Mr_Smigs

I hope it's not a "every area's a domain" ... otherwise there's just too many parallels to Helldorado...

ok...

so outside of Obey...

If McMorning is Slow, can he:

(+1) Action : Discard a token and gain fast (canceling slow)

then

(1 AP) : Discard a token and gain fast again.

thus protecting himself from Slow for the rest of the round?

ok, rough example...

a model obey's a model with Driven By Purpose, can she make it take a wound and push it?

similarly, a model obey's something with "Passion for his work" can you chose to make it discard a token to get fast?

RAW.... a corpse counter is not a model.

therefor it could not be an enemy model.

Wow... so... I agree to Bigmike's assessment,

we find a viable solution that both fits the descriptions in the book and the logic on the forums...

I try to be nice and explain where the misunderstanding on my end came from...

and... you guys call me dumb... dumb for using a method of thinking that's used worldwide in business and technical writing...

thanks.

demkoenig thank you for your kind response in my defense and very accurate summation of why some of us think clarity in rules for the lowest common denominator of players is the best.

I think I'll walk away from this thread before I feel the need to question the career paths of some forum members maternal lineage... or similarly say something unworthy of the forums.

As I understand it,

special actions, like Relentless, generate 1 Specific AP that can be used on that special action...

but can general AP then be spent to do the action again if the ability doesn't say it can only be used once?

Sorry if I seemed abusive, but it just seems like you are purposely trying to misinterpret things that are fairly simple to understand (ESPECIALLY to new players).

when learning new rules, I run it like a program,

that's basically how i explain it to others, and how I teach it...

so in this case...

Activate model

1-> look at abilities, do anything they tell you to do.

2-> Apply effects (Companion, rally, etc...)

3-> calculate AP

4-> do stuff.

when initially looking at the rule, because it was an ability and an action, I was assuming it took place in step 1 (and thus the question of mandatory) ...

but really it happens in both step 3 and 4.

in step 3 it generates Specific AP

in step 4 that specific AP can be used on the action listed.

really, from my perspective (from a code-junkie end) the abilities would read like:

Ability - Relentless - This model gets 1 AP for the Relentless Move Action.

Action - (1) Relentless Move : such and so forth...

or just

Ability - Relentless - Once per activation (Relentless wording with MAY in there)

but the way the game language uses it,

the (+1) is the "Ability" part of that, and the rest is the action part.

which becomes important, because if a model is somehow restricted to only specific actions, then it makes sure the model cannot use it.

by the current ruling. yes.

as the model currently has "slow waiting to resolve" and you can apply that "waiting to resolve" status effect multiple times.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24905&page=2

alas, the comment there says it only removes 1 instance.

again

IMMUNE says noting about not receiving the effect,

just not being afflicted by its resolution.

it's like being able to have poison counters, but not resolving them (new mode, can't remember his name off the top, ressurectionist dude)

and since the rulings there and elsewhere establish that "Fast" and "Slow" do not resolve until the model's activation, but can stack on the model...

it implies that we can stack effects on immune models because, again, the resolution is all IMMUNITY changes... not the application.

Popped into my head on the way to work...

Guild have those lovely models that "Remove Slow, and Make you immune to Slow...." (Drill Sgt IIRC)

Rules Manual says:

A model immune to or able to ignore X cannot be affected or modified by X when resolving the effect

but doesn't say you can't have X effect on the model. Just that it does not change the model... so secondary effects that are reliant on it (Alps) could, in theory, still affect the model...

1. If you have a "stack" of slows on the model, and they give this power, what happens?

2. If you have "immune to slow" and you activate around an alp, do you still test for slow?

3. If you have "immune to slow" and another model would put slow on you with an Effect, what happens?

interesting.

ok,

so an effect causes Sacrificed, but Sacrificed is not an effect.

ah... right on, thanks. (Was still looking in the old box)...

but then, the question still remains,

if a model has an ability that just "Ignores WP duels" will The Box Opens ignore it

(not that I can think of such a power, but for future reference)

Using nurse to reactivate nico while ignoring the sacrifice effect due to manifest is devious.

I was told KILLED is not an effect,

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=310647&postcount=12

wouldn't that also mean that Sacrificed is not an effect?

Immune and Ignore are special words ...

when Pandora's power says models lose their Immunities,

does this include stuff like Frozen Heart?

Was thinking about this today while our local Henchman was running an event (alas, I had to work, so I couldn't hang for it)

Since I started wargaming, I've done plenty of tourneys... a couple years ago, I basically gave up on going 'cause they stopped being fun... (which, ultimately, I decided was more important than any other reason to play)

For all you current tournament players,

What makes the tourney better than just regular, casual play?

basically, why do you do it?

