Thrown Weapons

[apHywel]

Made a scrapper for our first campaign and was looking to be a knife expert.  Bought myself a couple of bowie knives for melee but could not find any thrown weapons apart from the gate spear which is definitely not want I wanted.  The customised weapons rules have the thrown modifier for 1$ but was not clear if that could be added to any weapon or just the customised ones.  That would make a custom blade throwing weapon cost 16$  (not to mention doing more damage than a bowie knife).

 

Any chance we will see some official rules for throwing knives and tomahawks since they are mentioned in the thrown weapon skill write-up ?

[Guest]

16 script for a throwing knife (or 13 script for a throwing tomahawk) seems like a ridiculously high price to pay for a thrown weapon, especially since you'd want to have multiples on your person to actually use them in combat. I wish that the "custom" table had an option for lowering damage as well, since then you could reduce the damage at a reduced cost.

 

I'd just ask your Fatemaster if it's alright to make the Bowie knife thrown, or to write up some stats for throwing knives.

[Kadeton]

One thing that we should probably all resign ourselves to as early as possible is that this is a first edition which was written under extreme time pressure - there are going to be a hell of a lot of things for which the best answer is "house-rule it".

 

I think it would be perfectly reasonable to create a throwing knife doing 1/2/3 damage, priced at 2-3 scrip.

 

Custom weapons are pretty daft - they're either free from your starting pursuit and stupid overpowered, or they're completely unaffordable.

[Mako]

Custom blade seems more like a sword to me, hence the damage profile and cost.

I'm not sure how needing to ask your FM if you can add the thrown feature to Bowie knives, buying them for 3 scrip each, is an indication that the books are in need of endless house rules. It's an RPG, there's always going to have to be some give because it's a flexible narrative system.

And that in fact would be my answer - if I was FMing, I'd just say 'sure, add the cost of thrown to the knives'. No fuss, no problem.

[Kadeton]

I'm not sure how needing to ask your FM if you can add the thrown feature to Bowie knives, buying them for 3 scrip each, is an indication that the books are in need of endless house rules. It's an RPG, there's always going to have to be some give because it's a flexible narrative system.

 

Thrown weapons are the tip of a huge iceberg of house rules that will be necessary for most games to run. Not sure how your characters and sessions have gone, but so far I haven't seen a single character created that didn't uncover a rules problem or require some form of house-ruling. And that's fine, it's to be expected under the circumstances, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it.

[Mako]

I've not actually had that happen much, I think when I was last planning a campaign only one of my players needed a custom tweak to the rules, and the final copy contained much the same tweak (after we discussed it with Mack on the ttb test forum).

Most of what we've wanted to do has been pretty much covered, I certainly wouldn't say that it needs any more creative rule tweaks than any other RPG I've played.

[Kadeton]

I certainly wouldn't say that it needs any more creative rule tweaks than any other RPG I've played.

 

That's probably true. I think a lot of other RPGs are much more focused in scope, whereas Malifaux is a deliberate mix of a lot of different genre elements with a huge amount of source material to draw from. That encourages people to think outside the box, and presents an impossible task for this kind of system to try to meet the requirements of a world where anything and everything can happen. Not to mention that it's shackled by needing to be somewhat compatible with the miniatures game. In other games you might not see the invisible walls around the scope of character creation because you're always going to be working within the boundaries - in Through the Breach, I've been running into them constantly.

 

I suspect the vast majority of the lacking options will be filled out as further books are released, so I'm quite happy to wait. I still think there are some systems that are fundamentally broken in their current form (like the whole Magic section, basically) and I'm not sure what will happen with those.

[necroon]

As an avid and regular RPG player TTB is in a great place for its first rule set.

Everyone should keep in mind that all rule sets are guidelines and that the GM/DM/Story Teller and their groups should always ignore written rules if they don't make sense or don't work for them and improvise to improve the gaming experience for everyone.

[Ratty]

Try running a Goblin Inventor in D&D and you quickly run up against there being no rules for making new gizmo, and no class for inventor in the core game. And then there are conjoined twins, couldn't find rules for that in D&D either.

 

There is normally something you have to make some rules for when you run a campaign..

[Kadeton]

Try running a Goblin Inventor in D&D and you quickly run up against there being no rules for making new gizmo, and no class for inventor in the core game. And then there are conjoined twins, couldn't find rules for that in D&D either.

 

There is normally something you have to make some rules for when you run a campaign..

 

D&D doesn't even have invisible walls in character creation - it's got massive, obvious, unbreakable walls with huge signs on them saying RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. The game design flags from the outset that there is no flexibility in character creation.

 

(As an aside, I don't think Goblin Inventor was a particularly common fantasy trope until World of Warcraft featured them. They're certainly not common in the Howard/Lieber/Moorcock-esque stuff that D&D tries to evoke. Playing conjoined twins would be pretty neat though.)

