Rotten Belles - a happier redux

[Fetid Strumpet]

The problem with that definition Csonti, is that it catches many models in its net. If we assume that your definition is a sign of models that are too strong then at least from what I've seen the following models are also too strong. Just as an example:

Slop haulers and bayou gremlins.

Guild austringers and witchling stalkers

Terror tots

I'm not arguing that they are, only that by your definition above they also fit your definition, as any time I have faced one of those factions those models show up with as much frequency as I've seen a belle show up in a resser list.

[Ratty]

I know I don't always use them, but even if I don't, having reasonable Wp is a decent choice against Rezers.

 

But I feel the reason you see Belles so often is not because they are OP'd, but more that they give something that Rezers are severely lacking, a presence at range. Almost every faction other than Neverborn can put out some kind of ranged offense. Neverborn get round this by generally being fast with things like leap, diving charge, nimble, obey being in their toolbox. Rezers generally don't have these tools so they get round the fact they have very little ranged presence with Belles. If they had models that were good at dealing damage at range, then the enemy would have to close with them to deal with it, and I feel the Belle would be a much less important piece.

[zFiend]

I know I don't always use them, but even if I don't, having reasonable Wp is a decent choice against Rezers.

 

But I feel the reason you see Belles so often is not because they are OP'd, but more that they give something that Rezers are severely lacking, a presence at range. Almost every faction other than Neverborn can put out some kind of ranged offense. Neverborn get round this by generally being fast with things like leap, diving charge, nimble, obey being in their toolbox. Rezers generally don't have these tools so they get round the fact they have very little ranged presence with Belles. If they had models that were good at dealing damage at range, then the enemy would have to close with them to deal with it, and I feel the Belle would be a much less important piece.

 

I feel this is a very solid point for the Belle's existence with ca8. 

 

Still I can understand the frustation of playing specific strategies and schemes which require you to hold in place, as with Belle's that's just not going to happen most of the time, you are not going to stay there, you are going to be running after some undead kindness. With Sybelle thrown in with the Not too banged up you usually can't even run back to the position if you would happen to have your AP's unspent.

 

Slop haulers

 

I would go as far as arguing the price vs utility on those guys (as well as Belles) The 5ss cost on those two model's to my personal opinion is way off.

[Somnicide]

All I have been playing against lately is Von Schill and his freikorps and I am lucky to get one success a turn.

[Ratty]

I just had a hilarious game where the Belle spotted Lady Lageia standing out in the open an Lured her into combat... Then failed to hit, then the crooked man failed to hit... Next turn she activated first gave herself Defensive +2, and then just sat their stopping Nicodem cheating his summoning, and dodging hits for 2 turns...

 

When Belles go wrong they can really go wrong.

 

Last time I ran Belles they lured in the opponents Peacekeeper, Poison was Transfusioned onto it.. McMourning ran in, fluffed his attacks.. the Peacekeeper won initiative and Red Jokered McMourning in the face for 11 Damage after reduction...  yeah... fun.. fun .. fun...

[brdparker]

Been following the thread for a while, some very interesting points.

 

 

I just had a hilarious game where the Belle spotted Lady Lageia standing out in the open an Lured her into combat... Then failed to hit, then the crooked man failed to hit... Next turn she activated first gave herself Defensive +2, and then just sat their stopping Nicodem cheating his summoning, and dodging hits for 2 turns...

 

When Belles go wrong they can really go wrong.

 

Last time I ran Belles they lured in the opponents Peacekeeper, Poison was Transfusioned onto it.. McMourning ran in, fluffed his attacks.. the Peacekeeper won initiative and Red Jokered McMourning in the face for 11 Damage after reduction...  yeah... fun.. fun .. fun...

 

This brings up a good one: if you're using the belles to lure opponents into the slaughter... you still need to slaughter them with something. Free attacks can be nice, but armor, healing, the deck playing against you, etc can mitigate the 1/2/4 (I think, no book handy) Dg spread.

 

There seems to be four different ways to use a belle's activation, three with Lure, and one with other objectives:

1. Get an enemy to another model to kill

2. Get your model into position/out of danger

3. Get an enemy away from a tactical/schemish point

4. Slow something

 

1 is the easiest to employ and most common, it seems. As noted, there are ways around it, such as low Wk (Lured my opponent's 3 Wk Hans the other day from a few inches beyond my DZ... wasn't very effective). Not to mention thatt anything worth luring in this manner typically has something to keep it alive, with exceptions, of course. The trick of the lurer is to determine which model make its actions worth it. The trick of the luree is to determine whether it's worth it to keep that model in LOS or hide it and have it work in the shadows. For example, playing arcanists against ressers, I always will plop the counterspell upgrade on my henchperson, period. I can't typically afford to pussyfoot around with my second-in-command.

