to say: If you don't have cards left on your hand, you can't cheat... Good old Somer thinks of himself first when using rare control cards.

Avatar Some'r wasn't really designed to benefit a straight gunline much (especially for a typical game of between 25-35 SS), he was designed for a Pig list that can transition into a gunline in game (after Some'r has had time to bolster the line). With this in mind his best builds will favor pigs or a fairly balanced crew (Ophelia only detracts from this because of her points cost and SS addicition).

I understand that you like your piglets, but in most strategies you can't use them to achieve victory points. I like the idea of a Somer crew, which can face almost all opposing masters and handle all strategies, without hiding in a corner, launching Gremlins onto objectives, or killing the opponent's hand. I like the mobility of an Ophelia lead crew and I'd like to add some Wp-Buffs or other gimmicks. Adding Avatar Somer to Ophelia's crew costs 16 Soulstones and I still didn't find out the _big_ benefit.

As I wrote earlier, a only-Somer-Boomerang with support of Ophelia, four skeeters, Whisperer and Taxidermist didn't work as I'd liked it. Somer took too much damage, dealt too few damage and hardly summoned piglets/gremlins.

Yesterday I played Som'er and Peaches for the first time at a small tourney with my friends.

I tried out the Som'er-Slingshot via four mosquitoes (2x Sooey to push him to the enemy and 2x Sooey to push him back), a Hog Whisperer for reactivate and flight, Ophelia for some more damage or mobility, and some minions to out-activate the opponent. I'd say he's not easy to play, cause his stats are only average. Cb 5-6 and Df 4 with 10 Wds is crappy for someone who wants to be in melee. All in all I burned a lot of soulstones (8 for Skeeters, 5 for Whisperer, 6 Cache = 21!!! Soulstones) for very few damage. Som'er Avatar isn't like the Dreamer...

*wink*

And I found out you can't have all the cards you need. A lot of 8+ for Sooey via Skeeters (or cards to cheat the charge, if the mosquito misscasted Sooey), 8+ for the Whisperer, 4 cards for "Atta Girl!", cards for saving a mosquito,... to sum up: a lot of dumb luck, cause you can't cheat what you need to cheat!

)

Therefore I believe it's better to use Som'er Avatar ONLY as support, keeping him behind his gunline, buffing his crew and saving all soulstones for Ophelia. He should only charge if he had to do.

What do you think?

THX for this great thread. I'm going to run Som'er and Peaches tomorrow for a few games.

Another nice trick, I don't know if it has been mentioned before:

For example Convict Gunslinger shoots on Som'er, probably with Hair Trigger and Rapid Fire. Cheat a Crow for the first defense flip, take damage and summon a Bayou Gremlin into melee with the Gunslinger. This way he can't continue shooting on Som'er.

Atilla; to answer your question on pigapult with Pere:

Hi Spiku,

I usually play tournaments with fixed lists and tried out some Ophelia- and Som'er-crews in the past. That's the reason why I avoid too risky one-trick-pony tactics (i.e. Pere with pigapult). But I agree with most of your points.

Usually I play a 35SS Scraps Ophelia with Rami, Raphael, Pere, Francois, Slop Hauler and 5 Bayou Gremlins (or Young LaCroix). With this crew I try to out-activate the opponent (works well with 11 models) and to isolate some of his key-models. Because of Pere the opponent doesn't keep his models together and therefore it's quite easy to take one or two models out only with Ophelia and Rami (each turn!). All in all a back-breaking guerilla tactic.

If the opponent keeps his models together, I do the Pere-slingshot. Remember, the opponent has to move closer to the Gremlins in order to achieve his victory points or to stop Rami shooting. Because of terrain you can foresee where your opponents' minions have to move and where they unavoidably squeeze. Pere just have to wait there (and take cover!) for the right moment. In my opinion terrain is a gremlin's friend, not a source of irritation.

