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Brewmaster and a newbie


Tossy

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I will just quickly give a rundown of me. I know nothing about the game, I have played once about 4 months ago during 1.5. 

 

I hear he is good in 10T too (which is better in your opinion?) Because I love the look of Misaki too. However I also love the look of ophelia and wong too. Anyway I am getting distracted

 

Ok I have no idea how to design a crew to begin with and he is the guy I want to play, any suggestions or sample lists you are willing to share?

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No Brewmaster experience on my part since he isn't out yet. Thus, some commonplaces:

 

 

is he a viable master for a new player?  Thoughts? 

 

Of course. Each Master is viable for new players. Strong summoners need a broader model collection for their A game, but Brewmaster is no summoner.

 

 

 

I hear he is good in 10T too (which is better in your opinion?) Because I love the look of Misaki too. However I also love the look of ophelia and wong too. Anyway I am getting distracted

 

Ok I have no idea how to design a crew to begin with and he is the guy I want to play, any suggestions or sample lists you are willing to share?

 

He can play as Gremlin or 10T. Both should be viable, and your choice depends simply on preference. The crew design process is rather simple for starters: You get his box and play 2-4 games. Then you should have an inkling what you like and add models that match your preferences.

 

Sample lists are not common in Malifaux. Beginners often have only few models, so their choices are limited from the start. When your model palette grows you design the list after hearing your opponents faction, seeing the terrain and knowing the victory objectives. Prepared list are somewhat counterproductive to this principle.

 

Do you have more specific questions? I'm sure we can find some answers for you.

 

In the meantime I can only point you to this blog.

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I have never seen him played as Ten Thunders but as soon as the pieces are out I have some ideas about it.  I think that some Thunder archers ottotto and a pennangalin would be fun with him.  This is all just theory faux the only three games Ive actually played with Brewmaster were over vassal and I basically just played the box with some piglets and a Golum.  I won 2 of three of those games and they were super fun.  

 

+1 to Dirial  buy the box(and maybe a whiskey golem) when it comes out.  Then see what you need to add to round out your crew.  Oh and if you are going Gremlins it never hurts to have more bayou Grems.  

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I suspect so. Shinobi are fun models and should go reasonably well with the other masters.

 

Fingers is a god in Scheme marker based games. Adding him to another crew should go well.

 

All in all, the three Gremlins box sets are very compatible. I begin to think buying all of them is a very smart way of starting Gremlins.

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Brewmaster's not that newbie friendly imho, he plays as a control tank and doesn't have a direct damage attack (outside of an upgrade). Maybe being newer to the game that won't be as much of a barrier to you but generally the control masters are tougher to play than the direct damage masters.

His themed minions, the Moon Shinobi, imo are weak on a competitive level. They're most useful against targets that have defenses that give you negatives.

 Fingers, as has already been said, is golden in interacting dependent schemes/strats and can be useful whichever Gremlin master you take.

 

If you're already looking at Ophelia, in her box you'll find Francois, arguably, point for point, the best damage dealer available to the faction. He works well for any master but particularly Brewie as he can put the enemy on negatives with Hangover then Francois can companion activate before they get the chance to do anything and take advantage.

 

Other models I'd advise for Brewie to take, and would be good with other masters as you expand in the faction: Bayou Gremlins, fast, cheap objective runners. Lenny, bit of a tank, buffs other gremlins with +1 armour (well, better than armour, it can't be ignored) and +Ram. Gracie, tank that can take the Saddle upgrade to help cart other models around so they can use their AP for other things. Sammy LaCroix, (no model available yet) can take one of Brewies upgrades to free up space for him, has an attack that can spread poison, can summon stuffed pigs by discarding enemy scheme markers and has Jynx! (Seriously, this ability is amazing). Trixibelle, can cheat initiative, this can be key with Brewie, he wants to go 1st to get his aura up and make sure the key enemy models are debuffed, she's also got a reverse lure and an ability to hand out poison.

 

Final model for Brewie I'd advise (not tried it yet myself though think it should work) are the Performers from the Arcanist faction, they've got a lure to help pull people into Brewies aura, they give out poison and can give out paralyzed too. You have to pay the merc tax so they're 6ss (the same price as a Moon Shinobi...but better!).

 

Final point, try and stay away from the mentality of building an all comers list, pick your crew after you've seen the strat/schemes.