 

Through the Breach doesn't do that - it prides itself on the flexibility of its character creation. If you make that decision, you need to back it up with a system that's actually flexible. In my opinion, TTB had the ambition but not the time to properly achieve that goal, at least in the core books.

 

(I expect that in five years or so, the Second Edition of TTB will be amazing.)

[necroon]

Honestly I'm not sure the lack of throwing knives in the core book makes me think the Core Book isn't great but admittedly I'm not done looking through it and RPGs are very milage may vary: that's why there are so many of them. Like most RPGS I'm sure it will get an arsenal book or arms and equipment guide or something.

OFF TOPIC ALERT

The Dvati from Dragon Mag/Comp are twins but not conjoined... closest I can think of.

[Happy-Yeti]

I suspect the vast majority of the lacking options will be filled out as further books are released, so I'm quite happy to wait. I still think there are some systems that are fundamentally broken in their current form (like the whole Magic section, basically) and I'm not sure what will happen with those.

 

I've been looking through it recently, what do you think is so broken about the Magic section?

[Kadeton]

I'll probably start a new thread to talk about it in more depth at some stage, but the highlights are:

 

Soulstones make no sense, and break the economy. If you ever find an actual soulstone of any kind (anything that isn't dust), your wealth level jumps from pauper to billionaire. This value feels totally out of whack, since a crap stone might only be able to be used a few times a year but cost hundreds of times as much as the amount of dust that would be required to achieve the same effect. Also, there are none of the "special" soulstone variations that were talked about, and the effect of soulstones isn't even particularly significant unless you want to make a spell permanent.

 

Spellcasting on the fly is silly. If I've got a Ca of 6 and a 13 in my hand, I'll load up the spell with enough immuto to bring its TN up to 19. The system also allows for spells that are vastly more powerful than anything in the miniatures game - Rasputina would kill for a 3/4(b)/5((b) spell at Rg 10 without a gun icon that auto-paralyses anyone damaged by it, but that would be incredibly unbalanced... yet my current starting character casts spells like that all the time.

 

There's essentially no way to build Triggers onto spells for additional effects.

 

The Skill + Attribute variations across the spells lock you into certain choices rather than allowing for flexibility. You've got great Sorcery but you took high Cunning and dumped Tenacity? I guess you'll be taking Elemental Projectile instead of Elemental Engulf, then.

 

Only spellcasting classes actually get to start with spells - learning spells as anyone else requires your GM to hand you a grimoire with spells relevant to your character, along with a teacher. This removes the "flexible pursuits" approach to characters - there's no reason to switch into Graverobber unless you happen across a necromancy grimoire, have all the relevant stats at decent levels, can find someone to teach you a magical theory, and are prepared to spend ages putting points into Necromancy before you can actually have a good shot at casting anything useful. Bleeaaah. Easier just to keep advancing along your original concept, otherwise the rest of the party will leave you behind.

 

Speaking of magical theories, some of them are just broken. Play a Dabbler, and try to talk yourself out of taking Tradition Magic for an automatic [+] on all Sorcery checks - it's not like you were ever going to pick up Necromancy anyway. Try to talk yourself into taking the Guild one instead that means you can never raise your casting skill above 3. (You get a [+] against people with other magic theories! Oh wait, you could have had that against every target all the time, and be able to increase your skills as well.)

 

Similarly, play a Dabbler and take Hedge Magic. You can apply your chosen Elemental Immuto at no cost. Wait... can you do that more than once? Just how much Burning can this spell inflict, anyway? (Oh, and your starting Enchantment better be Elemental Weapon, because that's the only one you can ever cast. Not that it matters - you didn't put points into Enchanting, did you? Might as well rip that page out of your grimoire.)

 

That's off the top of my head, without having the PDF handy to reference, so apologies for any errors. You get the idea.

[Agnelcow]

Rasputina would kill for a 3/4b/5bb spell at Rg 10 without a gun icon that auto-paralyses anyone damaged by it, but that would be incredibly unbalanced... yet my current starting character casts spells like that all the time

 

Without getting into the other points raised, let's look at this spell.

 

Elemental Engulf: TN 5t, rg 5, Dg 1/2/3

+ Blast TN 7t, rg 5, Dg 1/2/3b

+ Blast TN 9t, rg 5, Dg 1/2b/3b

+ Blast TN 11t rg 5, Dg 1/2b/3bb

+ Increased Damage TN 13t, rg 5, Dg 2/3b/4bb

+ Increased Damage TN 15t, rg 5, Dg 3/4b/5bb

+ Alter Range TN 17t, rg 10, Dg 3/4b/5bb

+ Ice TN 20t, rg 10, Dg 3/4b/5bb, slows

+ Ice TN 23t, rg 10, Dg 3/4b/5bb, paralyzes

 