 

2 is always nice, especially if McM flubbs attacks. Fate's not always kind.

 

3 is a big one, and I don't have a solid answer for it. Many objectives can be achieved with a (1) action fortunately, and there are faction tools that give LOS blockage (Nico's fog upgrade, NB's waldgeists... does stiched together still have the creepy fog?). It'll vary from faction to faction, but I feel like there's something to choose from (without having to "resort" to outcasts).

 

4's not to be ignored either, especially if you have Flurry/Rapid Fire models set up. I shut down a convict gunslinger that way the same game as the Hans lure. Mind you, I did get lucky on the flip.

 

All of these are negated by counterspell, which all arcanist henchpeople and several other in-faction models have access to. Outside of arcanists... dunno. It's good to strategize and read all of the cards in your chosen faction(s) from time to time. A good gunline gives ressers bullet envy as well. In the game with the Hans lure and Gunslinger slow, he had Von Schill with a gunline made of pure gold, and if he were more experienced and lucky, probably could have killed every pertinant model other than the belles before I reached him or severaly injured him. As it turned out, I knew what I was doing, but still... I feel bad for using Killjoy though .

 

Not saying anything about balance or whatever, because with the chatter about these guys, wyrd's probably going to respond at some point down the road, and I don't feel there's anything much more to contribute on that front. For strategy, as with all models try to figure out the activation archtypes and plan for them. With the belles, they just have more archtypes than most models of their cost.

 

EDIT: Though, if we are talking about balance, I had a thought, might lead to some discussion. What about a must-take trigger like one of these?

- Wait, its jaw's falling off : After succeeding against the target, it receives -2 Wk for the remainder of the round.

- Hold me back!   : After succeeding against the target it receives the following condition for the remainder of the round, "Held down: At any point during a move or push, if this model passes within 1" of a friendly model, the movement ends immediately."

[Mako]

In terms of Wyrd responding (and keeping this thread out of 'this is how to alter Belles' territory), Justin has already said they won't be seeing changes any time soon (if at all). They're not up for editing.

 

This thread is more to discuss experiences with them, thing they did or didn't do, so people can see what other metas are experiencing with belles.

[brdparker]

In terms of Wyrd responding (and keeping this thread out of 'this is how to alter Belles' territory), Justin has already said they won't be seeing changes any time soon (if at all). They're not up for editing.

 

This thread is more to discuss experiences with them, thing they did or didn't do, so people can see what other metas are experiencing with belles.

 

Yeah, I know that but it's fun to explore the mechnics of the game. If you feel like that was out of place, I apologize, but it was more of an afterthought. The crux of that post was to share my experiences.

 

Edit: He, I just applied the following condition to my previous post: "Afterthought: After this post has been resolved, but before other players have responded to it, whenever another player views it, immediately take a (0) Edit action to place as many scheme words as you wish in base contact with the last paragraph, to a maximum of 1 word for every 3 already present in the post. This condition can only be removed by Masters, Henchmen, and Admins. If this post is killed, sacrificed, or deleted, end this condition. If the edit is irrelevant to the conversation, the poster must make a Wp-12 check or his credibility suffers 3 Dg that cannot be reduced."

[Fetid Strumpet]

Just tossing something to consider into the mix. Keep in mind this information does not, in anyway prove anything one way or another, it just lends some data which suggests a result. It is NOT definitive, and I am not in anyway claiming it is.

 

 Three of the top 4 places at Adepticon masters event, played in the Chicagoland area, with a big mixed meta were won by three Arcanist players.

 

Was anyone from the play group of E.T.A. Hoffman or Sharpobjects at the event playing the Six Belle Spam list? I'm just curious if so if when they get back from Adepticon if they can give their thoughts on the masters event if they played in it.

 

Again this doesn't in any way, shape, or form prove that Belles are not OP. It doesn't, and in the long run those who believe so might still be proven right. Just as if a Belle Spam list had won it wouldn't prove there was a problem. But it does lend a very small, minuscule amount of support to the position they aren't. Only time will tell in aggregate what can be gleaned from this.