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To discuss the other side, in 10 Thunders you get access to Izamu, Tannen, Graves, and Yin. All have some synergy with Brewmaster as well as Fermented River Monks and Sensei Yu. You can also use Torakage from Misaki's box along with Ototo and Kang from Mei Feng. You could always just pick them all up (eventually this WILL happen).

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What everyone else said!

Play the box with the Whiskey Golem in Gremlins or Ten Thunders.

Find out which side of the fence you like because everything that follows is a matter of preference:

 

Tri-Chi:

Moon Shinobi are just plain fun and dirty to play with. Never forget Drunken Gremlin Kung Fu!

Fingers is unreal when it comes to scheme markers.

Whiskey Golem...meh. Too many stones for my crews, but I've heard good things

 

Gremlins:

Kin...seriously Ophelia and Brewmaster must be friends because....

Francois hits like a semi truck

Raphael can withstand most anything

 

Ten Thunders:

Kang is Brewmaster's Henchman. Immunity to Horror Duels and positive twists against construct/undead is god like

Graves/Tannen is just mean to run with Brewmaster...they've become regulars

Izamu is the perfect target for Misdirection as well as keeping things inside the bubble.

 

As far as upgrades go Brewmaster hisself can run really light on the upgrades, which is very nice, but in Ten Thunders I'd always suggest Misdirection.

The ability to slough damage off on a nearby model is always nice.

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I'm not sure how essential Sammy is with Brewie, at least from an upgrade point of view. One of the great things about Brewie is he can run upgrade light and still be quite strong.

 

Oh, she's not essential for him, especially not for the upgrade holding. I'm like you, I like Brewie upgrade light but I would consider her with Hold Their Hair Back, more to free up Brewies AP than an upgrade slot...also, you know I LOVE Jynx!

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Brewmaster's not that newbie friendly imho, he plays as a control tank and doesn't have a direct damage attack (outside of an upgrade). Maybe being newer to the game that won't be as much of a barrier to you but generally the control masters are tougher to play than the direct damage masters.

I agree but then again lots of people started the first edition with Colette and I think that Brewmaster is a lot easier to get the hang of. Besides, as you kinda allude to, beginners might come to the game without 'bad habits' such as concentrating on killing. Brewmaster works very well if you remember to focus on achieving the Schemes and Strategies :)

His themed minions, the Moon Shinobi, imo are weak on a competitive level. They're most useful against targets that have defenses that give you negatives.

They are likely one SS too expensive but that isn't a huge deal. They were cuddled rather radically in the latter stages of the open beta (they used to have 4" melee reach, which kinda defined them) and likely got out a bit half-baked as a result. They aren't bad but indeed maybe not quite worth the 6SS especially as Gremlins have some extremely good models in the 5SS bracket as well as in the 7SS bracket.

If you're already looking at Ophelia, in her box you'll find Francois, arguably, point for point, the best damage dealer available to the faction.

"available in the game" more like :D

Lenny, bit of a tank, buffs other gremlins with +1 armour (well, better than armour, it can't be ignored) and +Ram.

Have you found Lenny good with Brewie? To me it seems that his crews don't usually need the +Ram all that much.

Final model for Brewie I'd advise (not tried it yet myself though think it should work) are the Performers from the Arcanist faction, they've got a lure to help pull people into Brewies aura, they give out poison and can give out paralyzed too. You have to pay the merc tax so they're 6ss (the same price as a Moon Shinobi...but better!).

Well, I'd say that comparing Shinobi and the Preformer is rather difficult :)
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I highly recommend the Fermented Monks, though this will mean that you will need to take the infiltration upgrade.  Francois, Sammy, and Bayou Gators are also good pickups as well.

I've been wondering about the Fermented Monks. On paper they seem fantastic but the upgrade needed for them costs 2SS and the ability that it comes with, though situationally very powerful, is... situational. So the tax for using Fermented Monks is actually very high. Are they really that good?
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I've been wondering about the Fermented Monks. On paper they seem fantastic but the upgrade needed for them costs 2SS and the ability that it comes with, though situationally very powerful, is... situational. So the tax for using Fermented Monks is actually very high. Are they really that good?

Only used them once and in 10 thunders, but by god were they nasty. It's really easy to get the desired reactivate with the brewmaster making them drunk out of their minds.

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Ten thunders brewy. Yin the pen + fermented monks = attack on wp with neg flips for your opponent. Have reactivate also can drink together. Work really well. Gremlin side Idk.