On the last tournament I tried out two 35SS Scrap Som'er Pigapult lists. First list with Somer, Ophelia, Rami, Slop Hauler, Mosquitos and Bayou Gremlins - that's awesome. You have a lot of options to fullfill your strategies and schemes. The pigapult doesn't need to shoot, it just launches in the right moment and scares the opponent so that he plays hastily and blindfolded.

The second list with Somer, two Pigapults, Taxidermist, Slop Hauler, Mosquitos and Bayou Gremlins, but I couldn't make it work well. You have one big shooting turn and that's all. My opponents sprend their models and let them rush up to Som'er's artillery emplacement. No chance for poor Som'er.

Therefore I totally agree with this point:

Pigapult for me is best in an Ophelia AND Som'er crew

Pere is great. Start with Ophelia: companion, walk, "Oooo! A girl!" for 8" push. Then pere for double-walk and Oooopsie with reckless. After that Rami could well shoot pere for the second pulse. All in all two pulses with 18" threat range. Why do you need the pigapult for pere???

In my opinion:

Pigapult+Somer=GREAT!!!

(cause of unlimited objective grabbers and unlimited ammo)

Pigapult+Ophelia=Okay - depends on strategy/scheme

(cause objective grabbers are limited and providing ammo is difficult)

Ophelia can give Francois the auto-hair-trigger so that he won't stop shooting. That's not bad. And he isn't afraid of melees.

Raphael can deliver a message easily. Shoot at him a few times and inflict 4 Wds, "Ooo! A Girl", wade out, reckless and 2 AP for the message (18" threat range). Great movement, bad shooting attack.

Rami is great and very easy to play. "Oooo! A Girl" for position and three shoots with Cb7 should kill almost everything. If not, take the auto-dumb-luck-trigger

I like the Slop Hauler and some Bayou Gremlins in my Ophelia Crews. The crew is great for out-activating your opponent, treasure etc, deliver a message... but has no chance against willpower-crews (Pandora) and bully-hamelin.

Sorry 4 resurrecting this topic

Following situation

Turn 1

(a) Canine activates, 2x pass

( Nurse activates, casts painkillers on Canine

© Sebastian activates, strikes 3x on Canine for some bodyparts

(d) McM activates, casts and strikes on Canine for some bodyparts

Does the Canine have 1 Wd or 0 Wd left (cause of painkillers)?

(e) If 0 Wds: Nurse2 activates, heals Canine

Is the effect of painkillers removed in the resolve effects step

so that the Canine won't die in his next activation in turn 2?

the alpha stank is getting your skeeters within 3 inches of a particularly hard to kill modle and getting off a number of pull my fingers resulting in up to 12 points of unresistable damage.

12 points of damage? Totems can cast magical extension only once a turn and are in danger of killing themselves, because they aren't Gremlins anymore...

Or did you mean Somer activating with all of his four skeeters together for pull my finger (Somer: move + Pull my finger twice; each Skeeter: move + Pull my finger)?

Without the Skeeters lining up the Pig Charges for the Pigs you are really not utilizing the Pig Boomerang tactic to full effect (since they are the model that allows you to really control the otherwise random Pig Charges and launch your pigs at the intended target). Additionally, without the Bayou Gremlins in the crew you will be unable to replace dead Piglets (and feed the control hand).

That's right. AND... Mosquitos can kill the opponent's hand, thats very important for your Cb4-Piglet-Strikes. AND... the Slop Hauler must decide whether he wants to heal or souey. Both isn't possible.

For an effective pig booomerang I'd try to leave out all unnecessary supporting models and to involve as many piglets as possible; e.g. 30SS would be Somer, Mosquito, 2 Bayous, Hog Whisperer or Slop Hauler (depends on terrain), 5-6 Piglets and a few soulstones.