Even if a character starts with 3 Tenacity and 5 Sorcery, they are incapable of ever casting this spell. The spells requires 4 Immuto, meaning they must have 2 Grimoires (including one designed and assembled by the Fatemaster) and the Mastered Immuto Talent (a minimum of 3 Pursuit steps), but their stats still won't be high enough to cast this. If they try to lower the TN with more Immuto, they need to take Mastered Immuto again (a minimum of 6 total Pursuit steps). If they fulfill two steps of their fate and use both Aspect increases to boost their Tenacity, two cards can cast this spell. If they increase their aspects and also specialize in Sorcery to add a tome to their totals, 5 cards can cast this spell. So the spell requires 3-6 pursuit steps, two confrontations with fate, and direct assistance from the FM to function, and even then the spell is cast by ~9% of the cards in the deck. Still doable, especially since you can lower the TN by removing unnecessary Immuto, but not really something that happens "all the time".

 

Unless you circumvent that with Hedge Magic. The real problem with this spell seems to be that you can add two Ice Immuto for free, essentially knocking down the TN by six and removing the need for a talent and second grimoire. The three restraints on magic built into the system— TN, need for advancement, and Fatemaster intervention— are all bypassed with Hedge Magic's Magical Talent. A free Immuto is about on par with the bonus from other Magical Theories (which all come out roughly equal to a Talent), but the ability to ignore TN increases is not functionally mitigated by the need to only use spells with that Immuto since this kind of mage is focused on damage instead of utility anyway. Maybe if the talent allowed you to ignore the first TN increase from applying the Immuto it'd be less insane, but as is it's clearly out of line with other abilities. Despite generally being a very permissive GM, until this ability is given an errata, I'd have no problem either banning it or else striking the text about ignoring increases in TN.

[Kadeton]

Unless you circumvent that with Hedge Magic.

 

Bingo. Though in our game, we just treat it as being able to add the Immuto once for free, and then I reduce the TN by dropping Blasts or Range as necessary to fit the cards I have in hand.

 

(And of course, if you don't have the cards in hand, just make an impossible spell and spam it a few times - the Dabbler's talent lets you draw a Twist card for every spell you fail, so you can mill your deck all day.)

[Ad1]

Play with the group this issue came up with. After carefully looking over the weapons list and the writeup on thrown skill final result was.

 

Throwing Knife 1Melee 1/2/4 Thrown 3S

 

Weapon can be used in both melee and can be thrown at range of 3 x Throwing Skill.

 

Part of the issue arose because we don't believe you can add custom enhancements to non-custom weapons. While this isn't expressly stated some of the custom writeups actually state "X the custom weapons..." We also looked at where custom enhancements were added. In the firearms section it is right at the beginning and there are no 'Custom weapon" charts in the same we we find for melee.

 

<shrug> is just one of the things we've found that aren't expressly clear.

 

Another example would be how many custom enhancements can you add to a single custom weapon? Our FM has gone with one, although we think he'd let us add an 'embellishment' as a second since it doesn't carry a mechanical benefit. Because, yes making the assumption you can add multiple enhancements to a weapon you get some ridiculous numbers, especially when compared to the average damages done by most weapons/spells.

[Omenbringer]

<shrug> is just one of the things we've found that aren't expressly clear.

 

I would agree that TTB suffers a bit from lack of clarity. This is a bit surprising given the detail of some sections of the book.

 

 

Another example would be how many custom enhancements can you add to a single custom weapon? Our FM has gone with one, although we think he'd let us add an 'embellishment' as a second since it doesn't carry a mechanical benefit. Because, yes making the assumption you can add multiple enhancements to a weapon you get some ridiculous numbers, especially when compared to the average damages done by most weapons/spells.

 

I definitely agree that the customization rules (especially for the melee weapons) can lead to some seriously skewed profiles for a modest price increase. My personal favorite is this set up;

 

Custom Pole Arm, 10 Script

Enlarged, 7 Script

Extended, 5 Script

Folded Steel, 10 Script

 

32 Script nets you a 4, Damage 3/4/7 with a on the flip. For 20 script more you can make it Pneumatic as well and gain another on the damage flip. That's a lot of punch without considering any of the users talents or skill (which at the fourth step of the Pursuit Chain  can add the Specialized Skill and Critical Strike talents to the mix). The ranged weapon customization are a bit less troublesome however the custom grips are almost always worth it (especially on a Carbine fired with both hands which nets :+fate on the attack flip).

 

As far as how to handle multiple weapon customizations some common sense "house rules" are probably the way to go. A sword for example couldn't incorporate "folded steel" after forging though could possibly be "Enlarged" or "Extended". Firearms however could be customized after creation to your hearts content (Grips and Actions are drop in for the most part and even treatments can be applied after forging/ creation).

 

This is another reason I dont consider TTB a good fit for traditional "adventure gaming" where combat is common. As a "Story Telling" game where combat is rare though, it is fairly good.