 

Just thought I'd mention the results as this was the first big mixed meta Tournament that has been played after the big argument about belles erupted, and it was played in the Chicagoland area, which I believe is the home turf of the group that originally brought this issue up.

 

If any of them were at the Tournament I'd love to hear their thoughts as to the lay of the field. 

[entropolous]

I was at played in the masters at Adepticon.  I don't know if there were any belle spam lists being played. I know I didn't face one (of course I spent most of my time jumping in and out of the kiddy pool, so don't take that as a good indicator).  I can say, though, that I did not hear any wailing and pulling of hair about the OP-ness of Belles between games, that was all reserved for wailing and pulling of hair about the OP-ness of the Mech. Rider.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I 'm not commenting on it's power level. Only commenting that I know my friend was using the Mechanical rider in most of his lists.

[DeleteAccount]

Is there a rundown of how the tournies went, what was mostly used and what were the lists? haven't paid much attention to the riders outside the dead one, is the mech as crazy as people are insinuating right now or more of a fringe "gotcha" case?

[zFiend]

Hm, why are people who think that the Belle spam list with 6 Belle's is OP using them with Seamus? Wouldn't it be off the chain with Nicodem, if 6 is OP wouldn't something like 12 be like OP on steroids? Or am I missing something?  

[dgraz]

Is there a rundown of how the tournies went, what was mostly used and what were the lists? haven't paid much attention to the riders outside the dead one, is the mech as crazy as people are insinuating right now or more of a fringe "gotcha" case?

I'm curious about that as well. What was the master? What was the rider doing that was crazy?

[PolishSausage]

From last topic that got so heated it had to be closed we heard a lot of people say that the terrain we use does not cover 50% of the board. Here are some examples of TOURNAMENTS terrain. Please start photo-shopping 50mm bases in to see if spacing is adequate or not for bells to lure people across the entire table

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xvqZ39aEZ0

[AgrilusHunter]

Come now. That video is an excellent example of just how varied the terrain was at the tournament. Yes, some of the tables were sparse (the swamp table in particular), but many had more than the required terrain. Not to mention there was a good mix of terrain types on many of those tables. In the end the TO already posted a great explanation for the terrain at the tournament here. Basically they were not trying to create balanced terrain on every table as much as they were trying to foster variety. (Plus they worked with what they could get). I think it looks really neat and I wish I could have been there!

[RagingRodian]

Been following this thread and the previous one with interest. I wouldn't consider myself to be good enough to be a member of the "Chicago Crew" but I do get to play against and with them, so perhaps I can simply be known as a "known associate" instead?

I have played about 8 games against Ressers using 3+ Belles, led by Nicodem, Molly, Seamus, and McMourning. I have played a handful of games against Ressers not spamming Belles too. I completely agree with the assessment that Belles are a problem.

Remember, we are talking about a 5 stone minion here that can be summoned, not about a master/henchman/enforcer. A minion. So far I have made a few observations about this minion.....

You only have to have a minimum of 25% of your table covered in terrain, 50% at most. That is straight from the book. If you are needing to stack, overload, or specifically choose certain terrain types based on a 5 stone minion....something is wrong.

If you are having to change or stack your crew as soon as you heard that you would be facing Ressers based on having to counter a 5 stone minion...something is wrong.

If you have to start a whole meta discussion based on countering the OP and NE levels of a 5 stone minion......something is wrong.

I know, in theory, there are no cuddles in the works for these models. I know we are supposed to pretend like we aren't discussing needing to change the Belles and how they should be changed. But there does come a point where you need to talk about the elephant in the room. Personally, I support the idea that they should be only CA 6 on their Lure- that is more than fair.

Regarding the meta surrounding taking certain models when you know you are facing Belle spam, I would repeat what I said about the Mechanical Rider. The rules are written so you should not even know that you are facing Belles, let alone Belle spam, and who is leading them until you have already taken your crew...and then it is too late. Remember, after declaring factions you choose your crew in secret. If you know before choosing your faction and crew that you are facing Belles you are lucky, but you can't use that as a basis for strategy as that is not how the rules are written. If you assume that you are facing Belle spam...and something else comes out of your opponent's figure case....you may have just dug yourself into a bigger hole. Even if there are no Belles on the table to start with you may very well see them appear later on. Doh!

