Kelmor

Nice write up Steve. Once again you were a great help at the show. I hope we can give Malifaux a even bigger showing next year!

I am glad the event went so well and I hope we can continue to help make Malifaux a bigger deal every year at Templecon. (we have a long way to go to catch up to WM/H )

Special thanks goes out to the NJ Gamer guys for providing the awesome terrain and taking care of business!

Kevin (from the Warstore)

I am going to be there and its going to be a great time!

Don't bunny-hop to conclusion boys.

Wow, you really said that

I heard that in book 2 we will learn that book 1 was a dream.

We have a group that plays on Wednesdays at Games and Gizmos in Redmond

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=games%20and%20gizmos&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl

Ultimately, I think that the fact that both the errata and FAQ are available Malifaux is really the most important thing. While a "cleaned up" version of the book is not a bad idea in the long run, I don't see why they should rewrite and layout the rulebook when the game came out less than a year ago.

For example, take a look at Warmachine (since it was mentioned earlier), the original Prime was released in 2003. It was four years later that they finally updated those rules with the information from the online FAQ and errata with the release of Prime Remix. Before then, players had to look online for this information, plus the company would publish the most recent updates in the next book when it was released. Every single book that they released before Mk II came out contains multiple pages of errata and FAQs for the previous books. If anything, I think that this would be a better route to take instead of releasing a "new" version of the rulebook.

Actually they only printed the errata in Escalation.

The issue with printing errata is that if you make an additional change to a rule, you have to make the change in 2 places now (or more depending on when the update is made)

Miniatures games rules are fluid, they must remain so to react to growing competition and evolving play skill.

I'm sorry but people like to hate on the 40k rules just because they hate GW. Seriously there is nothing wrong with the current rules, they are extremely clear. Rule issues with 40k come from individual figure/army rules in codexes. GW does many bad things, but they do a very good job on the quality of their main rulebooks.

Thats kinda refining the thing a bit.

I think GW makes amazing miniatures and I wish that they made a game worthy of them.

There are currently situations where you can win the game by not allowing your opponent to deploy. That is a HUGE rules issue.

They talked about a guy winning a event that way in White Dwarf and how cool it was.

This is where GW fails at rules

You old timers with the original rules are missing my main point: bringing new players to the game. As a new player, the rules are a HUGE barrier because of the poor writing style. I am a new player, so please consider my perspective. Without new players, the game will die.

I dont think anyone is missing the point, I just dont think that is what they were talking about (at least I was not). I think you might be a tough overly harsh in your assessment of the rules language, I know there are places where it needed some clean up but the rules work really well, especially for a new company that has never made a miniatures game before. I know I was impressed with them.

Yes, I know all games undergo changes, witness 40k and Warmachine. WHich is exactly the point: THAT'S YOUR COMPETITION. If a new player looks at the rulebooks of 40k, WM. and Malifaux in the store -- guess which one is the worst, writing wise? Malifuax. Because it's new and hasn't had years of playing and revising. And because of some poor decisions in the original layout and writing style. Not to mention spelling and grammar mistakes, etc.

And all that's fine, but Malifaux has got to finish its growing pains quickly or it will disappear in the marketplace.

I am assuming that you actually like the product, and are writing from a perspective of tough love here.

I think you will find plenty of spelling and grammar mistakes in all of the books from the products you list above.

Malifaux if the first Miniatures game to come out in as long as I can remember that actually brought something new to the table. They have a lot going for them. I think you might put a lot more weight on the things you mention than is warranted.

The barrier to making a successful minis game is a lot higher than when 40k and WM started, and Wyrd has to step up its game or disappear as so many other games have.

THEY HAVE TO MAKE THEIR RULES AT LEAST AS WELL-WRITTEN AS WARMACHINE. 40k rules talk down to the reader, but WM does not, so I think it's a better style.

I appreciate what you are saying (or what I think you are trying to say) but you seem to forget that it has taken Warmachine almost 7 years to get where they are today. Go find a black and white copy of prime and then look over the Malifaux rules.

You people are whining about "having to buy new rules." You should be whining about not being able to find opponents because the game disappears from shelves within the year.

Example: I was playing last night with another new player. We wanted to look up terrain and its effect on movement. No index, no easy way to find about how it affected movement. We skipped from section to section with no luck. After a minute, we gave up and made our own rules. WHy should we buy rules when we end up having to make up our own?

No index? Please. That alone qualifies it for a rewriting and re-issue. Other major issues:

- poor grammar

- bad sentence structure

- poor organization. All rules should be together and all fluff should be in a separate section.

- poor/no logic to structure of book. New edition needs to look at the the game with FRESH EYES like they've never seen it before. It should be easy to read in a logical progressive manner, and build on knowledge from previous chapters.

Now a lot of this is your opinion of how things should have been done. I don't disagree with the intent of what you are saying but you could step down off the pulpit and communicate much better than you are

THe fanboi attitude is wonderful for keeping the core base alive, but is very destructive towards new players. And without new players, the game dies.