Oh aye, on TT side they are kinda the bread and butter of Brewy being sorta his only "own" models if he doesn't want to pay the upgrade tax. But on the Gremlin the situation is reversed.
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I find it interesting what I is said here about Moon Shinobi as I have heard they are amazing. Maybe I am missing something.

 

I think the Shinobi are kind of a "love them or hate them" model.  There are strong opinions on both sides.  I personally found them quite good the few times I ran the Brewmaster, so I don't quite understand the hate.  They are *moderately* expensive at 6ss for Gremlins, but I think Wave 2 really put that cost into better perspective.

 

Their major fault, in my mind, is that they are a jack-of-all-trades kind of model.  They are both mobile and decent in combat.  The problem is that because they are decent at both for their cost they excel in neither for their cost.  So you can find better objective runners for their cost, or you can finder beatstickier beatsticks for their cost.  But if you want a more versatile force I think they're pretty sound.

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Obviously I'm in the other camp to Darguth, their extra mobility comes from taking damage from poison (which is supposed to be hooch to them?) yet they don't really have enough wounds to be playing about with too much poison, plus you would need some way to get the poison onto them and imo the crew had few enough ways of dolling out poison as it is without using my few options + AP to do it to my own guys. They also have a (0) to push towards a target with poison but again I feel this suffers as the most likely targets to have poison will already be in Brewies control bubble.

 

I think they're sub-par in combat, yes you'll often have straight or positive flips to damage (if you hit, Ml4/5 is average), but then it's still going to cost you a high card if you want to cause severe and is max damage 4.

 

I look at it like this, would I take them to fulfill the same role if Brewie wasn't my master and does the added synergy with Brewie make them better than whatever I would have taken if Brewie wasn't my master. For an objective runner that can do a bit of damage for around the same cost you can get 2 BG's, a Rooster Rider, Francois, a Hog Whisperer, Merris or a Lightning bug and I'd pick any one of them over a Moon Shinobi.

 

Don't get me wrong, I want to love them, they're the reason I'm playing Gremlins, I've already got my proxies and will still probably pick up the plastic crew, check out my avatar...maybe that's why I'm SO harsh on them, I was too emotionally invested from the beginning!

 

Darguth, you say you found them quite good when you used them mate? Can you give more details? What strat/scheme, opponent and what was the rest of your crew. It's probably worth showing Tossy (and me) how they can be used well (balance out some of my negativity too)

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I think the Shinobi are kind of a "love them or hate them" model.  There are strong opinions on both sides.  I personally found them quite good the few times I ran the Brewmaster, so I don't quite understand the hate.  They are *moderately* expensive at 6ss for Gremlins, but I think Wave 2 really put that cost into better perspective.

 

Their major fault, in my mind, is that they are a jack-of-all-trades kind of model.  They are both mobile and decent in combat.  The problem is that because they are decent at both for their cost they excel in neither for their cost.  So you can find better objective runners for their cost, or you can finder beatstickier beatsticks for their cost.  But if you want a more versatile force I think they're pretty sound.

Sounds like they are in Torakage territory by the sound of it.

 

But frankly, brewmaster is so good at debuffing that he can take anything and work with it, it just means that hangover is your bread and butter instead of spreading poison for the paralyze and wp debuff.

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I look at it like this, would I take them to fulfill the same role if Brewie wasn't my master and does the added synergy with Brewie make them better than whatever I would have taken if Brewie wasn't my master. For an objective runner that can do a bit of damage for around the same cost you can get 2 BG's, a Rooster Rider, Francois, a Hog Whisperer, Merris or a Lightning bug and I'd pick any one of them over a Moon Shinobi.

 

2x Bayou Gremlins:  Provide more AP and activations, but are much squishier, more self-explodey, and can't be buffed by Hangover.

 

Rooster Rider:  Better raw damage potential but much less reliable.  First of all you need to work around Rampage/Stampede for any reliability.  Additionally, I feel a Hangover-buffed Shinobi with Ml 5 Fist attacks that get to choose Rst Df/Wp and do 2/3/4 are just much more reliable damage than Ml 6 only targeting Df doing 2/4/6 with Stampede.

 

Francois: Dumb Luck obviously favors Francois's damage, but without heavy healing support it's risky.  Also, he's not that much durable with 2 lower Df even if he has 4 more Wds.  Also, Stumble Around Drunk is a much better disengaging trigger than standard Squeel!  The Shinobi is also probably the more mobile model, even without Reckless.  Don't get me wrong, Francois is great and overall I'd agree that he's probably a better buy...but he is unique too.  I don't think he's so much better as to be an automatic take necessarily in a BM crew at least, and once you have him you can't take more of him...so why not Shinobi?