I know the argument has been put forth that Ressers need Belles as a "ranged counter". But do Ressers really need Belles with an ridiculously high cast stat to counter ranged crews? Remember, the ranges on guns in Malifaux are..lets just say very conservative, and believe it or not the range on the Lure is actually the same as the base range of sniper rifles in the game. Yikes. Ressers can also counter ranged crews with spirits and Crooked Men and fast moving Necropunks. They can use Russian WWII tactics- keep shooting them, we will make more. They can take cheap chaff, get them killed upfield, and then turn the corpses into something even more horrible. Ressers don't actually need Belles with a hugely powerful Lure as a counter to ranged crews.

You can try to use terrain as a counter, but as Lure is not a push all you have to do is see the model to hit them. To win games you have to come out, like it or not. Even if you do hide from currently placed Belles more can be summoned elsewhere- and even when slowed they can still Lure. Hiding really isn't an option.

People have mentioned taking models that you don't "want" to Lure because they explode or are horrible killing machines. But this isn't really a drawback. You are being forced to have to move you cool explodey/killy models to where your opponent wants them to go to kill what he wants you to kill. Even if you slaughter the foolish Belle that brought you there they can just be raised again (muahahaha!) or turned into something even more horrid in hand to hand- I have had Drowned and even Hanged dropped on me in this way. Suckage!

Sure, Belles are just ok in combat. But they do get Pounce. They can hand out Slow. They have a trigger on their spammable Lure that makes the victim discard cards. Ignoring synergy with other models, Belles still take a beating and tie up other models. They also don't necesssarily have to kill other models- just prevent them from scoring. There is a very important difference there.

Concentrating on how Lure works on the enemy also ignores a big tactical use for Lure- moving your own models. In a game that relies so heavily on positioning this is huge, and a Ca of 8 makes this trivial to pull off.

Did I mention they are just 5 stone minions?

[Fetid Strumpet]

And yet in the first big tournament with the first real big mix of metas, with the topic of Belles are too strong fresh in the minds of at least those who frequent the forums, ressers didn't even place in the top 4. Again remember this doesn't PROVE that there isn't an issue that needs fixing, but it does lend a very small amount of support to that position.

As you were at adepticon and just made a very lengthy post about how the mechanical rider isn't OP, even though this is the first data point we have that gives a very small data point which indicates this might be so. Would you care, in a purely theoretical manner to speculate as to why ressers, with access what some in the thread seem to think is the most Op model in the game, given that there are no threads to cuddle anything else yet except the m rider, did't finish in any spot in the top 4?

Again to stress I am not claiming that adepticon results are definitive or do anything but suggest small support to any position, but I'm personally interested in a completely honest way as to the impressions as why the results we got went the way they did, especially as this tournament was held I believe right near the area where the meta that originally brought up this issue with the nearly invincible belle spam list was located. Though I could totally be misremembering it I recall that someone from that group said they would be playing that list in the tourney. Did anyone play against it and would care to comment?

Also keep in mind that given the synergies involved in MALIFAUX in some cases, especially when we are talking about minions, simple fixes are not necessarily just as easy as just changing one model, which is part of the reason, in my opinion, that last edition when changes came they came so slowly. Its not as simple as just saying change this one thing and they will be fine. For example consider what the net effect of actually dropping the belles Ca to 6 does to other models. For one thing it will severely impact on how survivable Seamus is. Seamus was balanced and tested with belles able to heal him with the reliability they currently have, dropping that down to 6 impacts how easy he is to kill and also impacts the balance of his limited upgrades. If Seamus can't count on the healing he can right now, then the bag becomes much less of a choice then taking the reputation which not only restored the effective Ca of the belles lure, but also gives him a ranged spell that can heal.

Consider a philosophical argument that I personally have heard made that steam arachnids are OP. A 4 ss summonable minion does not need armor +2 and df 6, with the ability to reduce a models df by 1 just for being in b2b.

Making them armor 1 and df 4 like other arcanist constructs would be far more fair. But if that was done it would affect Ramos in a large degree because his abilies in the game are largely dependent on the stats of the arachnids.

Consider the witchling stalker, which when I face guild lists is about as ubiquitous as belles are. What if someone made the argument that a minion as cheap as they are and also summon able shouldn't be able to not only have a decent dmg profile with ml 6 on their swords, cause automatic burning when they hit, explode for dmg doing more burning, and on top of that can remove conditions with ease , well that's too powerful for a minion to have. They should be ml 5 like death Marshals and only cause burning on a trigger which isn't baked in. And if that change is made it wouldn't only affect the stalker, it would effect Sonnia as well as part of her whole balance is in assuming her minions will be putting burning out there for her to blast to.