*sigh* most of you don't care about that, though...you enjoy the exclusionary attitude of "I learned the rules the hard way, so to hell with everyone else who wants it easy." Or "I'm scared to look at a new book."

Here I disagree with your assessment, additionally you get more insulting.

I think you are mistaking a common trait among humans. Anyone who was there "first" feels like they have tenure on those that come later. This is true in all things, not just gaming.

Soon you'll be playing with your toys alone. Is that what you really want? If you really care about this game and want to share it with the world, then embrace revisions and new editions.

I do not think that Wyrd is going to vanish any time soon. I think we will only see improvement. Expecting them to come out of the gate with a product that looks the same as what has come before them is foolish, and forgets where those other products have been.

The growth of a thing is what makes it interesting, what keeps it alive, you cannot expect a baby to come out and start winning wars, you need to allow for that baby to develop and grow. You do that by taking care of it, and nurturing it, and yes some times it requires tough love, I just think that you are a little early on that application

The solution is simple: hire professional writers, copy the WM format and style, and incorporate errata. Viola! More $$$ for Wyrd and more opponents for us!

Just like that?

You know the writers who can work for what Wyrd can afford? Why would Wyrd copy a style when they are clearly setting out on their own image?

I appreciate that you brought it back home with the errata, but I have to ask, what gamers out there dont look for errata when they start a new game?

Maybe that is the message missing from the book.

In concept you are correct, I think you are skipping a lot of time and many steps in your solution, and I think you will only see better and better products from Wyrd.

Please take this as intended, which is as a open and frank discussion with no malice intended

I wont speak to the money involved as I do not know the details but i do know that changing a print run costs money.

Most miniatures games live by the community they create. Game companies do not function in a traditional business model sense, they are almost entirely word of mouth driven in niche markets.

I know in my book (and on the cards) I black out anything that has been changed, and red out anything that has been removed. That way I can never miss that something has changed

I don't think anymore than having online errata.

Not every player makes use of the website. I have gone to other game stores and had to explain to people what replace meant when growing nephilim, that Bete Noire's mark for death did indeed have a resist (that ****er just wouldn't believe me), etc.

I think that if I had been armed with a rule book with a big "R" on the front for revised I would have had a much easier time of things.

But that's me. And maybe I've just had some bad experiences. This is kind of a dead horse, so I probably shouldn't have posted, but I wanted to help clarify panzerkraken's point; we LOVE the errata, don't stop that, the difference in philosophy is how it's presented.

And lets not forget the ever popular "now I have to buy another book" syndrome.

I think we are in agreement in general. Its really a question of timing.

When do you release the revised book with all the errata. I think that its pretty easy to tell when that time is from a development perspective, then it just comes down to, will the community accept a revised book right now.

I don't think anybody (well, anybody who posted today) is complaining that there IS errata. They're just confused as to why the most current errata wouldn't be included in subsequent print runs of the rulebook, which are bound to happen eventually. Not talking about a total rewrite of the rules or a new edition at all.

That is a fair confusion which I can lay to rest with an example as to why its not the best idea.

Imagine that you and a buddy are both looking in your books, at a section that had errata trying to figure something out, and your both coming up with different answers.

Errata is consistent. Go find it, it adjusts the snapshot of whats in print. I personally do not think that once a book is printed it should ever be changed until released as a clear new edition.

It all comes down to philosophy of design.

I come from a philosophy that what is more important than anything is making sure that the play environment is stable and the rules are working as intended. I believe that if things need changing, they should be changed.

They should also be caught first, but the reality is that it will take at least a year of public play for some issue to come to light. There is no way that any miniatures company in the market could generate that kind of playtest volume let alone in the time frames they usually work in.

So what that leaves us with is Errata. I don't view errata as a bad thing. I think it proves that the devs are watching and care about their product.

Glad to see you here Sam. See you at the convention!

Thats pretty strong work there sir!

How have I missed this thread for so long!

It was a fun event, I am glad everyone had a good time and I look forward to coming out strong next year with a larger presence for sure!

Kevin (the guy runnin the thing!)

I think this thread has done its laps.

Favedave, as one of the guys here trying to make the rules language improve, I offer myself as a direct line of contact if you have issues that you do not see resolved in the errata.

Drop me a PM if you want to talk

Wednesdays are the "malifaux" days right now, although its light due to MK 2 Warmachine and some events starting.

We will get you taken care of. Drop me a line!

Yes it is, and see ya next year!

Glad you had fun at the show! It was a blast. I am sure you will enjoy your new toys

First thing I did was get the book spiral bound. I would recommend it for any book you intend to leave opened flat for any amount of time.

Sorry for the lack of updates folks.

Registration is opened on the Templecon page!

A couple of things. Overall winner will be decided by accumulation of Victory Points.

Proxies:

Proxies will only be allowed for models which are un-released at the time of the convention. Try to make them some what logical please

I know there will be Malifaux events at Kingdom Con out that way next year too. We will find you a con you can play at

The details are being worked on now. Watch this thread for more info!

There is not currently a OP format, so unless one is released before the event we will be winging it. I will post details as I finish testing them.

It will be a good time