 

Hog Whisperer:  Unless you have Pigs the Shinobi is just better in my mind for objective running and combat.  Sure, he's got Dumb Luck but on a pretty "meh" basic attack and without any healing or investing in healing support it's not that amazing.  He's +1 Wd over the Shinobi but with -1 Df and -1 Wp, and the tradeoff between Reckless or Poison-Pushes doesn't have a very wide gap.  The Shinobi has reliable, non-damaging movement and more reliable damage without investing a whole lot of support (BM or Wesley Hangovers is basically all you want, and it's not absolutely necessary).

 

Merris:  She's certainly one of our best objective runners but her combat abilities are some of our worst.  She's certainly not a *bad* choice, but I don't see her directly competing with what the Shinobi do.

 

Shinobi:  Honestly, I feel they are pretty close.  The Shinobi is more mobile.  The Bug has more utility.  Their combat abilities and durability are pretty comparable. It really comes down to a few minor tradeoffs.  Would you prefer more reliable pushes and more reliable melee attacks, or would you prefer Tinkerin' with the Unknown and the ability to ignore Armor?

 

I'm 100% in agreement that the Shinobi could be better.  I don't think they got enough attention really in the Wave 1 playtesting, which was honestly a problem with a few models.  It'd be nice if the BM avatar could enhance them in a meaningful way to encourage their inclusion without be a total crutch...but that's a different discussion. 

 

The real problem I see is that That's the Stuff has costs that are just a touch too high to like, so they appear unattractive at a glance, but honestly look at them and ignore that ability:

 

1.) Drunken Gremlin Kung Fu: This ability is soooo good.  Not only does it mitigate the normal [-] you incur over the course of the game, which are much more common than natural [+], but it also makes them practically immune to enemy debuffs AND synergizes with Hangover when you need that extra oomph.  Honestly, I think this ability is generally underrated.  It does so much and in numerous (somewhat) subtle ways.

 

2.) Stumble Around Drunk:  This is on par with Somer's Loudest Squeel, except for obviously they can't give themselves a Mask reliably like he can.  But it triggers off both Df/Wp *and* it doesn't even have to be an Attack Action, so it works off resist from Tactical Auras and Abilities, etc. (unless the printed cards differ from the PDFs I use as reference when I don't have cards with me).  This is a great melee "escape" trigger, and you can even use it to out-range or out-LoS ranged attacks and such too.  Great trigger overall.

 

3.) Roundhouse:  Eh, it's really a toss-on attack.  I'd only use it if I can't get into 1" range for their Fists or if I have the high Masks in hand that I'm willing to use (unlikely because it's great elsewhere) to get the push into contact. 

 

4.) Tiny Green Fists of Fury:  Ml 5 with only 2/3/4 is deceptively mediocre.  Choosing the Rst type is actually really large though as very few models have equivalent stats, so you can almost always exploit a weakness.  Honestly I consider this ability to be closer to Ml 6/7 in terms of raw probability to connect a hit, and that's not bad at all for a 6ss hybrid-model. 

 

Then, we must also consider the combined synergy with Drunken Gremlin Kung Fu.  You'll fairly often find yourself in a position where you can cheat down your attacks to hit with exactly 0 to get [+][+] to the damage flip.  That, in my mind, makes the 2/3/4 damage profile just fine as you'll almost always do at least 3 and pretty regularly 4.  That's not bad damage at all for a Gremlin minion when you're not taking damage in return.  The Take a Sip trigger and synergy with Hangover is just gravy.

 

5.) Where'd You Get That?:  Free movement is free movement.  I like BM in Turf War, personally, where his ball-of-control can really wreak havoc. I find this ability most useful so that you can use the Shinobi for early Turn 1/2 scheme-marker drops for things like Protect Territory, and then be able to quickly rush them back into the fray once BM has established some control.  It can have situational usefulness beyond that, but I see that as it's primary function to me.

 

So, with all of that considered...I don't think they're bad choices for 6ss.  They're reasonably durable with decent stats, middle-of-the-road Wds, and a great defensive trigger (for their cost range).  On top of that I think they're combat capabilities are also underrated and they have some pretty solid, though finnicky, mobility to abuse.

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