Now we can certainly hold opinions that Seamus, Ramos, and or Sonnia are also OP and that this change would do much to mitigate them, but the point is in all these instances these masters and abilities made it through who knows how many months of closed testing, and approximately 2 months of open testing, and are at a point where Wyrd deemed them to be desirable at, and that if a fix is needed with one of their synergistic minions it isn't going to be as simple a task of just changing a unique enforcer who isn't tied as heavily into the mechanics of any master.

I'm not claiming that nothing might not need changing if PROVEN to be an issue, but the fact is it needs to be proven. I personally have gigantic issues with Lynch, the darkness, and illuminated, as well as Nekima, and while I personally think all of them need fixing I would vociferously argue against it if wyrd came out tomorrow and said they were going to change them. Like it or not they got through the process and if the game is going to survive it needs to have stability. Problems need to be fixed, but only when it is demonstrated to a much higher degree of support then is currently possessed can any such changes be made. While I personally have encountered huge issues with the aforesaid models there is not enough proof on a wide scale to justify any change to any model in the game at this point, not even the m rider.

[Aluwin]

While I troll the forums quite a bit I haven't posted in quite some time...Having just played a league match using Seamus with a Belle meat grinder I thought I'd spend some time looking through my other crews to figure out ways to counter this type of list.

 

Quick background on game...40 ss, against Brdparker with Marcus who I believe used two waldgeists, The Captain, a raptor and the totem.  I had 2 belles, 2 doxies, and Toshiro with the totem.  This was the first time using Seamus with wave 2 models.  We both knew the Master and strats/schemes ahead of time.  Squatters Rights, Assassinate, Bodyguard, Murder Protege, Outlank, LiTS.

 

To make a long story short on turn two I had brought Seamus up as bait in front of my belle/Toshiro bubble.  Marcus and friends charged in and brought Seamus down to a couple of wounds.  With one doxy/belle companion activation I healed Seamus nearly back to full and killed Marcus through almost a full hand and 6 soulstones.  I accomplished this mostly due to knowing he had used red joker and I used it with doxy on the dance first action to give marcus -flips.  From there it was a flurry of +flip pounce attacks verse -flip Marcus despite the fact that he had turned Seamus and Toshiro into beasts.  He conceded there after seeing that.

 

Was pretty brutal and vicious, but I think like lists in all the various miniatures games I've played it has strong synergy and can catch people off guard due to the efficiency of AP spending, but I like facing these sorts of challenges so I gave some thought to what I would do across from it assuming it wasn't a complete surprise to me.  The key here I think is that it does force you to play its game as opposed to ignoring it and playing your own, but I think this would be true of any sort of spam type list.

 

So here are the various ways that I think people should consider trying in an effort to counter belles...not coincidently arcanists have access to most of these.

 

Hard Counters

Counterspell-upgrade for ironsides/enforcers rare2?  Can't ever Lure.

Laugh off or similar type ability-Sidir Sensi, Colodi, Hoffman are ones I saw with abilities that forbid pushes and such.  Can't ever Lure.

 

Passive Defenses

-flips, Stubborn(number of models), -to Ca auras(couple of models)-Makes it much harder with no cheating, forces focus actions which cuts into the ap efficiency

Defensive Stance or other +flips to wp/def - Not a total solution but again cuts into the efficiency and doesn't end at end of turn

Armor/Damage Reduction - Similar to above

Exploding/Bloated Stench/Black Blood/Riposte triggers- Especially combined with Armor taking 1 damage from a belle to put out 3 or 4 to the surrounding ones cuts into the ap efficiency and makes the pounce train a losing proposition

DF/WP push triggers -  Mostly on masters but obv if you aren't within 1" you don't get pounced

Manipulative/Horror - Mostly manipulative here, if you time your activation orders well if they're forced to make those checks on every lure/attack it basically cuts that ap efficiency in half, and if its failed on the lure itself you lose all the attacks.

 

Active Defenses

Blasts - Never found this to be all that worthwhile but its an option

Pulse pushes....couple models with the ability to push things away in a burst...if belles aren't close its much less efficient

LOS- obviously blocking LOS helps but in my experience really hard to do and at some point you have to try to score

Using your own models bases to reduce movement and force things around, having high model count...luring 4 pt minions is sort of underwhelming and again not terribly efficient.