No.

Someone once complained that everything needed to be in straight, plain English. That obviously won't work either.

you have a point there. i was just making the offer.

tho, flow charts can have clear english in them...

It seems as though code has a language specific to explaining its logic. That is what is evolving here. It's painful at times. I can only imagine as rough as it is on us as players it's even worse on the developers.

this is why I spend so much time treating rules discussions like debugging programs.

a programming language (like an instruction set) has set terms. specific definitions that are used.

when those definitions change, it can change how the program runs.

and thus why, whenever one of those definitions are used unclearly, we have to ask alot of questions on clarity.

I think about some of the other games out there, and chuckle about how they've spent years longer in production (decades in some cases....), and have a system that's even muddier, and not nearly as compelling.

and I can think of a couple where players have offered ways to help clarify and the rules guys have declined.

which is why I keep hoping we can catch early misunderstandings early and get the corrections somewhere handy for all new players.

I have to admit, I AM a fan of flowcharts, for work flow and electronics. Admittedly it's the same in function for anything you might make one for. Any of the three suggestions you've made would make the game less accessible to more of its audience. Plain English would likely not serve the stakeholders nearly as well. A balance is going to have to be found.

yep.

similarly, they could use multiple ones.

tho, that would eat precious development time for the writers...

but i fear we're getting terribly off topic. perhaps a new thread on this would be better...

code people may or may not make the world easier to understand to other code people, but to non-code people it looks long-winded and overcomplicated.

ah... would you prefer Venn Diagrams and Flow Charts?

I would like to point out that the original question is answered on page 33 under specific action points. the +1 is added to the models ap at the beginning of the activation. the +1 can only be spent on that action. you may however pass that action.

ok... this makes sense.

you DO get the AP. but since it's linked to just the single action, it's "Specific AP" and can be discarded without use.

so it's not 'the AP is optional' it's "using the AP granted on this action, the only action the AP can be used on, is optional" (It just so happens that some of these actions generate extra AP/Events)

so the sacrifice of a card, or body part or whatever... is part of the Action the Specific AP granted by the (+1) lists... not the cost to get that +1 AP in the first part...

does that make sense or am I just going crazy?

I would like to point out that the original question is answered on page 33 under specific action points. the +1 is added to the models ap at the beginning of the activation. the +1 can only be spent on that action. you may however pass that action.

ok... this makes sense.

you DO get the AP. but since it's linked to just the single action, it's "Specific AP" and can be discarded without use.

so it's not 'the AP is optional' it's "using the AP granted on this action, the only action the AP can be used on, is optional" (It just so happens that some of these actions generate extra AP/Events)

that I can pass on to a new player clearly.

thank you BigMike.

so... driving home today, heard some lovely Megadeath and realized that the plot of Malifaux seems to be following the old lyrics...

and with all the "who's who" and "what references to the real world are there....

I find myself wondering, now that they've got through the 3 verses... what song is next...

You take a mortal man

And put him in control

Watch him become a god

Watch peoples heads a 'roll

A 'roll, a 'roll

Just like the pied piper

Led rats through the streets

We dance like Marionettes

Swaying to the symphony of destruction

Acting like a robot

It's metal brain corrodes

You try to take its pulse

Before the head explodes

Explodes, explodes

Just like the pied piper

Led rats through the streets

We dance like Marionettes

Swaying to the symphony

Just like the pied piper

Led rats through the streets

We dance like Marionettes

Swaying to the symphony

Swaying to the symphony of destruction

The earth starts to rumble

World powers fall

A warring for the heavens

A peaceful man stands tall

Tall, tall

Just like the pied piper

Led rats through the streets

We dance like Marionettes

Swaying to the symphony

Just like the pied piper

Led rats through the streets

We dance like Marionettes

Swaying to the symphony

Swaying to the symphony of destruction

the only one I can't figure out... who's the "peaceful man"...

ok, going to group a couple threads together since they basically come down to the same question:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24932

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24933

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24935

Going to use "power" here to refer to talents/abilities/spells that affect AP

Where I'm currently boggled is in this general acceptance of "Specific AP granting powers are optional"

this creates a problem,

Flesh Construct's Dumb is listed before actions on the card, in the Abilities section and Dumb is not considered optional (from what I've been told outside the forums)

Logic : Dumb is an abilities, abilities are not optional unless they say so.