(A)

1. Bayou Gremlin uses reckless for ... pass or whatever in order to suffer 1 Wd

2. Som'er uses "Git Yer Bro" on this Gremlin, now you should have a 2Wd Gremlin and a 1Wd Gremlin

3. Som'er strikes the 1Wd Gremlin and needs to cheat a :crows for "come and get it", Gremlin cheats low if necessary

4. After you got a piglet, the taxidermist can spend a (1) action to transform it into a stuffed one.

--> maximum 2 piglet/turn (without wasting AP for "Git yer bro": 3 piglets/turn)

( Or the Taxidermist summons a stuffed piglet from a corpse counter (e.g. dead Gremlin), but he needs a 6:crows+

--> maximum 3 stuffed piglets/turn

© Or Som'er Avatar casts Swamp gas with trigger, but needs a 10:tomes+

--> maximum 3 piglets/turn

All in all you can supply up to 15 pigapults for 45 shoots per turn (in theory).

(Som'er and 4 Taxidermists in a brawl)

I think (A) is the easiest way. Use Mosquitos' Larva on Bayou Gremlins to draw the important :crows card for "come and get it" and a 11+ for "Git yer bro". And don't cheat these two cards in other duels.

Though I'm not a resurrectionist pro-player, I'd recommend to have more models in play than our opponent in order to activate your master/key-models after your opponents’ master/key-models. Another general advice is to have a good mixture of models which can work together well, so that you have more than one answer.

And... take a look at

http://pullmyfinger.wikispaces.com

You'll find some really good stuff about your master/minions and your opponents' master/minions.

EDIT: Maybe the real pros could be interested how your crew typically looks like?

6 - Pere Ravage and Launchin' is fun. Either he dies (activating KABOOM!) or he lives, allowing you to shoot him with Rami and blow him up again. The best way to do this is activate Ophelia, Pere and Rami (in that order) via Companion and then have Ophelia use Family Tree on the Pigapult to have it skip ahead in the chain and activate right after her.

IMO that works better without Launch'n:

Activate Ophelia (companion on Pere and Rami), 8" double-walk, "Ooo! A Girl" on Pere.

Activate Pere, 10" double-walk, "Ooopsie!" (cheat a 13!!!) via reckless - now he should have 1 WD left

Activate Rami, shoot Pere for Ka-blooey.

All in all two pulses (DG 9) with 18" threat-range and one activation.

That should work in a Som'er crew without Rami, too. Kill your opponent's hand (Gremlin's luck) before activating Ophelia and shoot Pere with a Pigapult-Shoot (for some additional blasts), or a Stuffed Piglet (double-walk + Bacon Bomb for third pulse), or a Bayou Gremlin, or let your opponent kill Pere.

EDIT:

7 - Launch'n Ophelia at the opponent's master. You have to wait till your opponent is done with activations (no problem for Gremlins) and you need at least four soulstones and a few high cards on your hand. Launch Ophelia and use one stone for the Df->11 test, if you need it. Use "Dumb and lucky" for her and shoot three times with paired Cb6 and a soulstone for the attack flip. If that master survived the incredible amount of damage (something between 4 and 16 Dg per shoot), pray, and hope for the initiative flip, and repeat Ophelia's activations.

Ok, that's really dirty, but a lot of fun, too

EDIT2: Oh, now I see that I repeated point 5 of Dumb Luck's post, but more detailled... sorry 4 spam

I didn't find a solution via search function.

Short question:

Is the result of the spell "flip for it" by Bayou Gremlins cumulative?

For example: 2 Gremlins cast this aura. Is the value of flipped cards reduced/increased by 4?

Ophelia plays on one of the strengths of the Gremlins (number of models), don't see it as cheesy. Kudos for bringing Pere in a fixed list tournament though, that's pretty brave of him.. xD

It isn't brave - it's reckless...

Hahaha, I really wanna know who voted for that Marcus list

I bet the player who fields the dreamer

Do you mind sharing with us your recipe for the brown on your Witchling Stalkers?

Ok, I try to remember

I started with a white primar.

- Khemri Brown

- very soft drybrush with blood red

- soft drybrush with Tallarn Flesh

- soft drybrush with Dheneb stone

Now, the capes are very light red-brown, like a salmon.

- wash with Devlun Mud

- wash with Gryphonne Sephia

- wash with Baal Red

- wash with Ogryn Flesh

THX!

Atilla, did you dip these models? If so, what did you use. Thanks.

I used several layers with different citadel washes.