 

From my standpoint most of these are far from perfect solutions but combining as many of these as possible when facing ressers can really cut into that combo power, and while even without those pounce combinations I still think belles are good they become a lot less overwhelming.  The other thing to consider is I don't think you have to pay any real penalty to get these abilities so even if not facing belles the models these abilities come on are still pretty solid.

 

Anyway, my 2c in a vacuum.

[Clement]

To make a long story short on turn two I had brought Seamus up as bait in front of my belle/Toshiro bubble. Marcus and friends charged in and brought Seamus down to a couple of wounds.

It would have been interesting to know his scheme choices. One cannot look at that scheme pool and that list and not know exactly what will happen if I engage Seamus with that Marcus crew. It does look to be incomplete though.

[Aluwin]

I believe we both had revealed assassinate and murder protege....we're not particularly subtle...

[RagingRodian]

Yeppers Fetid, I was at Adepticon. I have been there since the beginning....lets just say that it is very different now!

Not quite sure about making a post about the Mechanical Rider not being OP. I was talking about how you can't just talk metas and theory to prove that a model isn't unbeatable or isn't a problem as, with (going purely by the book) after declaring factions you have no idea exactly what you will be facing in that faction, meta and theory starts falling apart. Not saying that theory and meta can't help, and yeah you should have an idea how you could potentially counter any model thrown at you, but when it comes down to it there are half a dozen masters that all play differently, who in turn play differently based on upgrades and synergies in the crew, as well as a few dozen henchmen/minions/totems/enforcers, plus the potential for mercs. Mix in varying play styles and schemes/strats and yeah, meta can only do so much. What it really comes down to is how much trouble is the model under these conditions?

I can't give a serious assessment about the Mechanical Rider as I have never played against one. However, when you have the #2 undefeated player from the Masters saying you should probably watch the model, and on paper it has some fighting ability, can summon its weight in new models, gets tougher as the game goes on, can engage in scheme marker shenaningans, and gets to engage in cards shenanigans....I am seeing red flags.

Going back to Adepticon, perhaps I can give some insight about the lack of Belle spam in the top lists. First off, saying "play Belle spam so we can play Belle killing lists so we can see if they are a problem" has already thrown off the meta, and is a big incentive NOT to play Ressers/Belles. That isn't a fair comparison. The main Chicago master of Belle spam lists couldn't go to Adepticon this year. Lots of people like bringing new crews/armies to Adepticon (myself included) so maybe people wanted to play something different. Finally, while Belle spam lists seriously kick ass they are annoying to play against and, I am guessing, not very interesting to play with over and over.

[Clement]

I believe we both had revealed assassinate and murder protege....we're not particularly subtle...

Now even more so he did a VERY risky thing; attempting to drop Seamus in one or two activations before your incredibly obvious trap snapped shut on him.

I also dont know arcanists very well but that list looks VERY strange for his selected schemes. It's weirdly strong against ranged attacks and kind of short on killing power.

[brdparker]

The idea was made off a false assumption, so that has to be taken into consideration. I'd actually created what I thought was an anti-belle list.

 

- The Waldgeists were to be used to block LOS (found out first turn they don't do that anymore)

- The Captain could run the strat on the front line without fear of luring from Counterspell

- Marcus could down Toshiro without too much difficulty by hiding behind the Waldgeists' forests.

 

Obviously, that didn't work, for reasons stated but that was the idea, work my way up the middle conservatively but for the Cap, turn the strat markers, and then rush out with Marcus and beat the snot out of Toshiro sometime around T4 or 5. Essentially, I misjudged my own AP efficiency. I thought I would have enough to fulfill the tasks ahead, and that I could avoid the belle list easily with the setup. Once I found out my error, what I failed to think of was defensive stance, which Marcus could have put to very good use. And I didn't know/didn't factor in Seamus' healing. Perhaps a forfeit was premature in retrospect. I know for next time.

[Ratty]

I think the important thing when facing Belles is activation control.. the enemy is wanting to drag out your big model and destroy it. The later in the turn you give them a decent target the less they can do.

 

Case in point a game I played earlier in the week, He had asked me to play Seamus as he hadn't faced him yet. I was running 2 Belles. 1st thing he did was activate his rail golem, power it up and charge it across the board.. That meant I could lure it in and had the entirety of my force left to activate to take it apart.

 

Now if he had activated his smaller stuff first, I could have lured them in, but then his Rail Golem would be free to move, or I could wait, in which case I would have to hope I got initiative so the Rail Golem couldn't activate and bash up my crew.