The Manaquin has (-1) Slow as an Action

SLOW is an AP granting power. (Negative AP, but it's listed in the same section as other AP granting powers)

but, actions are optional

so, why would anyone take this action?

then we could get into the argument that "Slow as an effect from a spell is not optional because it is an effect"

(Since we've established in my quest for clarity on what an effect is that some Talents/Actions are effects...

but,

if that is true,

then when Justice gives Melee Expert to a model, they MUST use it as well.

now, further,

page 12, indicates that Fast, and Action Modifiers are Abilities, just listed under the Actions section for ease of reference,

it also says these abilities are Always Active unless otherwise indicated.

then it goes to say that

Quote:

Actions: Any Specific Actions a model can perform in addition to the general Actions outlined on p.33....

CAN... not MUST. so, sure, beneficial actions are optional...

but then we're right back to Slow (one of these "Action"/"Abilities")

so we've established

There are Abilities that are Actions, they are listed in the Actions section of the card.

Abilities are Always on, but those that are Actions can be ignored.

Fast and Slow are two of these special Action/Abilities

What "Common Sense" to all the forum veterans (not necessarily new players joining) tells us is

"Every Ability/Action that is a BONUS AP is optional, but any PENALTY is mandatory."

but where is that covered in the rules/errata?

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24851&page=5

so, looks like you can "get" slow, and "fast" at the same time,

they just don't resolve until activation...

so a model with Fast would still "get" slow and be affected...

unless they're talking about the "Slow Effect" not the "Slow waiting to be resolved"

*big inhale* This is gona be a long one (Part 1 - Why. Part 2 - Definition Problems. Part 3 - summary)

Part 1

here's the problem...

[rant on]

in the last month i've been fed alot of "common sense" rules (like slow stacking) that haven't really fit what the rules manual says.

after sitting down and reading the rules manual, i thought, thought my background in programming made many of these interactions obvious....

while a number of little things (like Companion on models back int he old version) have been adjusted, the rules manual made alot of that clear...

then I came back to the forums to ask about the stuff that didn't seem quite right...

and saw there were others that seemed a little off when the rulings given were applied...

yes, i really do want to play the game "right" (as intended)... problem is, I come from a training where instructions given are very very clear.

where the difference between AND and OR can make or break a decision making process.

now, to make matters worse... years of playing with the Michigan groups has taught me that every game you play is a Demo. Anyone who walks up might be someone you can get into the game, IF you can explain it.

Having to tell them "this doesn't quite fit the book, but if you go online it makes sense" has made a good number of people walk away from the table in just about every game i've played.

and telling someone it's common sense from the old days of the game just makes new players feel like they'll get wafflestomped 'cause they haven't memorized the errata like everyone else...

so I hound the rules for real, solid explanations that are consistent so when an observer asks "why" i can tell them.

this is why i treat every rules question as though I'm a complete newbie with no background in the game (aside from having missed the last rules update and still catching up on it)

[/rant off]

now, as someone else pointed out "common sense is so goddamn rare it should be a super power"

Part 2

Going to use "power" here to refer to talents/abilities/spells that affect AP

Where I'm currently boggled is in this general acceptance of "Specific AP granting powers are optional"

this creates a problem,

Flesh Construct's Dumb is listed before actions on the card, in the Abilities section and Dumb is not considered optional (from what I've been told outside the forums)

Logic : Dumb is an abilities, abilities are not optional unless they say so.

The Manaquin has (-1) Slow as an Action

SLOW is an AP granting power. (Negative AP, but it's listed in the same section as other AP granting powers)

but, actions are optional

so, why would anyone take this action?

then we could get into the argument that "Slow as an effect from a spell is not optional because it is an effect"

(Since we've established in my quest for clarity on what an effect is that some Talents/Actions are effects...

but,

if that is true,

then when Justice gives Melee Expert to a model, they MUST use it as well.

now, further,

page 12, indicates that Fast, and Action Modifiers are Abilities, just listed under the Actions section for ease of reference,

it also says these abilities are Always Active unless otherwise indicated.

then it goes to say that

Actions: Any Specific Actions a model can perform in addition to the general Actions outlined on p.33....

CAN... not MUST. so, sure, beneficial actions are optional...

but then we're right back to Slow (one of these "Action"/"Abilities")

Part 3

so we've established

There are Abilities that are Actions, they are listed in the Actions section of the card.

Abilities are Always on, but those that are Actions can be ignored.

Fast and Slow are two of these special Action/Abilities

What "Common Sense" to all the forum veterans (not necessarily new players joining) tells us is

"Every Ability/Action that is a BONUS AP is optional, but any PENALTY is mandatory."

but where is that covered in the rules/errata?

ok,

so he takes poison damage,

keeps poison tokens

then can sac 'em to heal after.

that's what i thought, just wanted to make sure.

thank you for the clarification

sadly, searching "twisting fates errors" only returns this thread....

since the book only hit shelves yesterday here, i'm curious to make sure i understand this stuff right.